Indian Navy outgunned 1 to 4 as China steps up presence in Indian Ocean

[Basel]

AIP is not comparable as it lacks speed. Submarines operate in the principle of shoot and scoot. and with modern Hull mounted sonars once the sub fires it is dead meat. The top speed attained with AIP is 4 knots to 5 knots. That is not enough for the subamarine to escape. That is why Diesel electrics are now mostly used for sea denial instead of offensive warfare.

AIP lack speed???

@Penguin your opinion please.

Same claims as titanic?

They can't handle / defend against Chinese Missiles salvos if war happened.

 

[indianfighter1999]

They can't handle / defend against Chinese Missiles salvos if war happened.

whole plan fleet will be dead under sea before they reach Andaman & Nicobar, Chinese navy defenses will get shattered and saturated by 100s of brahmoses racing towards them from Andaman. No naval ships even latest aegis ships will get saturated by salvos of 20 odd supersonic missiles headed its way.

 

[Basel]

whole plan fleet will be dead under sea before they reach Andaman & Nicobar, Chinese navy defenses will get shattered and saturated by 100s of brahmoses racing towards them from Andaman. No naval ships even latest aegis ships will get saturated by salvos of 20 odd supersonic missiles headed its way.

They don't have to send ships to attack those islands, they can use salvos of LACMs and ALCMs from safe distance, if needed SLCMs from subs can be launched from safe distance.

Underestimating Chinese capabilities can be lethal mistake for India.

A question: does India have any AShM in class of YJ-100 (800km range) operational??

 

[Penguin]

China has large number of outdated diesel subs, a few noisy nuclear subs, and a training-aircraft carrier, numbers lie.

We won't allow the road there.

There is nothing non-operational about Liaoning. The only reason its called training carrier is because the Chinese didn't like their first carrier not being domestically constructed: its a symbolic term (and clearly, the Chinese will be learning the tricks of the trade first on this ship).

The older subs 033 and 035 are no good for ASW, given their noisiness. Nevertheless, the still make usefull antishipping platforms and force an opponent to take great care when moving about.

PLAN wil be barely able to deploy a couple of destroyers and submarines in IOR.
Their submarines are of such poor quality they can't move without support ships.
PLAN has laughably bad power projection capability.

They seem to be making good headway building replenishment ships (2x Type 901 AOE, 8x Type 903/A Fuchi AOR, 2 Type 905 AOE, 1x Type 908 AO, 5 Type 904 Stores ships) to support their expanding fleet of major surface units, which include (besides Liaoning and 4+2 Type 071 LPD and loads of LSTs):
2x 054 + 22x 054A (of which 16 active) = 24 (of which 18 active)
1x 051B, 2x 051C, 2x 052, 2x /Bs, x6 /Cs, x13 /Ds (5 active, 4 sea trials, 4 fitting out) = 26 (of which 18 active)
4 Sovremenny (being modernized)

This is not counting the older 051s and 053/H1/H2/H1Q/H1G/H2G/H3 that remain (H3s recently been modernized) pr the latest 055.

AIP is not comparable as it lacks speed. Submarines operate in the principle of shoot and scoot. and with modern Hull mounted sonars once the sub fires it is dead meat. The top speed attained with AIP is 4 knots to 5 knots. That is not enough for the subamarine to escape. That is why Diesel electrics are now mostly used for sea denial instead of offensive warfare.

Air-independent propulsion (AIP) is any marine propulsion technology that allows a non-nuclear submarine to operate without access to atmospheric oxygen (by surfacing or using a snorkel). AIP can augment or replace the diesel-electric propulsion system of non-nuclear vessels.
AIP is usually implemented as an auxiliary source, with the traditional diesel engine handling surface propulsion. Most such systems generate electricity which in turn drives an electric motor for propulsion or recharges the boat's batteries. The submarine's electrical system is also used for providing "hotel services"—ventilation, lighting, heating etc.—although this consumes a small amount of power compared to that required for propulsion.
AIP can be retrofitted into existing submarine hulls by inserting an additional hull section. AIP does not normally provide the endurance or power to replace atmospheric dependent propulsion, but allows longer submergence than a conventionally propelled submarine. A typical conventional power plant provides 3 megawatts maximum, and an AIP source around 10% of that,

So, AIP extends underwater endurance (without snorkeling). It has little if anything to do with speed. To the extent there is a limit on speed, this is inherent in conventional boats, with or without AIP.

Conventional boats can only run high speed underwater using diesels while snorkeling i.e. close to the surface. Running fast degrades sonar performance and so also means running blind.

Conventional boats typically lurk, esp. in ASW or ISR roles. They will avoid high speed dashes, even after executing an attack or when under attack.

Our Dutch Walrus submarines (fairly large boats, but without AIP) are used offensively, but always stealthily.

Ships can, but all subs cannot. And yes, a barrage of Brahmos. And no road by China in disputed territory. Don't forget to write to admin that you are seeing posts of people in your ignore list, that's a technical error.

Our Dutch Walrus boats have typically operated in the Caribbean (about 8000km away on anti drug tasks) and Med (e.g. of the coast of Yugoslavia, which is 1500km away but you need to go all the way around Gibraltar and Italy to get there so about 5000km total). Range is 18,500 km (10,000 nmi) at 17 km/h (9 kn). While they may sneak into a friendly port, and we may fly in parts and people, they do so unsupported by other ships. Just means having a somewhat bigger boat.

Displacement:

• 2,350 t surfaced,
• 2,650 t submerged,
• 1,900 t standard

Length: 67.73 m (222.2 ft)
Beam: 8.4 m (28 ft)
Draft: 6.6 m (22 ft)
Propulsion: 3 diesels, diesel-electric, 5,430 shp (4 MW), 1 shaft, 5 blades
Speed:

• 13 knots (24 km/h) surfaced,
• 20 knots (37 km/h) submerged

 

[Penguin]

Hey Penguin,

Off-topic, but what's the replacement plan for the Walrus? I've heard talk of Poland and the Netherlands joining with Germany and Norway to replace their respective submarine forces with a Type 212 mod, is that what's being discussed?

I got a chance to visit with HNLMS Walrus and her crew while she was in Norway last year for Cold Reponse 2016.

Also saw a bit of you guys during pre-exercise prepping for Dynamic Mongoose 17, but no meet-and-greet this time.

The furthest our subs have been on patrol is in the Med for Operation Active Endeavour and near the Denmark Straight. The Ulas are about half the size of the Walrus, so I'll echo your point that operating a lone submarine, such as a Chinese boat in the IOR, would require a larger one.

While it's intuitive to suggest that might put the submarine at risk, a single boat unsupported, I'm inclined to say it'd actually be less risky to operate a single boat versus a larger flotilla. It's much harder to sweep for a single unit during a ASW patrol.

Well, it is interesting at the moment [during formation of a new cabinet] as all the services are lobbying for additional big ticket items e.g. air forces wants 60 F-35 now (up from 38) and the navy is lobbying for money for the Walrus replacement (4 boats). The usual suspects are mentioned: TKMS/212 or some relative thereof, DCNS/Shortfin Barracuda or Scorpene, Navantia/S80. Interestingly, Damen has just partnered with Saab and this combo could well be the only entrant/competitor that would be able to deliver something tailored to the Dutch Navy requirement. Because our navy wants a sub that is larger than most of the standard offerings (just as the Walrus is) or boats used by other NATO navies, including Norway. It also needs something that is extremely quite and a good ISR platform as well as capable of long range ops (think: Caribean, Mediteranean/Aegean, which is where the Walrus' have roamed typically in the past decades). They a required to be capable of torpedoes and missiles (Harpoon or replacement but possibly also Tomahawk or future equivalant. Might even see NSM/JSM here ;-) Nevesbu would design. Saab would be providing the pressure hull components. Many Dutch firms would provide other components. So, provided there is political will and money, Damen/Saab stands a good chance.... €2.5 bln has been reserved, but this is likely not enough (€4 bln. more likely)

Translate this in google
https://marineschepen.nl/schepen/nieuwe-onderzeeboten-2025.html
https://marineschepen.nl/nieuws/nieuwe-nederlandse-onderzeeboten-160714.html
https://www.tweedekamer.nl/debat_en_vergadering/uitgelicht/vervanging-onderzeeboten
https://www.pressreader.com/netherlands/de-telegraaf/20170704/281663960031639
http://maritimetechnology.nl/saab-e...or-toekomstige-vervanging-walrus-onderzeeers/

 

[Hassan Guy]

India has Adman and Nicobar... An unsinkable Aircraft and Missile Career.

1) It doesn't really move
2) rising sea levels
3) its nukable tho

 

[Kiss_of_the_Dragon]

No need of photo op. Probably that's what PLA thought, a photo op. Forgot to take guns and went on to flash their cameras while IA returned similar flashes and it was gun fire.

No one prevent you from making Bollywood fantasy

These guys are looking for some kind of a face-saver after the utter humiliation in the current border fiasco. But alas, chini bravado is already exposed...They are only good at issuing warnings.

that is what India exactly looking for ...a face saving after 1962's humiliation, the entire South Asia looked down at India and have China card to deter India for bully them, Sri Lanka, Nepal, BD all have China card, they all know that we're a good counter-weight to India and China has make it clear, India better take someone at it own size.

 

[Chhatrapati]

No one prevent you from making Bollywood fantasy

I thought you love Bollywood fantasies (Dangal wasn't it?)
Since all CCP allow is 'How CCP is good and powerful and supreme. At least once in most of the section.

 

[Kiss_of_the_Dragon]

I thought you love Bollywood fantasies (Dangal wasn't it?)
Since all CCP allow is 'How CCP is good and powerful and supreme. At least once in most of the section.

What special about Bollywood fantasy? I have never spend a penny or waste my time on Indian's show I rather enjoy my Tibetan brother and sister show.

 

[Chhatrapati]

What special about Bollywood fantasy? I have never spend a penny or waste my time on Indian's show I rather enjoy my Tibetan brother and sister show.

May be it's expensive for you. I don't know. You don't watch it, you never know. Can't explain how it is.

 

[Kiss_of_the_Dragon]

May be it's expensive for you. I don't know. You don't watch it, you never know. Can't explain how it is.

No I can't afford myself on Bollywood fantasy

 

[KRAIT]

minimum deterrence is there. no worries.

 

[Kiss_of_the_Dragon]

minimum deterrence is there. no worries.

what kind of deterrence...such as sinking our merchant ships?

 

[KRAIT]

what kind of deterrence...such as sinking our merchant ships?

butthurt much?

 

[ziaulislam]

Ok, if we are going to go this route, how many of your Destroyers are actually made in the last decade and possesses capabilities matching that of the latest China, or for that matter yourself fields? It's 3, you know how many of these vessels China has? 6 052C, 5 052D, with another 4 in sea trial. I'm sure you can do the math.

As for subs, it is true, China doesn't have that many new subs, but in terms of AIP equipped subs, China is infinitely stronger, literally, as India currently fields 0 such subs.

This is a defense forum, if you can't be knowledgeable about such matters, I'm sure Reddit has openings.

As to the rest, just wow. The ignore list grows ever longer. We don't have to agree, but if you can't bring facts to the table, you bring nothing and there's really nothing more to be said.

honestly 1:4 is wrong figure its more like 1:6 if we really look at number
PLAAN has ~ 30+ heavy destroyers, 30+ heavy frigates, 30+ coverttes, i am not counting in previous gen type 53 ships, this is along with 60+ modern diesel sub same type which form the back bone of IN (so isnt this an idiot logic that same kilo which IN operates are super but the exact ones that china operates 12+vs ~9 are bad??) and other newer generation 10+ nuclear subs

this means that PLAAN operates approx 150+ modern heavy vessels vs ~40 indian vessels

long distance power projection is going to be answered with world largest cruisers the type 55 and 2 ACC