Indian pilots will fly Russian FIFTH GENERATION FIGHTERS

[SR-91]

A low number suggests that the Su-35s are not meant to replace or even complement any existing fighter. A purchase of 100+ airframes, as what happened with the Su-30MKK, would speak of something else.



And what is this assertion based on?



And the J-10C can take on the PAK FA, if needed. See how easy it is to propose theses without deliberation?

Answer is simple, j20 lacks a proper engine and radar isn't up to standards yet. This is the reason China is buying SU-35 and only in low numbers. After working on multiple 5th generation fighter, why else would you go backward? It's because you need something.

 

[Akasa]

Answer is simple, j20 lacks a proper engine

With the current Al-31 turbofans, the J-20 would have a comparable T/W ratio with the Eurofighter Typhoon. With its intended WS-15s, the J-20 would have a significant upper hand.

and radar isn't up to standards yet.

And this is based on...?

This is the reason China is buying SU-35 and only in low numbers. After working on multiple 5th generation fighter, why else would you go backward? It's because you need something.

Nobody other than the PLAAF brass knows why the Su-35 is being purchased. However, as aforementioned, the miniscule quantity, continued testing of the J-11D, and rumors of an avionics retrofit do not square with allegations that the purchase precipitated because of a need for capability.

 

[Kraitcorp]

A couple of mistakes with this: (1) the J-11A is not the same as the vanilla Su-27SK that was delivered to China (first in kits, then fully built in China) but rather a further-upgraded variant, and (2) it was the Chinese who chose to discontinue the production of the J-11A in prospects of a new J-11B variant.

LOL these chinese lie outright .

J-11A - Chinese/Russian assembled Su-27SK from Russian-made kits. They were later upgraded with Missile Approach Warning. Unconfirmed upgrades include improved cockpit displays, and fire control systems for R-77/PL-10 missiles. The russian stopped sending further kits.

China has apparently copied the Russian Su-30MK2 and is operating it as the J-16 (
24+ reported built)
http://www.strategypage.com/dls/art...ail-Another-Russian-Jet-Fighter-5-14-2012.asp

Now China wants only 24 Su-35S from russia. the russians are stalling the sale they are not desperate

 

[zebra7]

Nobody other than the PLAAF brass knows why the Su-35 is being purchased. However, as aforementioned, the miniscule quantity, continued testing of the J-11D, and rumors of an avionics retrofit do not square with allegations that the purchase precipitated because of a need for capability.

Nobody other than PLAAF brass knows that how Chinese Radar tech. is superior or equivalent to the Russian, and J-20 is comparable to PAK FA, or F-35, or J-11D is superior to SU-30MKK, or J-10C can face FGFA. But you knew every thing.

I tell you its the mentality, a mentality to copy paste the existing popular weapon -- nope the easy route, Buy the technology and the blue prints, so that the time consumed to developed it could be removed. For export, just copy the popular weapon system, and propaganda it to be superior to the same.

Do you really believe, reverse engineering is so easy, its rather more costly, so best thing is to buy the IPRs and Blue print from the countries like Ukraine, Bellarus e.g Buy Korsun Cruise Missile (6 missiles illegally smuggled) and buy its blue prints of its subsystems, actuators, Engines, components, Decompile the embebded source code from the EEPROMs with the Decompiler freely available in Internet, and make another variant, because many people don't know, the biggest hurdle in the development of the Cruise missile is the COST of the Testing, and if you have a tested and reliable System and design, you just jumped to the ladder, And take the example of SU-27 Reverse Engineering -- Bull shit, the whole Blue print of the Airframe design, hydraulics, metallurgical was bought by China from Ukraine and even few old airframe of not only SU-27 but also SU-33. But the tech. of Engine and Radars are in deep inside Russia, and its were you are falling behind.

 

[Akasa]

LOL these chinese lie outright .

Wow, I was hoping for a tad longer debate before the expected insults came along.

J-11A

- Chinese/Russian assembled Su-27SK from Russian-made kits. They were later upgraded with Missile Approach Warning. Unconfirmed upgrades include improved cockpit displays, and fire control systems for R-77/PL-10 missiles. The russian stopped sending further kits.

The J-11A refers to a mid-life upgrade, equipping two MFDs in its cockpit and featuring the ability to fire new R-77 missiles, and differs from the original J-11 variant that were assembled from kits and later produced indigenously.

China has apparently copied the Russian Su-30MK2 and is operating it as the J-16

http://www.strategypage.com/dls/art...ail-Another-Russian-Jet-Fighter-5-14-2012.asp

http://www.strategypage.com/dls/art...ail-Another-Russian-Jet-Fighter-5-14-2012.asp

The J-16 was developed from the J-11BS, which use subsystems that are uniquely distinct from those of any Sukhoi.

Now China wants only 24 Su-35S from russia. the russians are stalling the sale they are not desperate

Are the Russians stalling, or are the Chinese simply being hesistant? The rhetoric and pattern of these allegations suggest the latter.

Nobody other than PLAAF brass knows that how Chinese Radar tech. is superior or equivalent to the Russian, and J-20 is comparable to PAK FA, or F-35, or J-11D is superior to SU-30MKK, or J-10C can face FGFA. But you knew every thing.

I have made none of the aforementioned claims. Please don't place words in my mouth.

I tell you its the mentality, a mentality to copy paste the existing popular weapon -- nope the easy route, Buy the technology and the blue prints, so that the time consumed to developed it could be removed. For export, just copy the popular weapon system, and propaganda it to be superior to the same.

The suspicion of a "mentality", if such a manifestation exists at all, is not evidence that copying occurred.

Do you really believe, reverse engineering is so easy, its rather more costly, so best thing is to buy the IPRs and Blue print from the countries like Ukraine, Bellarus e.g Buy Korsun Cruise Missile (6 missiles illegally smuggled) and buy its blue prints of its subsystems, actuators, Engines, components, Decompile the embebded source code from the EEPROMs with the Decompiler freely available in Internet, and make another variant, because many people don't know, the biggest hurdle in the development of the Cruise missile is the COST of the Testing, and if you have a tested and reliable System and design, you just jumped to the ladder, And take the example of SU-27 Reverse Engineering -- Bull shit, the whole Blue print of the Airframe design, hydraulics, metallurgical was bought by China from Ukraine and even few old airframe of not only SU-27 but also SU-33. But the tech. of Engine and Radars are in deep inside Russia, and its were you are falling behind.

No, reverse engineering is exactly what you've described: difficult. The technology, subsystems, and supply chains, that differentiate the J-11X from any other Flanker, however, were not fruits of reverse engineering.

 

[CorporateAffairs]

Get them to "make In India".

 

[Rank]

LOL, risk compromising Russian security!!!!!!!!
What happens when their sold products gets copied everytime? Didn't Russia risk their national security by selling, the same country, S400 SAMS and SU-35s.

Don't worry, India will get more from FGFA than China will get from SU-35.

By the way, Russian defence industry is heavily dependent on India’s procurement.

Goof Admission: Inshort India is heavily dependent on Foreign military hardware (so called supa pooooowaaa)

 

[zebra7]

The suspicion of a "mentality", if such a manifestation exists at all, is not evidence that copying occurred.

Dude I can give you thousands of example from Google Search engine to bikes, cars, apple phones -- Chinese should be given Ginese World Record certificate for that.

No, reverse engineering is exactly what you've described: difficult. The technology, subsystems, and supply chains, that differentiate the J-11X from any other Flanker, however, were not fruits of reverse engineering.

I understand, it was the Chinese need to bring the technological barrier and difference in a quick time, and Chinese used its Money and took advantage of the former USSR disintegration and gets many strategically tech. from the CARs states.
India on the other hand have the advantage of having good relationship with almost every country, and excess to the testing labs, and the OEMs which could help.

But there is a disadvantage in India, and that is the Democracy and that's why there should be no comparison of India and China. For China, setting up a plant or a Lab, is just the matter of taking decision, but in India, even to acquire a land, could lead to the Court which could takes decades.

With Reverse Engineering means understanding the technology from the complete system needs time, money and much effort, but it should not be mixed with the building the system, by IPR violation, which Russia have demanding for its IPR violation fine. And why SU-35 deal to happen took so much time, is due to the IPRs issue. As far as copying Russian Engine, or the Radar is concerned, that the time have passed, when it could be so easily copied, and in reality shows that China have agreed to pay the price, and now no other systems of the Russian claimed IPRs would be exported. Don't feed yourself too much of the Propaganda blogs written by the Chinese serving officers, or the Western articles who over estimated Chinese systems too much to create the sensation.

Chinese can replace, the subsystems with its indegenous system, but it does not make J-11X different that the SU-27 variants like SU-30XXX

 

[dy1022]

J20 enters service in June 2016! indian in here still dreaming and waiting for overseas' XX YY ZZZ !

Typical indian, feeling good, talk a lot but done nothing at the end !

 

[Akasa]

Dude I can give you thousands of example from Google Search engine to bikes, cars, apple phones -- Chinese should be given Ginese World Record certificate for that.

And, despite all those anecdotal (rather statistical) observations, what makes it so certain that the same is true for the J-11X and the Su-35 purchase?

I understand, it was the Chinese need to bring the technological barrier and difference in a quick time, and Chinese used its Money and took advantage of the former USSR disintegration and gets many strategically tech. from the CARs states.
India on the other hand have the advantage of having good relationship with almost every country, and excess to the testing labs, and the OEMs which could help.

There is no denying that Chinese evaluation of Soviet technology during the 1970/80/90s contributed in paramount ways to the development of their domestic industries, but to extrapolate that notion to modern platforms is a stretch.

But there is a disadvantage in India, and that is the Democracy and that's why there should be no comparison of India and China. For China, setting up a plant or a Lab, is just the matter of taking decision, but in India, even to acquire a land, could lead to the Court which could takes decades.

Democracy dictates the time and the personnel involved in such decisions involving R&D, not necessarily the throughput or the knowledge base needed to perform it.

With Reverse Engineering means understanding the technology from the complete system needs time, money and much effort, but it should not be mixed with the building the system, by IPR violation, which Russia have demanding for its IPR violation fine. And why SU-35 deal to happen took so much time, is due to the IPRs issue. As far as copying Russian Engine, or the Radar is concerned, that the time have passed, when it could be so easily copied, and in reality shows that China have agreed to pay the price, and now no other systems of the Russian claimed IPRs would be exported. Don't feed yourself too much of the Propaganda blogs written by the Chinese serving officers, or the Western articles who over estimated Chinese systems too much to create the sensation.

The quagmire of the Su-35 deal has little to do with "IPR" issues; Sukhoi has no obligation to sell its Su-35 if it so much as suspects of a potentiality for reverse engineering. Take a look at the discourse between Russian exporters and their Chinese counterparts; it is very apparent that the former are more enthusiastic about the latter buying than vice versa.

Chinese can replace, the subsystems with its indegenous system, but it does not make J-11X different that the SU-27 variants like SU-30XXX

Nobody is claiming that the J-11X is not a member of the Flanker family; nuances in semantics are not the issue here.

 

[zebra7]

J20 enters service in June 2016! indian in here still dreaming and waiting for overseas' XX YY ZZZ !

Typical indian, feeling good, talk a lot but done nothing at the end !

Making an Airframe is an easy task, but difficult job and important factor in the 5th Gen. fighter plane is the Powerplant, and the Radar, and avionics.

And, despite all those anecdotal (rather statistical) observations, what makes it so certain that the same is true for the J-11X and the Su-35 purchase?

Because despite all those anecdotal mountaneous claim by the Chinese, they still lags in Avionics, Radars, Optronics, IRST, Sensors, and Engine tech.

There is no denying that Chinese evaluation of Soviet technology during the 1970/80/90s contributed in paramount ways to the development of their domestic industries, but to extrapolate that notion to modern platforms is a stretch.

That's why they used all methods whether illegal, smuggled, or shamelessly openly IPR violation.

Democracy dictates the time and the personnel involved in such decisions involving R&D, not necessarily the throughput or the knowledge base needed to perform it.

Democracy dictates, that everyone have the equal rights, and anyone if he feels could challenge the govt. decission in court, and unlike One Rulling Party scheme everything is clear whether a break through or failure, because they have a country, and not that a country have a party (PRC), and a army to protects its existence (PLA).

The quagmire of the Su-35 deal has little to do with "IPR" issues; Sukhoi has no obligation to sell its Su-35 if it so much as suspects of a potentiality for reverse engineering. Take a look at the discourse between Russian exporters and their Chinese counterparts; it is very apparent that the former are more enthusiastic about the latter buying than vice versa.

B.S argument and yourself contradicting yourself. First declaring that the Sukhoi feels that the Chinese can copy or reverse engineer the tech. that saying that deal has little to do with IPR issues.

BTW it shows where Chinese are lagging, a country which have 2 5th Gen fighter plane in development, and the members of that country, who claims in PDF, that one of them is gonna mass produced in 2020. LOLZ

Nobody is claiming that the J-11X is not a member of the Flanker family; nuances in semantics are not the issue here.

DID China is paying for the IPR violation fees.

 

[Akasa]

Because despite all those anecdotal mountaneous claim by the Chinese, they still lags in Avionics, Radars, Optronics, IRST, Sensors, and Engine tech.

With respect to the Russians? Historical and recent evidence seems to suggest otherwise.

That's why they used all methods whether illegal, smuggled, or shamelessly openly IPR violation.

Most of the acquired Soviet technology was done via licensing, not smuggling or IPR bootlegging.

Democracy dictates, that everyone have the equal rights, and anyone if he feels could challenge the govt. decission in court, and unlike One Rulling Party scheme everything is clear whether a break through or failure, because they have a country, and not that a country have a party (PRC), and a army to protects its existence (PLA).

And it would be erroneous to assume that debate and internal opposition are nonexistent notions within a one-party state. Much more so within the context of an enterprise or research institution.

B.S argument and yourself contradicting yourself. First declaring that the Sukhoi feels that the Chinese can copy or reverse engineer the tech. that saying that deal has little to do with IPR issues.

You need to re-read my post. The slow pace of the deal has little to do with fear of IPR violations (this was an assertion made by reporters covering this saga) but rather the lack of an adequate, Chinese response.

BTW it shows where Chinese are lagging, a country which have 2 5th Gen fighter plane in development, and the members of that country, who claims in PDF, that one of them is gonna mass produced in 2020. LOLZ

The J-20 entered low-rate initial production in 2016.

DID China is paying for the IPR violation fees.

I'd like to see some evidence for that.

 

[NirmalKrish]

They sold us the downgraded quality weapon and even low quality that the one they sold to India while they kept the best front line weapon for themselves, copy low quality might limited Russia income but it didn't compromise Russia security but here we're talking the 5th gen fighter.

And yet despite the so called "low Quality" you still manage to copy those planes and fail miserably.

Good, India will have Pak Fa and we'll have F35.
We'll dominate the sky together

Remember also that the Americans wont think twice to sell the F35 all versions to US, so it could be a combined mix of F35 and PAK FA, if the need arises!

 

[zebra7]

With respect to the Russians? Historical and recent evidence seems to suggest otherwise.

Pls ellaborate it, what recent evidence ?

Most of the acquired Soviet technology was done via licensing, not smuggling or IPR bootlegging.

Most of the Systems was developed by USSR, and many subsystems are spread in many states, which are now independent countries, and Just show me what licensing did Chinese took for J-16 and J-15.

And it would be erroneous to assume that debate and internal opposition are nonexistent notions within a one-party state. Much more so within the context of an enterprise or research institution.

I means, that a simple nod by the leader of that party, is the final decision, and no one can challenge it. And when we talk of Indo-China that it means India-PRC Party, because in india Parties can change, but not the country.

You need to re-read my post. The slow pace of the deal has little to do with fear of IPR violations (this was an assertion made by reporters covering this saga) but rather the lack of an adequate, Chinese response.

Dude, did you ever realized, why Russia don't fear of such things with India, and is ready to give S-500, PAK FA, even when India have good relationship with the Western world. Why Russia didn't fear, when IAF took its SU-30MKI for Red flag exercise in U.S.A. Why Russia didn't fear, when IAF giving all insight and tactics and training to the Israeli Airforce pilots to fight MIG-29. Why russia didn't bothered for India to give its nuclear Sub. which India could pass its information to the U.S and the western world.

Answer it and You will get the answer.

The J-20 entered low-rate initial production in 2016.

Yeah Mass production in 2020, then why needed SU-35, the question still remains


And BTW this is not the thread to discuss those unrelated stuff, and keep discussion to FGFA, and IAF.

 

[Sergi]

With respect to the Russians? Historical and recent evidence seems to suggest otherwise.



I'd like to see some evidence for that.

Since you want evidence for everything why don't you backup your statement ???
How do you know Chinese tech in engine , radar , avionics is better than Russian.
Plz enlighten me. M all ears