Indian Newspaper Flies With MMRCA Ditch Story, Journalist Disowns

[majesticpankaj]

Gripen didn't meet the expected requirements of IAF and if you see the leaked swiss report Gripen is way behind Rafale in all departments

so what ...rafale is behind F-22, point is we should have the finances . we can get the gripen at a very low cost somewhere between 6-7 Billion USD. the rest of the amount we can spend on su mki and FGFA.

The money is there:

IAF to procure equipment worth $150 billion | India's first NewsPortal on Projects


By 2020 India will be spending more than $100BN a year on defence and the cost Rafale and FGFA deals will be spread out over decades.

it was few years back.. when we were doing reasonably good.. now we are in a recovery mode..can't afford that sort of investments

 

[SamBahadur]

so what ...rafale is behind F-22, point is we should have the finances . we can get the gripen at a very low cost somewhere between 6-7 Billion USD. the rest of the amount we can spend on su mki and FGFA.

I think you haven't understood IAF doctrine , they clearly needed a Medium range Combat Aircraft to supplement the Gap between upcoming lighter LCA Tejas and heavier Su-30MKI . Also the main reason was to fulfill the required 42 squadron strength as early as possible . As far as PAKFa is concerned it still needs plenty of years to the level of mass production .

 

[sancho]

Sir, I'm talking more broadly beyond the MMRCA- having an unbiased media is important to having a healthy democracy. Having a media on the payroll of foreign entities is dangerous for Indian society.

Does it really matter if the media is biased towards foreign lobbiest or national? I mean we all know that Indian politicians and parties have a lot of influence on Indian media too, heck we see Indian party followers even hunting journalists and privat peoples for their opinions on Facebook and Twitter. So you can't fight the one, without solving the other problem and imo the other national problem is the bigger issue!

To be really honest, my problem with Indian defence media is, the poor quality of journalism in general! We have more bloggers than actual journalists in the defence media and most of them are only aiming on sensational journalism too. Of course they should be unbiased, but they should have some credibility on their own too right? Shiv Aroor's Livefist blog, is considered as Indias's best defence blog, but he as a journalist that also works for news channels or papers is hardly one that can be taken seriously or? Ajay Shukla, PSG (although I am always interested in the specs and detail infos on arms or techs he have access to), idrw.org are good examples too, since their reports get much attention, while their conclusions often are very faulty. But as long as we the people jump on any "news" report of the Indian media, that is just aimed on hyping things, we won't get more credible journalism either.

"We" can only decide which newspapers we read, which news channels we follow, while the general influence on the media is decided much higher.

 

[Abingdonboy]

it was few years back.. when we were doing reasonably good.. now we are in a recovery mode..can't afford that sort of investments

This news was at the end of 2013, it is still relevant. The Indian economy had 2 bad years that is is now recovering from there is no reason to be pessimistic about the medium to long term.

 

[majesticpankaj]

I sincerely hope you read my post attentively and have followed the MMRCA saga.One of the prime benefits of the deal is TOT to provide a boost and an upgrade for our own military industrial complex.The Gripen will not meet that criteria as it is dependent on american technology and the americans will certainly not allow their tech to us when their own companies haven't won.This is considering that the US will even allow its technology to other countries.US has been historically very stingy with its tech.Not to even forget the elephant in the room,the sanction happy nature of US.Killing the LCA for the gripen will be the most oxymoronic move,considering we are trying to acquire tech to improve our own aero-space industry
I also hope you know that the equipment we buy from the US is not front-line level or spear head type,rather we mostly acquire logistical or maintenance equipment from them,which is exactly what the chinooks and c-130s are.The Apache deal is the exception rather than the norm.
lastly,I feel I do not need to point it out but I will do it anyway,going for gripen does not give us uniformity in our fleet that we cannot achieve with any of the other options,particularly the french bird.

if that is the case .. why we had evaluated the F16 and F 15

This news was at the end of 2013, it is still relevant. The Indian economy had 2 bad years that is is now recovering from there is no reason to be pessimistic about the medium to long term.

as per anthony we didn't sign the rafale deal last year because we didn't have the fund.. the things have not changed for better so far.

 

[JanjaWeed]

No way will deal be signed during his visit, it may be discussed in his visit but that's about it.

Ofcourse it won't be signed.. but the visit can hasten the process & ease the apprehensions on both sides to clear the path towards signing of the deal.

Agreed.


Don't know about that. As the IAF has said- their decision to go for the Rafale is "irreversible".

I think this is where IAF went wrong by giving Rafale the head start. They should have cleared the clauses before singling out Rafale for the deal. Had there been other vendors still in the fray. negotiations would have been that much easier for India. To select the aircraft & then negotiate the deal with a sole standing vendor would shift the advantage towards that sole supplier.

 

[sancho]

True, but the MoD and GoI are hardly going to want to go against the wishes of the military in such a manner. They have held a consistent line of giving the military what they want/need and they have stated they want to improve military-civlian relations- the IAF had made a compelling case for the Rafale and nothing else and the Def/Fin Minister (Jaitley) was said to be pleased with the finical side of the deal so I don't see any reason the MoD/GoI would go against these recommendations.

They can't go for IAFs "wishes" they have to take IAF's "suggestions" seriously and according their requirements and trials, as well as the commercial offer, the Rafale was the best choice (till 2012!!!) and not because IAF just wished to have the Rafale.
The government has to consider what the best for India would be and not only for IAF, this includes industrial advantage or political once too. We know that the older government had kept out political influence completelly out of the MMRCA decisions, just as their priority was on ToT/offsets for Indian industry.
We DON'T know what the new government has in mind so far and what Mr Jaitley says at the moment might have more importance from the point of view of the finance ministry, since he is only a stop gap defence minister. Personally, I think Modi has taken this decision to use him in front of the media, while taking decisions with the forces (maybe industry or foreign governments) on his own. He is bypassing ministers in other areas as well and a propper DM in charge now, could be difficult for him, but that's another topic.
Wrt MMRCA, I showed you why MoD/GoI could (imo even should) re-evaluate things, of the 2 shortlisted fighters. The 2 year delays which causes changes in the delivery time frame and the technical changes must be taken into consideration, to get the best package of advantages for India. Not to mention, that although the Rafale is still the best fighter for IAF, the French disappointed in the recent time, by showing that they keep seeing India only as an export customer, rather than seeing us a propper strategic partner for the Rafale.

 

[Ridd]

if that is the case .. why we had evaluated the F16 and F 15



as per anthony we didn't sign the rafale deal last year because we didn't have the fund.. the things have not changed for better so far.

American pressure(for the nuclear deal),a genuine interest to evaluate and consider american tech,not to forget get the best in the world for the competition.

 

[JanjaWeed]

don't you think we should look into saab's offer... griepen is also a formidable platform and it is 1/4 of price ?

My knowledge is very limited in this field.. & would be the last one trying to compare merits & demerits of two air crafts. However It's fact that Grippen was also the part of initial evaluation process along with five other vendors. IAF undertook one of the most rigorous evaluation process ever seen in selecting Rafale. So.. there must be a solid reason behind it to select Rafale over other 5 fighter planes!

 

[OrionHunter]

There are elements in the Indian media who are clearly on the payroll of certain foreign entities.

Well, you've answered the question already. They are vested interests - from Eurofighter Jagdflugzeug GmbH to SAAB to the middlmen to arms lobbies to politicians to bureaucrats and the paid media some of whose journalists have been bought over.

This has been going on since the day the contract was awarded to Dassault. There are people in HAL too who are in the mix, paid off by the European companies to try and scuttle the deal.

It's unfortunate too that Dassault has been taking all this propaganda lying down. They should have been more pro-active and settled issues in quick time. This dilly sallying is costing them dear.

 

[majesticpankaj]

My knowledge is very limited in this field.. & would be the last one trying to compare merits & demerits of two air crafts. However It's fact that Grippen was also the part of initial evaluation process along with five other vendors. IAF undertook one of the most rigorous evaluation process ever seen in selecting Rafale. So.. there must be a solid reason behind it to select Rafale over other 5 fighter planes!

but as per former IAF chief there is hardly difference among the different platforms

 

[majesticpankaj]

American pressure(for the nuclear deal),a genuine interest to evaluate and consider american tech,not to forget get the best in the world for the competition.

france has dismal record when it comes to price negotiation...

look at the price escalation for submarines

and we had bitter experience for mirage up gradation.. which will be stretching for 9 fcuking years...

with rafale they are doing the same.

 

[Ridd]

france has dismal record when it comes to price negotiation...

look at the price escalation for submarines

and we had bitter experience for mirage up gradation.. which will be stretching for 9 fcuking years...

with rafale they are doing the same.

Welcome to the arms world.The russians do it,everyone in the euros do it,the americans do it.Point is,unless you have your own mil-ind complex everyone will fleece you.The MMRCA is being used to take a few steps to remedy that by acquiring tech,manufacturing capability.

 

[sancho]

but as per former IAF chief there is hardly difference among the different platforms

Hehe, that was a polite statement after the rejection of 4 out of 6 fighters and not the reality. The costs are not the important point, but technical / operational benefits for IAF, as well as ToT/offset benefit for the Indian industry. In both these areas, the EF and the Rafale offer the best packages, therefor offer the most in return for the money we spend!

 

[majesticpankaj]

Welcome to the arms world.The russians do it,everyone in the euros do it,the americans do it.Point is,unless you have your own mil-ind complex everyone will fleece you.The MMRCA is being used to take a few steps to remedy that by acquiring tech,manufacturing capability.

that is why I'm supporting SAAB Gripen.. we can get a formidable platform at the fraction of price... rest of the money can be diverted for FGFA.

Hehe, that was a polite statement after the rejection of 4 out of 6 fighters and not the reality. The costs are not the important point, but technical / operational benefits for IAF, as well as ToT/offset benefit for the Indian industry. In both these areas, the EF and the Rafale offer the best packages, therefor offer the most in return for the money we spend!

Defense Minister Celso Amorim explained the reasons for the choice during a press conference on Wednesday: "The choice took into account performance, technology transfer and cost, not only for acquisition but also for maintenance. The decision was based on the best balance of those factors." And while Dassault Aviation SA (EPA:AM), the maker of the Rafale, mourns its losses and Brazilian senators get over the shock, Brazilians took to social media to make their feelings heard.

Brazilians Aren't Happy About $4.5 Billion Purchase Of Saab Gripen Fighter Jets