Indian Navy Multi-Role Helicopter Competition To Kickstart Again

[sancho]

Well it would be pretty important- any such JV winning out and then delivering NMRHs to the IN would take, what, 5-6 years? At least the stop-gap procurement of 16 (hopefully more) would ease some of the (serious) pain the IN is facing on this front right now with their Sea King and Ka-28 fleet. You seriously can't think the current situation of flying 30+ year old aged Helos from $1BN+ Destroyers is acceptable?

Of course not, but haven't we all hoped for the new MoD to speed up procurements and decision making exactly for that reason and what do we actually see now? More delays that causes that the forces will need to keep older stuff for a longer time isn't it? LUH scrapped and re-issued => longer operational life for Cheetha and Cheetak helicopters. P75I scrapped and re-issued as it seems => no fast procurement of badly needed SSKs although the fleet is in a difficult situation. And if we see a similar decision in the NMRH tender, we also will have to see it in the NLUH tender too, which means 2 big helicopter tenders of IN will be delayed for years.
It's good to divert licence productions to privat players instead of HAL (at least for the bulk of these tenders), but they could had done it with every new tender and take final decisions about the running tenders to speed up modernisation. All we see now is, basically passing the already cleared deals (Apache, Chinook, Barak missiles, Avro replacement, most likely A330 MRTTs), while those tenders that were pending to be cleared, are not seeing any push so far (although I hope for some changes on M777 during the current US visit of the PM).

 

[Rikbo]

The groundwork for a joint venture has already been laid with Tata Industries and Sikorsky has committed to building helos in India. The initial 16 would likely be built in the USA but also used to begin the process of standing up India's capability to build them in country.
Because of the rules of this forum I am not able to post a link to the article that describes this. Search on "ajs walia sikorsky".

 

[sancho]

The groundwork for a joint venture has already been laid with Tata Industries and Sikorsky has committed to building helos in India.

Not as part of this tender, the JV you mean is a company to company deal, mainly to outsource productions parts of other helicopters to Tata. If this or the larger tender for naval helicopters will be changed, it needs to be a JV about that product and will aim on more industrial benefits for India, rather than for Sikorsky and that's where the US offers always fell short. Lets see if that changes, so far (even after the visit of the PM) nothing hints on that though.

 

[Utkarsh]

Not as part of this tender, the JV you mean is a company to company deal, mainly to outsource productions parts of other helicopters to Tata. If this or the larger tender for naval helicopters will be changed, it needs to be a JV about that product and will aim on more industrial benefits for India, rather than for Sikorsky and that's where the US offers always fell short. Lets see if that changes, so far (even after the visit of the PM) nothing hints on that though.

You would be wrong.

dnaindia/money/report-tatas-may-make-choppers-if-sikorsky-bags-defence-deal-1671206

Sikorsky Aircraft Co, a US-based aircraft manufacturer, is eyeing deals under the defence procurement programme of the Indian government.

It is currently awaiting a licence from the government to manufacture components and assemble helicopters for the Indian defence services.

Tata Sikorsky Aerostructures, its joint venture with Tata Advanced Systems Ltd, stands to gain if Sikorsky bags the defence deal.

Sikorsky is among the two companies that have been shortlisted by the Union Ministry of Defence to supply 16 multi-role helicopters to Indian Navy in a deal pegged at $1 billion.

Tata Sikorsky Aerostructures, in which Tatas hold a majority 74% stake and Sikorsky the rest, makes about 4,000 parts of Sikorsky’s S-92 helicopter cabins, and a licence by the Indian government would allow the company to manufacture a complete chopper.

“The partnership with Tatas will be extended to manufacturing and assembling Sikorsky helicopters besides making Sikorsky S-92 helicopter cabins. We have applied to the government and are expecting a licence shortly,” Steve Estill, Sikorsky’s vice-president, strategic partnerships, said.

Speaking to reporters, Estill said the company would manufacture multi-role helicopters for Indian Navy, subject to the grant of licence.

Air Vice Marshall AJS Walia, Sikorsky’s executive vice-president, India and South Asia, said there is just one order for S-92 helicopter from India and the facility near Hyderabad was playing a major role in Sikorsky’s global supply chain.

Sikorsky and NH90 of NH Industries are said to have been shortlisted by the Union Ministry of Defence to supply 16 multi-role helicopters to the Indian Navy.

“It is currently at the request or proposal stage. We expect to be the lowest bidder for this contract that is pegged at about $1 billion.” Walia said.

Sikorsky recently delivered an S-76C++ helicopter to the Maharashtra government for air travel of senior leaders of the state and officials. The chopper joins a growing fleet of Sikorsky helicopters operating in India, including other S-76 family of aircraft.

Sikorsky is a subsidiary of United Technologies Corp, which provides a broad range of technology products and support services to the aerospace and building systems industries.

defencenow/news/567/sikorsky-offers-m-70-b-sea-hawk-chopper-to-the-navy-plans-production-hub-in-hyderabad.html

Sikorsky Offers M-70 B Sea Hawk Chopper to the Navy, Plans Production Hub in Hyderabad

The US aerospace major Sikorsky has offered to make the naval variant of the Black Hawk helicopter in India once the Indian Navy decides to buy it for its fleet. The M-70B Sea Hawk will be the naval variant which, according to Boeing, can be co-produced in India with significant transfer of technology and manufacturing capability.

Currently, the Indian Navy already has a tender for 16 helicopters with an option of eight more twin-engine, 12.5 tonne category helicopters. The two contenders for the choppers are Sikorsky and a European consortium with its NH-90 chopper. According to sources, the requirement for choppers will escalate to over 100 in the near future. Hence, Boeing has already offering the Sea Hawk to the Indian Navy. Subject to an agreement between the two governments, the MH-70B can be produced under the Buy-and-Make category if the navy opts for the chopper.

Lately, Sikorsky officials have been holding meetings in India to push various military and civilian deals ahead including the Sea Hawk offer to the navy. Sikorsky has indicated that multi-role variants of the Black Hawk have been operating in the US army, marine, navy and Special Forces. The chopper is equipped with various advanced weapons and systems and it can be used for anti-submarine warfare (ASW) to anti-surface warfare (ASUW), light heli-borne operations and other crucial all-weather operations like surveillance.

On the other hand, the joint venture between Sikorsky and private Indian firm Tata Advanced Systems Limited (TASL) has also suggested to the government that the southern city of Hyderabad should serve as a hub for producing their S-92 Superhawk helicopters by the end of 2013. Sikorsky has asked for a defence license which will enable the production of 80 per cent of the component of the S-92 and its military variant H-92 at the Hyderabad facility of TASL.

In order to push the offer of the naval variant of the Black Hawk as well as the production facility for S-92 helicopters in India, officials including Stephen B. Estill, vice president (Strategic Partnerships) for Sikorsky Aircraft Corporation (SAC), and Mick Maurer, president, Sikorsky Military Systems have been visiting India. While Sikorsky and Tata Group already have a joint venture for civil helicopter production since 2010, a joint company for military helicopters was discussed this time around. While India itself had no order yet for the S-92, the Indian facility was playing a significant role in Sikorsky's global supply chain. Sikorsky is hoping that if orders from the Indian Navy can be extracted, the project to make military helicopters can be a feasible idea.

 

[sancho]

You would be wrong...
...Tata Sikorsky Aerostructures, in which Tatas hold a majority 74% stake and Sikorsky the rest, makes about 4,000 parts of Sikorsky’s S-92 helicopter cabins, and a licence by the Indian government would allow the company to manufacture a complete chopper.

Actually that's exactly what I said, the current JV is not about naval helicopters, but about parts of the S92, which isn't the matter here. So if the tender is re-issued, it would be about a JV to produce parts of the S70 in India, according to the requirements set by MoD and not a company to company JV as Tata and Sikorsky have right now.

 

[Utkarsh]

Actually that's exactly what I said, the current JV is not about naval helicopters, but about parts of the S92, which isn't the matter here. So if the tender is re-issued, it would be about a JV to produce parts of the S70 in India, according to the requirements set by MoD and not a company to company JV as Tata and Sikorsky have right now.

S-92 is just the civilian version of S-70 so more than 80% parts must be same.

@Rikbo can clarify better.

This revised tender will dovetail nicely into the current capability of Tata-Sikorsky and help it expand further. Its win-win, since production will not take much time either.

 

[sancho]

S-92 is just the civilian version of S-70 so more than 80% parts must be same.

No mate, they are 2 different helicopters! I'm afraid you are confusing S70 and MH-60R, which are different varients of the same helicopter.

 

[Utkarsh]

No mate, they are 2 different helicopters! I'm afraid you are confusing S70 and MH-60R, which are different varients of the same helicopter.

Of course they are different helicopters, I said they might have a lot of common parts since S-92 was based on S-70.

For one thing, they have similar parts such as flight control and rotor systems.

 

[SRBM2]

India mate lately lot of stupid deals. The west is absolutley unreliable partner.

US blackmailed germany to cancel deals with russia, Rheinmetall sued Germany for compensation.
US blackmailed france to cancel delivery of mistral and thales.

So what you think gonna happen when India the CSTO member pursues further BRICS and alternative currency for trade between countries, than USA will just stop supplying india with spare parts, training,equipment.
USA is the worst partner you can have and india has alot of stupid decision makers for overprized mediocre equipment.

 

[Utkarsh]

India mate lately lot of stupid deals. The west is absolutley unreliable partner.

US blackmailed germany to cancel deals with russia, Rheinmetall sued Germany for compensation.
US blackmailed france to cancel delivery of mistral and thales.

So what you think gonna happen when India the CSTO member pursues further BRICS and alternative currency for trade between countries, than USA will just stop supplying india with spare parts, training,equipment.
USA is the worst partner you can have and india has alot of stupid decision makers for overprized mediocre equipment.

Which is why the requirement is for a Made in India equipment with ownership resting with Indians.

 

[Rikbo]

You would be wrong.

dnaindia/money/report-tatas-may-make-choppers-if-sikorsky-bags-defence-deal-1671206

Sikorsky Aircraft Co, a US-based aircraft manufacturer, is eyeing deals under the defence procurement programme of the Indian government.

It is currently awaiting a licence from the government to manufacture components and assemble helicopters for the Indian defence services.

Tata Sikorsky Aerostructures, its joint venture with Tata Advanced Systems Ltd, stands to gain if Sikorsky bags the defence deal.

Sikorsky is among the two companies that have been shortlisted by the Union Ministry of Defence to supply 16 multi-role helicopters to Indian Navy in a deal pegged at $1 billion.

Tata Sikorsky Aerostructures, in which Tatas hold a majority 74% stake and Sikorsky the rest, makes about 4,000 parts of Sikorsky’s S-92 helicopter cabins, and a licence by the Indian government would allow the company to manufacture a complete chopper.

“The partnership with Tatas will be extended to manufacturing and assembling Sikorsky helicopters besides making Sikorsky S-92 helicopter cabins. We have applied to the government and are expecting a licence shortly,” Steve Estill, Sikorsky’s vice-president, strategic partnerships, said.

Speaking to reporters, Estill said the company would manufacture multi-role helicopters for Indian Navy, subject to the grant of licence.

Air Vice Marshall AJS Walia, Sikorsky’s executive vice-president, India and South Asia, said there is just one order for S-92 helicopter from India and the facility near Hyderabad was playing a major role in Sikorsky’s global supply chain.

Sikorsky and NH90 of NH Industries are said to have been shortlisted by the Union Ministry of Defence to supply 16 multi-role helicopters to the Indian Navy.

“It is currently at the request or proposal stage. We expect to be the lowest bidder for this contract that is pegged at about $1 billion.” Walia said.

Sikorsky recently delivered an S-76C++ helicopter to the Maharashtra government for air travel of senior leaders of the state and officials. The chopper joins a growing fleet of Sikorsky helicopters operating in India, including other S-76 family of aircraft.

Sikorsky is a subsidiary of United Technologies Corp, which provides a broad range of technology products and support services to the aerospace and building systems industries.

defencenow/news/567/sikorsky-offers-m-70-b-sea-hawk-chopper-to-the-navy-plans-production-hub-in-hyderabad.html

Sikorsky Offers M-70 B Sea Hawk Chopper to the Navy, Plans Production Hub in Hyderabad

The US aerospace major Sikorsky has offered to make the naval variant of the Black Hawk helicopter in India once the Indian Navy decides to buy it for its fleet. The M-70B Sea Hawk will be the naval variant which, according to Boeing, can be co-produced in India with significant transfer of technology and manufacturing capability.

Currently, the Indian Navy already has a tender for 16 helicopters with an option of eight more twin-engine, 12.5 tonne category helicopters. The two contenders for the choppers are Sikorsky and a European consortium with its NH-90 chopper. According to sources, the requirement for choppers will escalate to over 100 in the near future. Hence, Boeing has already offering the Sea Hawk to the Indian Navy. Subject to an agreement between the two governments, the MH-70B can be produced under the Buy-and-Make category if the navy opts for the chopper.

Lately, Sikorsky officials have been holding meetings in India to push various military and civilian deals ahead including the Sea Hawk offer to the navy. Sikorsky has indicated that multi-role variants of the Black Hawk have been operating in the US army, marine, navy and Special Forces. The chopper is equipped with various advanced weapons and systems and it can be used for anti-submarine warfare (ASW) to anti-surface warfare (ASUW), light heli-borne operations and other crucial all-weather operations like surveillance.

On the other hand, the joint venture between Sikorsky and private Indian firm Tata Advanced Systems Limited (TASL) has also suggested to the government that the southern city of Hyderabad should serve as a hub for producing their S-92 Superhawk helicopters by the end of 2013. Sikorsky has asked for a defence license which will enable the production of 80 per cent of the component of the S-92 and its military variant H-92 at the Hyderabad facility of TASL.

In order to push the offer of the naval variant of the Black Hawk as well as the production facility for S-92 helicopters in India, officials including Stephen B. Estill, vice president (Strategic Partnerships) for Sikorsky Aircraft Corporation (SAC), and Mick Maurer, president, Sikorsky Military Systems have been visiting India. While Sikorsky and Tata Group already have a joint venture for civil helicopter production since 2010, a joint company for military helicopters was discussed this time around. While India itself had no order yet for the S-92, the Indian facility was playing a significant role in Sikorsky's global supply chain. Sikorsky is hoping that if orders from the Indian Navy can be extracted, the project to make military helicopters can be a feasible idea.

Thanks for posting these articles @Utkarsh!

India mate lately lot of stupid deals. The west is absolutley unreliable partner.

US blackmailed germany to cancel deals with russia, Rheinmetall sued Germany for compensation.
US blackmailed france to cancel delivery of mistral and thales.

So what you think gonna happen when India the CSTO member pursues further BRICS and alternative currency for trade between countries, than USA will just stop supplying india with spare parts, training,equipment.
USA is the worst partner you can have and india has alot of stupid decision makers for overprized mediocre equipment.

Kind of harsh @SRBM2, and not true. Sikorsky has supported a variety of foreign navies who have the S-70B and has done so with great success. Just ask the Turkish Navy. They are very happy with the aircraft. US did not blackmail anyone. How do you "Blackmail" a country? I see you are passionate about this but let's not let our emotions speak for us. The facts would dispute your position. And I take great offense at your calling the S-70B mediocre equipment. Singapore has the undisputed best and most modern armed forces in the Far East and they chose the S-70B and have bought more. What does that tell you? I'll put the S-70B against any ASW or ASuW aircraft out there on cost vs. capability basis and it wins hands down!

 

[Rikbo]

Not as part of this tender, the JV you mean is a company to company deal, mainly to outsource productions parts of other helicopters to Tata. If this or the larger tender for naval helicopters will be changed, it needs to be a JV about that product and will aim on more industrial benefits for India, rather than for Sikorsky and that's where the US offers always fell short. Lets see if that changes, so far (even after the visit of the PM) nothing hints on that though.

Sikorsky completely understands India's desire to develop and indigenous capability to design and manufacturer more sophisticated aircraft such as the S-70B. The MRH program aircraft will likely be built in Sikorsky's Stratford facility but as I said before, the larger numbers for the next tender would allow Sikorsky to justify the cost of helping India "stand up" it's own design and manufacturing facilities.

 

[Rikbo]

S-92 is just the civilian version of S-70 so more than 80% parts must be same.

@Rikbo can clarify better.

This revised tender will dovetail nicely into the current capability of Tata-Sikorsky and help it expand further. Its win-win, since production will not take much time either.

S-92 is just the civilian version of S-70 so more than 80% parts must be same.
@Rikbo can clarify better.

This revised tender will dovetail nicely into the current capability of Tata-Sikorsky and help it expand further. Its win-win, since production will not take much time either.

They are two different helos but have a lot of major components that are common (transmission, rotor, others) not sure what the exact breakdown is. In hindsight Sikorsky should have made the S-92 with a 5 bladed rotor instead of 4 for better performance and payload. But that would have driven the design away from the S-70 and incurred much greater development cost, something Sikorsky was trying to avoid.

 

[The Unnamed]

India mate lately lot of stupid deals. The west is absolutley unreliable partner.

US blackmailed germany to cancel deals with russia, Rheinmetall sued Germany for compensation.
US blackmailed france to cancel delivery of mistral and thales.

So what you think gonna happen when India the CSTO member pursues further BRICS and alternative currency for trade between countries, than USA will just stop supplying india with spare parts, training,equipment.
USA is the worst partner you can have and india has alot of stupid decision makers for overprized mediocre equipment.

dude, scene is exactly not rosy with russians when it comes to keep a machine running..on time with enough spares and punctuality which may i remind you is the key to india paying more than less on a deal. at least with the west, itss straight up. all the treachery is on the paper and they do stick to it.

that issue resolved, i would see indian defence companies with a russian arm in a matter of a year.

come what may, militarily, india will not "ditch" russia. another very important point : russia isn't USSR. USSR was smart. Putin is making some very stupid moves.

short of total independence from import, what choice do we have ?

 

[sancho]

Sikorsky completely understands India's desire to develop and indigenous capability to design and manufacturer more sophisticated aircraft such as the S-70B. The MRH program aircraft will likely be built in Sikorsky's Stratford facility but as I said before, the larger numbers for the next tender would allow Sikorsky to justify the cost of helping India "stand up" it's own manufacturing facilities.

Possible and it's not even Sikorsky that is the problem, but it's US laws and US restrictions! If Boeing or LM could have, they had offered more critical techs in MMRCA too, but they were restricted and we see the same issue in any tender that includes production in India under ToT. Even the M777 or Javelin ATGM procurements are delayed because of offset or ToT restrictions and when Sikorsky has to team up with Tata to get the larger deal, they have to provide critical techs for the production in India too, otherwhise even a more costly NFH90 will have good chances, if the industrial package is more promising.