Indian defence & religion

[Subramanian]

Basically, there is a fact of life.

All human beings are not the same,ll never be the same.All animals are not the same,you have lionesses who r better at hunting and antelopes who r better at running away from danger.


For all those who say in India we oppress people,we dominate this that bullah,

In other countries people were killed brutally for a difference of opinion.

It is our mistake we were generous and all this dirty orifices show up at this oppurtune timing.

 

[Manas]

Disagree. British exploited India economically, socially and culturally.

Not just india ,but rest of the nonwhite world. They literally have term for it called "white man's burden".

 

[protest]

No body claimed they have any scientific reasoning dear.

It is just tradition, just like launching a US Navy ship by breaking a bottle of champagne on its hull.

Dont un-necessarily tax your mind.

I don't think champagne breaking is rooted in religion though. There won't be enormous religious ritual preceding it. May be you should take your own advise.

 

[Manas]

IMO,

it is high time we smashed these pseudo seculars off,the stench they cause our country is too high.

Let Bhagwan bless India like God bless America chanted every US president.

 

[Tamizhan]

Today I read an article by Yoginder Sikand, who used to be the typical "social activist" who specialises in bashing anything related with Hinduism or Indian tradtions and champion for the cause of those he considered oppressed, about his introspection and how the "social activist" days were just one big fraud which thrived on nothing but negativity . It accurately captures the likes of some people who like to champion for the cause of the "oppressed", "dispossesed" and "minorities". A truly eye opening article about the business of social activism.

A relevant excerpt: Why I Gave Up On 'Social Activism' By Yoginder Sikand

Imagining myself as crusading on behalf of the 'oppressed' and as being a key player in the 'struggle' for 'social justice' for a host of 'marginalised communities' turned me completely blind to every good thing in those whom I began to see as their 'oppressors' (in the Indian context, mainly 'upper' caste/class Hindus) and in what was termed, in the jargon of the 'progressives' whose ranks I so desperately wanted to join, the 'present oppressive system'. There was nothing at all good in Hindu traditions or in America or in Capitalist Modernity, for instance, I convinced myself, for I was hooked onto the 'progressive' and 'radical' rhetoric that 'upper' caste Hindus in general (including most of my own family!) and almost every single American was complicit in perpetuating 'oppression'. If you had to be counted as a 'social activist', you simply couldn't see or find anything worthy at all in 'upper' caste Hindus or in Americans, and, if you did, your sincerity and commitment were gravely suspect. So deep-rooted was this negative mentality among 'social activists' supposedly committed to the 'oppressed' that for a 'progressive' to discern anything positive about 'the present system' or Indic spirituality, for instance, was about the most serious anathema conceivable.

 

[toxic_pus]

Divide the Dalits as if they are not Hindus.

Oh no, they are Hindus all right. But you probably have no idea how differently they practice 'their' Hinduism or how such difference can be as subtle as a nuclear blast. And that is the exact point that Joe is making - that there is no universality of the so called 'culture' that you are peddling.

 

[SamantK]

I think that one should consider this scenario:

Imagine yourself, a Hindu-working on a project, or in a workplace, where almost everybody belonged to a religion whose practices and beliefs were the diametrically opposed to yours. Imagine that they periodically participated in rituals that made you distinctly uncomfortable.
Would you feel COMFORTABLE? Would you feel like you were a part of things? Participation would mean that you betray your own beliefs and non-participation would make you feel like an outsider.

The practice of religious ceremony and ritual HAS to be limited to the home and family. This is BULLYING. "There's more of us, so s****w you guys- take it or leave it."

Those who say "This is our particular brand of Secularism" are justifying the gaps and cracks in our secular system by presenting an argument like "This is the way we follow road rules in India, if there's no traffic what is the problem with jumping a red light?"
This view shows and promotes MEDIOCRITY.

I, have deep respect for our Vedic culture and traditions. This, now, it not the way it was meant to be-but there is gold in there for those who have patience to sift through all the bu*****t.

Keep it at home please.

more than that it will be more appropriate to do pooja, namaz and a sermon or whatever there is to do for whichever religion the members belong to, it is better, more prayers more good luck or whatever... I feel that concept will feel and work out most secular... what say guys?

 

[Tamizhan]

I don't think champagne breaking is rooted in religion though. There won't be enormous religious ritual preceding it. May be you should take your own advise.

And crushing lemon under the tracks also has no religious connotation. It is just a tradition.

Indic culture is inseparably intertwined with the Indian religions and there will be some religious connotations in some traditions. But overlooking them and living in harmony is the key to peace.

All this non-sense of keeping religion inside the homes gets thrown to the trashbin when I are forcibly waken up very morning by the call of Azaan which I have no intention to listen, but I am forced to or the Sunday mass which gets broadcasted all over the locality through loud speakers.

 

[Joe Shearer]

They have not been brought..they have always been there. And why should the majority always bend to the will and whims of the minority ? Anyway you are totally going on a tangent here.

I have already explained how rituals like Bhumi puja are no exclusive to Hinduism and is done in Buddhism too. So Buddhists are not minorities ?

It is a section of Abrahamic minorities who whine at every thing Indic as it purportedly offends their monotheistic dogmatic beliefs.

You must question yourself on that. These rituals were certainly not present in 1947. They have crept in, an inch at a time, through the last 65 years. This is the creeping imposition of majority rules on the minorities that leads to their discomfort.

Your reference to Buddhists having similar rituals is laughably off the track.

The objection is to Buddhists, for example, dragging in Hindus, or Christians, or Muslims, into that ceremonial would have been improper. If it is, for instance, a purely Hindu operation, nobody could have possibly objected to a ritual with roots in Hinduism. So, too, in this case.

Now, coming to possible complaints by members of the Abrahamic religions, the cat is now officially out of the bag. You have been arguing all along that these complaints do not exist. That members of those religions are content to go along with the rituals.

But what have we here?

A sudden statement - it can only be the Abrahamic religions that fear these rituals.

I thought they were in sympathy! All is not well in the Garden of Eden.

If you knew that certain individuals objected, why did you present other points of view? Amnesia, or deception?

 

[Subramanian]

No,it varies in different states.

Many Dalits also have similar hindu beliefs and practices and they have lost nothing but gained as result of it.

They are thankful they stuck to this rather than not.

 

[Tamizhan]

Oh no, they are Hindus all right. But you probably have no idea how differently they practice 'their' Hinduism or how such difference can be as subtle as a nuclear blast. And that is the exact point that Joe is making - that there is no universality of the so called 'culture' that you are peddling.

Please mate, we all travel around and I have travelled my fair share, atleast in my native state and there is not much perciptible difference in how the Dalits practise Hinduism or we OBCs do it. They take their new bike to the temple for puja, they do Vasthu Puja before starting a construction, they do celebrate all festivals we celebrate if that is what the upper-caste practises as is insinuated.

Sure subtle differences might be there, but saying that a Dalit Hindu will be offended if some one does a Puja while inaugarating a new facility is ridiculous.

I think that one should consider this scenario:

Imagine yourself, a Hindu-working on a project, or in a workplace, where almost everybody belonged to a religion whose practices and beliefs were the diametrically opposed to yours. Imagine that they periodically participated in rituals that made you distinctly uncomfortable.

Look mate,no offence, but you like it or not the truth is India is a deeply religious nation and the traditions like these which have been there for ages are deeply embedded in the psyche of vast majority of the people and as such will continue to be done.

I advise people not to loose much sleep over it and indulge in more productive work.

Actually what is the problem???

This thread has appeared from nowhere so it is difficult to grasp what the discussion is about???

If it is some scientist placing mock up of PSLV in some temple then what is the problem in that?

The scientist is acting in his personal capacity and is well within his right of freedom of religion to offer anything to the god he believes in or praying for the success of his endeavour.

What does anybody else has to do with this?

Enlightenment at last !

Now tell this to Mr. Joe.

 

[Manas]

Oh no, they are Hindus all right. But you probably have no idea how differently they practice 'their' Hinduism or how such difference can be as subtle as a nuclear blast. And that is the exact point that Joe is making - that there is no universality of the so called 'culture' that you are peddling.

Forget dalit ,even Adibasis of Odisha observes hindu rituals like any other caste Hinduss. They worship idols Hindu god/godess at home like any other hindu households.

while pseudo seculars and neo dalits chruch agents peddle poisons in the minds of dalits and Adavasis against hindu religion,Hindu religion is kicking and thriving among the dalits and celebrated in Adavasi areas like never before.

 

[Joe Shearer]

As usual,

Any force/belief that lets us shed our ego and helps us to place genuine work/effort is a positive element and in India,religion is what it is.

If Man can control everything with his brains and luck/chance played no part,world would not be seeing Tsunamis and Earthquakes.

Is it your contention that placing lemons under vehicles, or not starting any significant journey or venture during Rahu Kaalam, and the like, will avoid Tsunamis and Earthquakes?

 

[Tamizhan]

You must question yourself on that. These rituals were certainly not present in 1947. They have crept in, an inch at a time, through the last 65 years. This is the creeping imposition of majority rules on the minorities that leads to their discomfort.

These rituals were there long before you came here, literally.

The Vasthu Shastra that is the basic of Bhumi Puja was written about 2000 years ago, before the Son of the Lord allegedly walked this earth.

So please save us this, " it was not there for 47" thingy.

Now, coming to possible complaints by members of the Abrahamic religions, the cat is now officially out of the bag. You have been arguing all along that these complaints do not exist. That members of those religions are content to go along with the rituals.

But what have we here?

What part of "section of Abrahamic minorities" (that was bolded in post # 117) you did not understand ?

That "section of" refers to supremacists like you who look down upon these Indic traditions as pagan rituals not worthy of your superior faith.

p.s.: The cat was out of the bag the time you based your reasoning for opposing them based on your religion and not rationality,science as you first claimed. So please get down from the high horse.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Basically, there is a fact of life.

All human beings are not the same,ll never be the same.All animals are not the same,you have lionesses who r better at hunting and antelopes who r better at running away from danger.


For all those who say in India we oppress people,we dominate this that bullah,

In other countries people were killed brutally for a difference of opinion.

It is our mistake we were generous and all this dirty orifices show up at this oppurtune timing.

Is that your argument? That animals behave in that way, hence we can behave like animals?