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Indian Intelligence Failure

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Indian Intelligence Failure
Posted by vkthakur on Saturday, August 13, 2005 (EST)

Pakistan's remarkable success in testing a long range cruise missile has brought out weaknesses in our strategic intelligence and weapon development.

Pakistan's recent testing of the Babur cruise missile is sure to have rattled decision makers in New Delhi. Though there has been no official comment, reaction to the event in the Indian press is a good indicator that our government had no clue of what Pakistan was upto.

Initial press reports harped on the fact that the missile must have been developed with outside assistance, possibly from China. Big deal! Does that make the missile any less potent? Besides, the facade of joint production notwithstanding, our own Brahmos is really a derivative of the Russian Yakhont missile, tweaked to conform to the limitations of the MTCR regime. Incidentally, while our Brahmos is chained to 300 km range limit for ever the Babur is already 200kms ahead!

There can be no denying that Pakistan has achieved a remarkable success in developing a sophisticated weapon system. I think rather than grudging Pakistan its success we should focus on the strategic implications of that success for us. In addition we need to focus on

Our apparant dismal lack of strategic intelligence.

The poor performance of our own weapon development programs vis-a-vis Pakistan.
Intelligence Failure
There is good circumstancial evidence to suggest that the Babur is based on off the shelf components procured by Pakistan from abroad.

The fact that the development of the missile by Pakistan went undetected was because of the fact that it was never developed by Pakistan. An attempt to build a cruise or a ballistic missile from scratch is easy to detect, even for Indian intelligence! Testing of unproven rocket motors requires building of physical infrastructure that can be detected by commercially available high resolution satellites.

Another indicator is the confidence expressed by General Pervez Musharaf in the capabilities of the Babur missile after just its first test. If a complex system, such as a cruise missile, were to be developed from scratch it would take years if not decades of testing to acquire the confidence that General Prevez Musharaf expressed. India's own labored effort with developing ballistic and air defense missile development illustrates my point.

One could suggest that the General was boasting and that the missile is neither fully developed nor as potent as he would want us and his countrymen to believe. Indeed, there is no denying the proclivity of the Pakistani establishment to boast. The following statement attributed to a Pakistani army spokesperson illustrates the point.

"It is a terrain hugging missile, which has the most advanced and modern navigation and guidance and a high degree of maneuverability and its technology enables it to avoid radar detection and penetrate undetected through any hostile defence system."

Clearly the "most advanced" and "penetrate through any hostile defense system" bits are boasts. However, a boast is not a bluff. When General Pervez Musharraf stated :-

"In quality, it (Babur) is far better. Brahmos has a range of 290-300 kilometres while … Babur can hit a target up to 500 kilometres".

He was, in all probabilites, grounded in facts and if that is so like the Brahmos, Pakistan's Babur is based on a well tested weapon system.

Clearly the Babur is not a home grown missile. Pakistan must have acquired the missile, its engines and electronics, all from abroad.

Acquisition of critical missile components and technology from abroad by Pakistan should not have been difficult for our intelligence agencies to detect. Our country has good relations with western nations and Ukraine from where the electronics for the Babur were probably sourced. There are understandable difficulties in penetrating a closed society like China. However, Indian intelligence can compensate by better infiltrating Pakistan and maintaining closer liason with intelligence agencies of other friendly countries. I for one would be very surprised if the Mossad was not aware of it! Afterall, the Babur could easily find its way into Iranian and Palestinian hands!

I think our focus should be on fixing our strategic intelligence apparatus so that Pakistan's purchase of critical missile components and technology abroad does not go undetected. Only then will we have an opportunity to prevent the dangerous escalation that seems to be taking place in the sub continent.

One would imagine that the Kargil fiasco would have woken up India to the need for good intelligence. Apparantly, it has not.

Frankly, a nuclear weapon state with such a pathetic strategic intelligence gathering capability as India is a danger to the entire world.

Indigenous Weapon Development

Measured by any yardstick, India's own weapon development progams have performed very poorly. When compared with efforts in Pakistan our failings appear magnified.

If it has not so far dawned on our government that DRDO has been leading the nation up the garden path for decades now, it should now.

Pakistan with the success of its Khalid MBT, JF-17 Combat Fighter and Missile development programs has shown that it is more cost effective to build on existing technology procured from abroad rather than create it. Indeed, our own Brahmos program illustrates the same.

However, DRDO does not seem to have learnt any lessons. It continue to leverage its indigneous slogan, which has a compelling appeal to the sentiments of the uninformed masses, to grow in size and inefficiency. Its steady bloat is suckering the country out of its resources enfeebling, rather than strengthening it.

Conclusion

With the first test of the Babur cruise missile Pakistan has achieved a remarkable success. The missile itself poses little threat to India. The boasts of the Pakistani army spokesperson notwithstanding, cruise missiles can be detected and engaged. For example the F-18E/D with a AN/APG-79 AESA Radar and AIM-120 air to air missile can detect and engage a missile such as the Babur.

Enagagement of cruise missile will be greatly assisted by the acquisition and the integration of the Phalcon AWACS from Israel in the years to come.

Unlike ballistic missiles a subsonic cruise missile takes a significant amount of time to reach its target. This allows for a multiple layered defense.

The threat to India will continue to be from ballistic missile that Pakistan fields now and in the future.

The above perspective notwithstanding the Babur missile test does highlight the failures in Indian intelligence and defense production. These are serious failures considering that we are right in the middle of two nuclear armed and aggressive adversaries. The country's leadership should not only address these failures but assure the nation that they will not be repeated

Source: http://kuku.sawf.org/Articles/2111.aspx
 
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I am totally agreed with the author as I know him personally and been visited his website many times.

The only question is why there are double standards on this site.

If any Indian author writes something against Pakistan it is called as propaganda. Even if some PAF/PN retired top brass write something good again it is pro-Indian propaganda article.

Then at this time why this article is being posted by the webby itself???

Just because it shows the Indian intelligence lapses????

I just hope in future MoD's/Admin's and webby himself will respect all kind of good informative artiles.

Miro
 
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I just hope in future MoD's/Admin's and webby himself will respect all kind of good informative artiles.

Its allowed as long as it is from the right sources, and the above is.

Sometimes even extremist sources, release out the information which is very accurate. So the point is, we will decide what should be discussed and what not.
 
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I would'nt consider it an intelligence lapse. If Pakistan had been carrying out R&D and had been secretly test firing it, then one could blame the spooks, but no one should one blame them for something bought off the shelf and then "tested".
 
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I am sick and tired of this Indian perception that anything that Pakistan comes up with is off-the-shelf and there's nothing indigenous about it. Until you can prove it, DON'T CLAIM IT.

Part of the original article is also rubbish as the author is making analysis using 'speculations'. He is also sold to the idea of Pakistan coming up with Babur as a result of off-the-shelf purchases and without any tests. Well let me make it clear, as early as 1998/99 tests were being carried out for sea-skimming and other devices which were basically technology demonstrators which fed the Babur program.

Then, when the Babur was developed, testing was carried out but it just wasn't made public. The one that WAS allowed media coverage was the one where all parameters had been perfected and it was more of a 'staged' test to flex our missile development muscle.

(More to come... I'll edit this post later in the day, have to go somewhere urgently!)
 
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Originally posted by Sid@Mar 19 2006, 03:34 AM
I am sick and tired of this Indian perception that anything that Pakistan comes up with is off-the-shelf and there's nothing indigenous about it. Until you can prove it, DON'T CLAIM IT.

Part of the original article is also rubbish as the author is making analysis using 'speculations'. He is also sold to the idea of Pakistan coming up with Babur as a result of off-the-shelf purchases and without any tests. Well let me make it clear, as early as 1998/99 tests were being carried out for sea-skimming and other devices which were basically technology demonstrators which fed the Babur program.

Then, when the Babur was developed, testing was carried out but it just wasn't made public. The one that WAS allowed media coverage was the one where all parameters had been perfected and it was more of a 'staged' test to flex our missile development muscle.

(More to come... I'll edit this post later in the day, have to go somewhere urgently!)
[post=7270]Quoted post[/post]​

Good On you Man! :thumbsup: That was some crazy stuff...
 
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Originally posted by Sid@Mar 18 2006, 11:04 PM
I am sick and tired of this Indian perception that anything that Pakistan comes up with is off-the-shelf and there's nothing indigenous about it. Until you can prove it, DON'T CLAIM IT.
I am yet to see a country carry out its "first test" over inhabited areas, unless of course they are sure of its performance. BTW its not an Indian perception its an international belief.
http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/aug-2005/24/columns4.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babur_missile
 
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I'm afraid you don't understand simple wordings which I used in my earlier posts. The test was NOT the first one. It was the first one that the media was allowed to cover! You get your information from everyday news media which only tell what they're allowed to see and tell. I get mine from elsewhere.

Originally posted by sword9
BTW its not an Indian perception its an international belief.
I'm afraid that IS just an Indian perception as there is NO international belief regarding Babur as yet. There is more than one view-point out there in defence circles and given the secrecy of Pakistan's armed forces, even they find it hard to draw conclusions.

In 1998, Pakistan recovered the first of many TomaHawk cruise missiles fired by the American navy at Taliban targets in Afghanistan which fell short of their target and landed in Pakistan and failed to explode. These 'duds' were studied to try and salvage as much technical expertise out of them and use the findings in Pakistan's quest for a reliable cruise missile. In 2005, that dream finally came true with much hard work and labor of the Pakistani scientists. SEVEN years in the making - which is a pretty decent time frame to come up with a cruise missile.

Here's a report I got hold of from Janes:

Pakistan's aerial target could spawn cruise missile

Source: Jane's Defence Weekly
ANDREW KOCH JDW Bureau Chief
Washington DC

Pakistan's Integrated Defence Systems (IDS) recently finished developing a turbojet-powered aerial target capable of simulating jet aircraft threats, company officials revealed.

The development marks the first time Pakistan has been able to develop a turbojet target variant, which could in turn represent a small technical step toward obtaining an indigenous cruise missile capability.

Called the Nishan-Mk 2TJ, the system has a maximum speed of 370km/h, a maximum range of 35km, and an endurance of 1h. The vehicle is 9ft 8in (2.9 m) long, has a wingspan of 9ft 2in, and has a 42kg take-off weight, including a 12kg payload. The air vehicle is capable of carrying a variety of payloads, including what IDS officials describe as a "sea-skimming module", smoke and infra-red flares, an acoustic and Doppler radar miss distance indicator system, radar altimeter and optical cameras.

The Nishan-Mk 2TJ's significance, however, lies in the fact that IDS is the commercial arm of Pakistan's strategic weapons development laboratory, the National Development Complex (NDC), which develops the country's solid-fuelled ballistic missiles, among other projects. Expertise from those endeavours, combined with experience in developing IDS' line of unmanned air vehicles (UAVs), would give the NDC a basis from which to develop a cruise missile, should it decide to do so. The Nishan-Mk 2TJ's engine would provide a further technical basis, as it marks the first turbojet to power any Pakistani UAV or aerial target.

So, work begins 1998 on the project, technology demonstrator tested late 2002 and finally the cruise missile delivered in late 2005. It all FITS in and makes sense!
 
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Originally posted by Sid+Mar 21 2006, 06:28 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sid &#064; Mar 21 2006, 06:28 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>I&#39;m afraid you don&#39;t understand simple wordings which I used in my earlier posts. The test was NOT the first one. It was the first one that the media was allowed to cover&#33; You get your information from everyday news media which only tell what they&#39;re allowed to see and tell. I get mine from elsewhere.

<!--QuoteBegin-sword9

BTW its not an Indian perception its an international belief.
I&#39;m afraid that IS just an Indian perception as there is NO international belief regarding Babur as yet. There is more than one view-point out there in defence circles and given the secrecy of Pakistan&#39;s armed forces, even they find it hard to draw conclusions.

In 1998, Pakistan recovered the first of many TomaHawk cruise missiles fired by the American navy at Taliban targets in Afghanistan which fell short of their target and landed in Pakistan and failed to explode. These &#39;duds&#39; were studied to try and salvage as much technical expertise out of them and use the findings in Pakistan&#39;s quest for a reliable cruise missile. In 2005, that dream finally came true with much hard work and labor of the Pakistani scientists. SEVEN years in the making - which is a pretty decent time frame to come up with a cruise missile.

Here&#39;s a report I got hold of from Janes:

Pakistan&#39;s aerial target could spawn cruise missile

Source: Jane&#39;s Defence Weekly
ANDREW KOCH JDW Bureau Chief
Washington DC

Pakistan&#39;s Integrated Defence Systems (IDS) recently finished developing a turbojet-powered aerial target capable of simulating jet aircraft threats, company officials revealed.

The development marks the first time Pakistan has been able to develop a turbojet target variant, which could in turn represent a small technical step toward obtaining an indigenous cruise missile capability.

Called the Nishan-Mk 2TJ, the system has a maximum speed of 370km/h, a maximum range of 35km, and an endurance of 1h. The vehicle is 9ft 8in (2.9 m) long, has a wingspan of 9ft 2in, and has a 42kg take-off weight, including a 12kg payload. The air vehicle is capable of carrying a variety of payloads, including what IDS officials describe as a "sea-skimming module", smoke and infra-red flares, an acoustic and Doppler radar miss distance indicator system, radar altimeter and optical cameras.

The Nishan-Mk 2TJ&#39;s significance, however, lies in the fact that IDS is the commercial arm of Pakistan&#39;s strategic weapons development laboratory, the National Development Complex (NDC), which develops the country&#39;s solid-fuelled ballistic missiles, among other projects. Expertise from those endeavours, combined with experience in developing IDS&#39; line of unmanned air vehicles (UAVs), would give the NDC a basis from which to develop a cruise missile, should it decide to do so. The Nishan-Mk 2TJ&#39;s engine would provide a further technical basis, as it marks the first turbojet to power any Pakistani UAV or aerial target.

So, work begins 1998 on the project, technology demonstrator tested late 2002 and finally the cruise missile delivered in late 2005. It all FITS in and makes sense&#33;
[post=7461]Quoted post[/post]​
[/b][/quote]

Good post Sid&#33;
Thanks :)
 
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