Indian Jet Maker Declines Int’l Help

[MilSpec]

Source DNAIndia.

HAL is imposing Tejas on Indian forces while they dont want it and have better alternatives..
Throwing in the towel is sometimes the best thing to do.

Rest assured, IAF will not induct anything it deems not worth.....

The truth remains that IAF teams that have flown LCA are highly satisfied by it, capabilities planned on the final aircraft are tailor made to the IAF requirements which have constantly evolved due to it's fat bank balance in the last decade.

IAF continues to fly Bisons and Mig 27M's... LCA will be able to easily replace both the roles as low cost operators, whereas the higher end spectrum will be filled by rafales and MKI's.

Apart from that LCA is the most important aircraft to bolster the much needed squdn strength to eventually take over most of CAP's and lo-lo config strike packages in the frontline freeing up MKI's, M29smt's, Jag's and M2k MK2upg's for it's primary intended strike roles.

On topic: this thread specifies that HAL has declined support from outside for it's production lines, which is quite understandable as the production lines for MKI do not involve any of m/c tools and assembly fixtures from russia. Instead the FDN complex (CNC) in nasik employs machine tools from KTM, DMG, MCV OKK, Nakamura Tome and others in it's line. The assembly tooling is indigenous and is designed and optimized from the same engineering team who cranked out hundreds from bis and bisons from the same general assembly hangars....

 

[WHITESMOKE]

Source DNAIndia.

HAL is imposing Tejas on Indian forces while they dont want it and have better alternatives..
Throwing in the towel is sometimes the best thing to do.

Like China imposed JF17 on Pakistan?? Wait.. atleast we are imposing home grown product and we are getting others also same time

Rest assured, IAF will not induct anything it deems not worth.....

The truth remains that IAF teams that have flown LCA are highly satisfied by it, capabilities planned on the final aircraft are tailor made to the IAF requirements which have constantly evolved due to it's fat bank balance in the last decade.

IAF continues to fly Bisons and Mig 27M's... LCA will be able to easily replace both the roles as low cost operators, whereas the higher end spectrum will be filled by rafales and MKI's.

Apart from that LCA is the most important aircraft to bolster the much needed squdn strength to eventually take over most of CAP's and lo-lo config strike packages in the frontline freeing up MKI's, M29smt's, Jag's and M2k MK2upg's for it's primary intended strike roles.

On topic: this thread specifies that HAL has declined support from outside for it's production lines, which is quite understandable as the production lines for MKI do not involve any of m/c tools and assembly fixtures from russia. Instead the FDN complex (CNC) in nasik employs machine tools from KTM, DMG, MCV OKK, Nakamura Tome and others in it's line. The assembly tooling is indigenous and is designed and optimized from the same engineering team who cranked out hundreds from bis and bisons from the same general assembly hangars....

Mate, why to put so much effort when these people are not ready to look beyond tejas just as a "fighter jet"?? There are numerous technologies developed for tejas that has been sucessfuly used in many other areas. Forget it that these people will ever understand the concept of R&D.

 

[MilSpec]

Mate, why to put so much effort when these people are not ready to look beyond tejas just as a "fighter jet"?? There are numerous technologies developed for tejas that has been sucessfuly used in many other areas. Forget it that these people will ever understand the concept of R&D.

Dont get me wrong... I like the fighter and the design but I am more than disgusted by the rate of developmental work, I have been more critical than @Safriz of the time line and ADA's work.

 

[WHITESMOKE]

Dont get me wrong... I like the fighter and the design but I am more than disgusted by the rate of developmental work, I have been more critical than @Safriz of the time line and ADA's work.

Well it is not right to just critisize without considering the facts. Its true they managed it badly, may be they were too much optimistic ( by not consediring that they are making 4th gen fighter while they have done nothing such before) and later on IAF also kept adding things to wish list, but since it was fisrt the try and making a 4th gen figher from scratch is never easy. If same blunder happens in MCA ( Which i really hope wont happen), then I too would be there to critisize, but since LCA is really a good one, so when its operational i am sure critics would also become admirer. Dont forget we dont have same level of R&D and money when the program was started so we must consider all those facts, even the sanctions also.

 

[MilSpec]

Well it is not right to just critisize without considering the facts. Its true they managed it badly, may be they were too much optimistic ( by not consediring that they are making 4th gen fighter while they have done nothing such before) and later on IAF also kept adding things to wish list, but since it was fisrt the try and making a 4th gen figher from scratch is never easy. If same blunder happens in MCA ( Which i really hope wont happen), then I too would be there to critisize, but since LCA is really a good one, so when its operational i am sure critics would also become admirer. Dont forget we dont have same level of R&D and money when the program was started so we must consider all those facts, even the sanctions also.

Dear sir,

Please do go through most of LCA threads to understand my positions.I have worked for HAL long enough, I have been the biggest critic of ADA due to my experience. I have quite a few close friends who have personally work with project, and I put my thoughts based on informed reliable opinions and my interpretations of ground realities and their implications. I have the greatest regard for HAL as possible, which doesn't imply exoneration from their own shortcomings. I understand the position you are taking wrt lca, the majority of people have the same opinion, Please do visit the LCA related thread, and you will realize the reasons for frustrations of professionals here who know that better results and better timeline could have been achieved.

 

[Safriz]

I saw HAL's stall at Farnborough 2012. They didnt let me i despite me trolling them to the level that they were about to call security to remove me from their closed doors.
I peeked inside and it was a hall full of defence hardware up for sale.

So yes India has gained experience in many technologies during the LCA project.
Why not divert all the money into these smaller technologies than insisting on Tejas.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I saw HAL's stall at Farnborough 2012. They didnt let me i despite me trolling them to the level that they were about to call security to remove me from their closed doors.
I peeked inside and it was a hall full of defence hardware up for sale.

So yes India has gained experience in many technologies during the LCA project.
Why not divert all the money into these smaller technologies than insisting on Tejas.

A major project like LCA has many spin-offs and trickle down effects so it is not pointless perusing such a project.


Also you people need to stop insisting the LCA is a failure, for a first try it is a commendable effort- you obviously don't agree.

 

[BlueDot_in_Space]

I saw HAL's stall at Farnborough 2012. They didnt let me i despite me trolling them to the level that they were about to call security to remove me from their closed doors.
I peeked inside and it was a hall full of defence hardware up for sale.

So yes India has gained experience in many technologies during the LCA project.
Why not divert all the money into these smaller technologies than insisting on Tejas.

Thanks for your concern. You should not worry too much about Tejas. The project is doing fine and the institutions involved are climbing the steep curve of learning modern fighter design, testing and productionisation. ISRO went through the same learning process when they started with experimental SLV and later ASLV. Initial failures in both the programs and later their successful completion culminated into first operational vehicle PSLV that is now a work horse of ISRO.

You should worry about what PAF has learned in the JFT project. Can they design a new fighter? Can they test it ? What about the production?

 

[Safriz]

^^^ so that makes HAL , DRDO the most expensive schools of India or the world.. Its all about learning....the expensive and hard way.

 

[sancho]

JF-17 is a product of both China & Pakistan

That's true, because it's a co-development between both countries and that's why Pakistanis can call it an indigenous fighter, just like Indians call LCA and indigenous fighter. Both fighters even use foreign techs, that are available on the market, be it Russian engines for JF 17 or US for LCA.
The difference however is, that we have the advantage of much more options on the market, be it weapons, avonics, or even consultancy partners, while Pakistan has only the option to rely on China, or to a few other countries.
I can remember the claims of many Pakistani member a few years ago, about European engines, Rafale techs or weapons, Gripen AESA and refueling systems. None of them came true, while they are on offer for LCA.
So we only use the advantages that you don't have, to make the fighter better!

Also the most important difference is, that the prime developer of LCA is India, even if we could take foreign consultancy partners for help, while JF 17 is mainly developed by China, with Pakistans content more limited, similar to Indias content at the Pak Fa / FGFA.
But while India will also be the prime operator of LCA, JF 17 is only meant to be an export fighter for China, with Pakistan as the prime (export) customer.

Both fighters are developed to improve the operational low end of our forces, but also to provide our industy a base for future projects and logistics. PAF is benefitting currently of course way more from JF 17 than IAF is from LCA, but IAF don't need it necessarily, with many other types as alternatives, so won't effect us in operational terms.
For Pakistans industry, JF 17 is already a success and the more you produce, the more Pakistani content it will get and if even exports to other countries can be secured, it will be even a high boost! For Indian industry it was a good and important start, but we have to finish the project and most of all, learn from the mistakes that were done to make this an overall success as well.

 

[A1Kaid]

Is Bajaj going to help Indian air force manufacture their next generation fighter jet? India doesn't need international help companies like Bajaj and Tata can help develop India's next generation fighter jet.

 

[Koovie]

Tejas will only serve our low end needs, face it guys. AFAIK the first sqdr. will be based in TAMIL NADU!

 

[WHITESMOKE]

Dear sir,

Please do go through most of LCA threads to understand my positions.I have worked for HAL long enough, I have been the biggest critic of ADA due to my experience. I have quite a few close friends who have personally work with project, and I put my thoughts based on informed reliable opinions and my interpretations of ground realities and their implications. I have the greatest regard for HAL as possible, which doesn't imply exoneration from their own shortcomings. I understand the position you are taking wrt lca, the majority of people have the same opinion, Please do visit the LCA related thread, and you will realize the reasons for frustrations of professionals here who know that better results and better timeline could have been achieved.

Well Sir, since you have worked there so you surely know much more than me. I have no doubt that while many people are putting serious efforts in HAL/ADA and same time many are just wasting govt money in Chai-biscuit only. It will take a lot time for the professionalism you expect from them. I will tell you a simple example and rest you can imagine about people's thinking regarding hard work in India. While travelling daily in Metro I have observed that most of the Canadian do not prefer to sit in metro train even if the seats are empty, while on contrary most of the south Asians will start looking for an empty seat even before entering the metro and even if they have to get off on next station. Haramkhori is now in the genes of most of the south Asians and they really don't want to work hard.

 

[Sergi]

Well Sir, since you have worked there so you surely know much more than me. I have no doubt that while many people are putting serious efforts in HAL/ADA and same time many are just wasting govt money in Chai-biscuit only. It will take a lot time for the professionalism you expect from them. I will tell you a simple example and rest you can imagine about people's thinking regarding hard work in India. While travelling daily in Metro I have observed that most of the Canadian do not prefer to sit in metro train even if the seats are empty, while on contrary most of the south Asians will start looking for an empty seat even before entering the metro and even if they have to get off on next station. Haramkhori is now in the genes of most of the south Asians and they really don't want to work hard.

Wow you hit entire south Asia in a single post
Don't you think you are overshooting just because some people like to sit and some people like to stand ??? What a stand mate

 

[WHITESMOKE]

Wow you hit entire south Asia in a single post
Don't you think you are overshooting just because some people like to sit and some people like to stand ??? What a stand mate

Sir, To be honest, even if the whole metro compartment is empty, still I have seen many of the Canadian not preferring to sit. Its not that they like it or not, but its because of the work culture. In comparison south Asians will behave like a magnet on seeing an empty seat. There is nothing personal against anyone but I was just trying to show the difference between work culture. One big reason of delay in LCA is Indian work culture where no one cares that they are being paid for the time they spend in office. Heck, even their "Chai" is also paid and they still don't want to work