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Hahah classic trick of the snake oil sellers. Divide the Dalits as if they are not Hindus.

The veneer is fast falling off Mr.Joe.

Traditions built in last 65 years ? It is better to remain silent than open your mouth and remove all doubts.


I strongly doubt that the Dalit will allow anybody to incorporate him into their plans. They are reaching political activism slowly.

Hahah classic trick of the snake oil sellers. Divide the Dalits as if they are not Hindus.

The veneer is fast falling off Mr.Joe.

Traditions built in last 65 years ? It is better to remain silent than open your mouth and remove all doubts.

Stings, does it? To realise that you have single-handedly given the moral victory to those who predicted that you would be unable to handle freedom?

lolz... I can see frustration building up, why don't you go back to your venture and force people to not do anything religious, why troll here? If this was the point, why did you discuss so much, you could have simply put up a point that it would have been better if due consultations were done with minority? :blink:

Haven't you read my earlier posts? That has already been done, several years ago.

The discussion was needed to fill in the gaps in information that were displayed. By you among others.

Let the people who hate them walk out.

Why? It is their project as much as anybody else's.

No it will start like this only. It is the classic case of the camel getting inside the tent.

I couldn't agree more. First the imposition of these majoritarian rules. Then the restrictions, one by one. Then the exclusions.

IMO,

it is high time we smashed these pseudo seculars off,the stench they cause our country is too high.

Have you realised that as you lose political ground steadily, the time will come when you and your bigoted friends are the ones asked to stay in Qatar, and not bother to come back?

Is there any public law banning their conduct ? If not, case dismissed.

You are a supremacist bigot Mr.Joe , who believes these pagan traditions pollutes your faith and saying that hiding behind the veneer of a rationalist et al.

Ah, another bigot declares himself. So you have come to the conclusion that I am religious, and belong to the Christian faith. How petty. Think again. Your conclusions and your reasoning, both, are erroneous.

But tomorrow if a Christian project head places a mock up at the foot of Mother Mary in Velankanni I would not be so butt hurt and screaming murder. I am confident enough to say, let Mother Mary bless that too.

BTW next time some Puja happens read a prayer from Bible too if that is what it takes to make you feel secure. I assure you no Hindu would be offended. *facepalm*

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Why they should be smashed??

If their ideals are defective,they should be countered by logic.


I have strong dislike for communists but i would like to prove them wrong by pointing towards destruction communists have brought forth in every country that adopted communism.The current euro crisis proves that their junior brother socialists are also avant grade idiots.

The Communists are discredited, and on the run. But that by itself does not provide an answer. Assume that they are gone; they are gone in Bengal and probably will wither away in Kerala. And who then, in your opinion, are the people in the right? The Congress? Or the Sangh Parivar?
 
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I want to throw this question at the members here - There are certain Hindu practices like goat sacrifice especially in TN villages. If someone wants to bring this practice to the workplace - Let me sacrifice a goat as I want my tank to do well (say it happens in Avadi) - what is your take on this one?
 
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And crushing lemon under the tracks also has no religious connotation. It is just a tradition.

Indic culture is inseparably intertwined with the Indian religions and there will be some religious connotations in some traditions. But overlooking them and living in harmony is the key to peace.

All this non-sense of keeping religion inside the homes gets thrown to the trashbin when I are forcibly waken up very morning by the call of Azaan which I have no intention to listen, but I am forced to or the Sunday mass which gets broadcasted all over the locality through loud speakers.

Why have you not objected to it? That is the kind of cowardly conduct that erodes secularism.

No,it varies in different states.

Many Dalits also have similar hindu beliefs and practices and they have lost nothing but gained as result of it.

They are thankful they stuck to this rather than not.

How do you know? On the other hand, have you read Kancha Illaiah?
 
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And crushing lemon under the tracks also has no religious connotation. It is just a tradition.

Indic culture is inseparably intertwined with the Indian religions and there will be some religious connotations in some traditions. But overlooking them and living in harmony is the key to peace.

All this non-sense of keeping religion inside the homes gets thrown to the trashbin when I are forcibly waken up very morning by the call of Azaan which I have no intention to listen, but I am forced to or the Sunday mass which gets broadcasted all over the locality through loud speakers.

Do you even consider minority scientists to be Indians? A call for Azaan is not intended for Hindus but for Muslims. I am astonished that it somehow still bothers you as I am sure you have been hearing it all your life every single day. It hardly lasts 5 minutes. Most Hindus wouldn't even know that an Azaan is in progress. Anyways, these two are completely different examples, as people of different religions have participation in national projects where as in Azaan its not. Why not have a secular opening party while in private they could pray for their own God's grace?
 
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Enlightenment at last !

Now tell this to Mr. Joe.

Nobody anywhere objected to an individual's private actions. The discussion has entirely been upon the usurpation of the public space.
 
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What kind of wacko would hurt his sentiment for Bhumi pooja ritual or breaking coconut during a celebration of a hindu festival??

I know idiots who wont come out of the hostel rooms or apartment building to join some pooja ,but thats their individual choices.

But people opposing some harmless hindu religious celebration or ritual on the ground that it " might " hurt some minorities sentiment... I've yet meet to such wackos . That 'cause they are so rare to find.I'm sure even the minorities don't agree with them .

We are not talking about your private home rituals sunny but rather on opening of national projects with Hindu rituals. Obviously you do know that most of these National projects have members of different religious groups. Isn't it imposing on their faith by simply ignoring their sentiments. Why not have a Christian opening ceremony?

And crushing lemon under the tracks also has no religious connotation. It is just a tradition.

Indic culture is inseparably intertwined with the Indian religions and there will be some religious connotations in some traditions. But overlooking them and living in harmony is the key to peace.

All this non-sense of keeping religion inside the homes gets thrown to the trashbin when I are forcibly waken up very morning by the call of Azaan which I have no intention to listen, but I am forced to or the Sunday mass which gets broadcasted all over the locality through loud speakers.

Don't tell me that you believe Hindu religious ceremony only entail a crushing of lemon or breaking of coconut. Its an elaborate process sometimes lasting hours appeasing Hindu Gods. Your comparison of secular champagne breaking (read no rituals involved) with Hindu religious Bhumi Puja is beyond ridiculous. All we are saying is India is secular country as such National projects should also be secular in character.
 
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99% of TamilNadu,please.

Most people dont,all it took was some fair skin and propoganda for MGR to rout the the idealogically perfect iconoclastic DMK,

Even in the good old days, the Justice party won jackshit,people kept on voting for the Congress.

The only reason people voted for DMK was rice getting expensive due to a drought in 1965 and the emotional blackmailing of the DMK rousing linguistic pride.

As always Joe Shearer, you have zero knowledge about the actual reality and you read your newspapers and make superficial opinions.

And they still keep voting for the Dravidians, either for the AIADMK or the DMK? all for the drought in 1965? Aren't you fooling yourself rather solidly now? What is the percentage of the vote that they got, and what did the Congress get?
 
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this discussion is going no where.. for me if any act is not harming anyone in the community it is good to go.......

adding to that.. in childhood , elders used to say if you speak any lies your eye will go blind , god will take your eye...etc. , we all know these all utter BS.. but as long as it helps the children not to say any lies or anything... these kind of things are fine for me

But
Wearing flowers on head or kumkum is a choice of fashion.
Forcing a widow not to wear kumkum, flowers is superstition and irrational.
 
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How do you know? On the other hand, have you read Kancha Illaiah?

Kancha Ilaiah? Interesting that the same cast of figures keeps getting mentioned again and again.

About Kancha Ilaiah and his so-called "Dalit Freedom Network" -

"Breaking India" (pages 220 to 222) pertaining to Dalit Freedom Network (DFN):

[BEGIN EXCERPT]:

Dalit Freedom Network, based in Colorado, USA, is an example of a West-run organization that professes to champion Indian Dalit emancipation through policy advocacy in the power centers of the USA. It describes its mission as, 'to follow the command of Jesus Christ who called us to be "the salt of the earth" and "the light of the world". (23) It was founded in 2002 by Dr. Joseph D'Souza, head of the All India Christian Council (described later in this chapter), along with Nanci Ricks, a former missionary (24)...[....]DFN uses a Dalit face to hide the fact that it is the hardcore operational wing of American right-wing designs on India. The Dalit label gives it the social status to intervene in Indian causes, as it did in a California textbook controversy in 2006. The Wall Street Journal reported how DFN gave testimony in support of the negative stereotyping of Indian culture. They positioned themselves as Hindu untouchables:

Other Hindu groups -- including members of the 'untouchables' caste -- entered the fray on Mr. Witzel's behalf. The Dalit Freedom Network, an advocacy group for untouchables, wrote to the education board that the proposed Vedic and Hindu Education Foundation changes reflected 'a view of Indian history that softens...the violent truth of caste-based discrimination in India...Do not allow politically-minded revisionists to change Indian history.[unquote] (36)

The textbook controversy was useful to establish DFN's credentials as a legitimate humanitarian advocacy group. This is quite typical of how lobbying groups establish credibility in the US.

[END OF EXCERPT]

Ref: From Page 225 of Breaking India:

Kancha Ilaiah: ‘We Want to Kill Sanskrit’

Another important ideologue being globally promoted by DFN as ‘the leading Dalit rights campaigner’, is Kancha Ilaiah. DFN awarded him a post doctoral fellowship.[49] One of his books, Why I am not a Hindu, is prescribed in introductory courses on Hinduism at many American universities. Koenraad Elst, a Belgian Indologist, reviewed the book and found parallels with the anti-Jewish caricatures in Nazi literature:


These anti-Hindu forces are exploiting the Aryan Invasion Theory to the hilt, infusing crank racism in vast doses into India’s body politic. Read, e.g. Kancha Ilaiah’s book Why I Am Not a Hindu (Calcutta, 1996), sponsored by the Rajiv Gandhi Foundation, with its anti-Brahmin cartoons: move the hairlocks of the Brahmin villains from the back of the head to just in front of their ears, and you get exact replicas of the anti-Semitic cartoons from the Nazi paper, Der Stumer.[50]

Equally vehement is Ilaiah’s hatred for Sanskrit. Indian Express reports that he made a strong presentation before India’s National Conference on Human Rights, saying, ‘We want to kill Sanskrit in this country.’[51] In an interview he also advocated, ‘We should close down the IITs and the IIMs as they pander to the upper-caste economy of the country.’[52] Ilaiah’s work illustrates how the Dalit movement has absorbed the rhetoric of the Dravidian separatists, such as demonizing Sanskrit and Hinduism as being the roots of oppression. Much of India’s shared heritage is made out to be the root of Dalit grievances.

The Christianity Today magazine lists among Ilaiah’s achievements that, ‘he recently testified at a widely-reported Congressional hearing in the USA,’ in which he blamed Hinduism for ‘the ongoing reality
of violence and discrimination against Dalits.’[53] In an interview with Christianity Today, he equated Hinduism with Nazism, and characterized it as ‘spiritual fascism’. His argument relies upon Hitler’s
misappropriation of Hindu symbols, for which he blames Hinduism.

‘Hinduism is a kind of spiritual fascism,’ he explains, ‘because the Hindu books say that Aryans wrote that, and Nazi Germany Hitler believed he belonged to an Aryan race’; and hence, ‘the symbols that Hindus and Aryan Germans used are the same, the swastika and the concept of a few people always being superior to the other . . . So Hinduism is a very spiritually fascist system and because of that our country has suffered in many ways.[54]

Ilaiah is routinely hosted by evangelical organizations to tour the United States, with the goal of building him up as a great leader of civil rights, and thereby upgrading his influence. For example, Texas based organization Gospel for Asia announced:

Gospel for Asia is pleased to host Dr Kancha Ilaiah, one of India’s most influential human rights leaders. . . . What Martin Luther King, Jr. meant to the civil rights movement in this country, Dr Ilaiah means to the civil rights movement in India today. . . . In his role as consultant to the All India Christian Council, he advises leaders on the socio-economic, religious, and political conditions among India’s
lower castes. [55]
 
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I want to throw this question at the members here - There are certain Hindu practices like goat sacrifice especially in TN villages. If someone wants to bring this practice to the workplace - Let me sacrifice a goat as I want my tank to do well (say it happens in Avadi) - what is your take on this one?

There is a practical nature to things,

thats why nobody ll sacrifice a goat in front of a tank.

Why have you not objected to it? That is the kind of cowardly conduct that erodes secularism.



How do you know? On the other hand, have you read Kancha Illaiah?

yeah,i have and he has nothing to do with TN or its culture.

How do i knw?

I know because i still have a grandfather living in a archaic village in the deep south and i m well travelled all across TN and i know the existent realities there.

I have friends who hail from villages all across TN.

well,i just know it like the back of my hand.
 
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You have made yourself abundantly clear that you oppose these rituals because your religion does not sanction them and hence they should not be celebrated because a certain section of minorites feel 'persecuted' by it.


....and what religion would that be? "Joe Shearer" is just a moniker; does not imply that he belongs to a particular religion though for the life of me, I can't figure out why that should be relevant.
 
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And they still keep voting for the Dravidians, either for the AIADMK or the DMK? all for the drought in 1965? Aren't you fooling yourself rather solidly now? What is the percentage of the vote that they got, and what did the Congress get?

Do u have any idea about the nature,support base of AIADMK?

If you think they are the same as DMK,just because of its similarity in names u r so mistaken,

Just go and see who form the cadre base of AIADMK,the policies of its founder MGR and how much they are in sync with the values of DK/DMK.

The funniest thing is how you take the votes of TN folks seriously,

I mean they coolly vote out whoever is in power brutally showing their disinterest in politics and even happily accepted money large scale to vote which proves again of their disinclination towards policy or ideology of any kind.

I mean we guys gave 26 constituencies to the Congress 2 days after the war in SriLanka and you are taking them seriously.

If u seriously think AIADMK is a dravidian party,think again.

Infact the funny thing in TN,TN remains vociferously Hindu even after getting rid of the Brahmins,which shows a lot.
 
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One of the great contributions of Rajiv Malhotra's "Breaking India" book is to show how many of the so-called "liberal" activists are being aggressively promoted and funded by foreign anti-India nexuses.
 
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I am against anything brought to the streets in the name of religion. Azaan or church bells or the dec month early morning hindu religious songs blaring at every street corners. And I hate Marxism to the core. But I am an athiest. So do not generalize.

well,thats ok but i feel we should learn to tolerate things.
 
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There is a practical nature to things,

thats why nobody ll sacrifice a goat in front of a tank.


Care to explain the non-practical nature of sacrificing a goat in front of a tank? And aren't you making a sweeping statement when you say nobody will sacrifice or attempt to sacrifice a goat in front of a tank?

Anyways, in a hypothetical situation when someone attempts this, would you tolerate this practice especially if that person tries it in your workplace?
 
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