What's new

Indian Brahmos missle crashes in Mian Channo

Amazing because MKIs never emitted anything or turned on there radars. Because as we know Tarang RWR is not deeply integrated with Bars, and you have to turn off radar for using RWR.

That’s is the shortcoming PAF realised in 2019? That is written in CAG report. They must start reading these literature.

And yes, IAF was expecting furball. That is other thing that there assessment was wrong, and were overestimating PAF’s intentions.

As for BrahMos, I know for sure, even IAF shocked that BrahMos capable of such massive manoeuvre at mach 2.

Thanks to Pakistan, IAF now know new capabilities of BrahMos.
Wow, you have to turn off your radar to use the RWR? Yikes!!

Actually the P-800 could do turns before the idea of Brahmos existed. Those turns have a radius of 30km but doesn’t mean it couldn’t.
Would help if you know the P-800 or even the Bazalt that came before it.

Just because you are going at mach 3 doesn’t mean you cannot turn, just that your turn radius takes a lot longer and in this case took 50km to
Complete.

But , sure.. every thing that you want to portray is correct and anything is hearsay.

This is why the PAF waited to shoot the missile down...
Yes, you cannot let loose an active Sam when you have commercial aviation or even your own aircraft in play. Something the Indians don’t really care about is civilian lives so why should they start now?
 
.
This is why the PAF waited to shoot the missile down...

Hi,

That is a geographic weakness that pakistani air space has.

What if the missile strike was real---?

Pakistan needs to change the flight routes of the aircraft flying in and out---.
 
.
Hi,

That is a geographic weakness that pakistani air space has.

What if the missile strike was real---?

Pakistan needs to change the flight routes of the aircraft flying in and out---.
in times of military escalations or confrontations, there would not be any civilian traffic flying over Pakistan in which case, the missiles wouldn't make it to the border, it would be shot down before or at the border by HQ9P batteries as they allegedly have s range of 300km. but indians were trying to be slick by using a well known air traffic route and try to hide their missile behind a dozen civilian airliners. but alas, being a heck of a lot faster than airliners, it was only a matter of time before it would surpass the airliners and be in an airspace where it could safely be intercepted without endangering any passenger plane. in that sense, it is very real risk that so as long as we have air traffic coming from the indian side, that risk would always remain. there is only one way to address that, stop all air traffic flying from india ...that, way, any time we see a blimp coming in from india, we are clear to shoot it down as soon as it reached the border. it will piss off a lot of countries and airline businesses but we don't have a choice since at best india has proven their incompetence to handle sensitive tech and at worst they purposefully hid the missile behind airliners. until the world puts check regimes on all indian missiles, ballistic or cruise, Pakistan just should not risk it since for all practical intents
and purposes, we have a monkey in our east sitting on gunpowder keg with a match in its hands. the world can either put severe checks on their arsenal or put sanctions on them to comply or just except the additional cost of most being able to fly over india and Pakistan...that's for them to decide.
 
.
Wars on the Brink (@WarsontheBrink) Tweeted:
If this bloomberg report about India & Pakistan missile incident is correct then it looks increasingly difficult to believe it was just an “accident”.

Power being shut down to avoid any further launches possibly means there were more missiles on the launcher set to be fired
 
.
You were prescient, while I was a dove. Maybe it was due to our divergent natures, but seeing the results I had to accept your opinion as correct. Leadership entails an ability to foresee & game different outcomes. Preparedness is the key. PA should have foreseen this & prepared to gain advantage with help of PAF. We could have escalated to our advantage, only if the leadership had guts & could have foreseen this. I blame both, the civilian leadership as well as the military leadership. Its like India provided us with an excuse to declare our nuclear status with bangs & we choose to do nothing but a cold test.

A prepared list of targets could have been engaged from Working Boundary all the way to Siachen to gain local advantages & prepare for the inevitable reaction. With a cowed IAF & a bewildered IA, Modi would have decided to escalate but the world powers would have intervened with long-term advantage to Pakistan. BJP could still have won, but Modi would have had a hard time clinging to power. Whatever that would come next would come but we would have been well-established & secure.

It was a squandered opportunity because generals were busy with managing their blue-eyed boy.

An alternative scenario would be that Bajwa had never played politics, Faiz Hameed would have done his actual job, our Western flank would be more secure, & our relation with USA & China would have been better. In this scenario, track-II diplomacy & engagement with Modi would not have given BJP government space to do what India did in 2019. The region & the world would have been a much better place.

All this talk of war & blood really is pointless. South Asia has huge challenges & the leadership (all kinds, most countries) is making idiotic decisions.
If Pakistan had fired a Nuke capable missile into India the Indians would have faked a dummy Nuke warhead and cried about it to the UN for a decade, Pakistan certainly did lose a good opportunity to take advantage of the Indian puerility. I suppose Pakistan was not aware Indians can be that stupid and definitely taken aback by the Indian missile launch. People of Pakistan need to awaken to the fact that the reality of Nuclear war just fell on it's door step. Sad as it may be the pugnacious Indians have just proven the depth of their evilness and that their nukes aren't just deterrence but prospective first strike weapons.
 
Last edited:
.
Wow, you have to turn off your radar to use the RWR? Yikes!!

Actually the P-800 could do turns before the idea of Brahmos existed. Those turns have a radius of 30km but doesn’t mean it couldn’t.
Would help if you know the P-800 or even the Bazalt that came before it.

Just because you are going at mach 3 doesn’t mean you cannot turn, just that your turn radius takes a lot longer and in this case took 50km to
Complete.

But , sure.. every thing that you want to portray is correct and anything is hearsay.


Yes, you cannot let loose an active Sam when you have commercial aviation or even your own aircraft in play. Something the Indians don’t really care about is civilian lives so why should they start now?
Sorry, the lives of millions over ride the safety of an airliner. Can you imagine the consequences if that missile had a live nuke warhead, we can expect anything from the Nazi government next door?
-"Yes, you cannot let loose an active Sam when you have commercial aviation or even your own aircraft in play. Something the Indians don’t really care about is civilian lives so why should they start now?"
 
.
Sorry, the lives of millions over ride the safety of an airliner. Can you imagine the consequences if that missile had a live nuke warhead, we can expect anything from the Nazi government next door?
-"Yes, you cannot let loose an active Sam when you have commercial aviation or even your own aircraft in play. Something the Indians don’t really care about is civilian lives so why should they start now?"
The track would have been engaged by another asset if it had crossed a grid line. If anything it was safer to engage it in that terminal phase of its because it would keep civilian assets safe.

However, that is the problem with first strike systems. Lets say you shot it down and it did happen to have a nuke but one of your missiles went and hit a Emirates flight.
By the time you determine what the missile was carrying and impact you are already dealing with the fallout of civilian deaths while trying to prove that it had radioactive material on board.
Then, the UAE and other nations want you to compensate even though India was the one that launched a nuke even if they claim it was an accident. Now do you launch a live one in return and tackle those consequences and end up as the aggressor despite telling the world you didn’t fire the first shot?

What if you shot this one down and got civilian traffic? What then, what if India claims nothing of the sort happened and that you fired on an airliner accidentally?

Remember, the western world is biased against you and will believe India 4 times out of 5 on any claim you make. Knowing that what Pakistani foreign office and decision makers face is 5 times more difficult than whatever the Indians face.

It’s not a good choice that is the issue, it is bad choice A and bad choice B with consequences
 
.
The track would have been engaged by another asset if it had crossed a grid line. If anything it was safer to engage it in that terminal phase of its because it would keep civilian assets safe.

However, that is the problem with first strike systems. Lets say you shot it down and it did happen to have a nuke but one of your missiles went and hit a Emirates flight.
By the time you determine what the missile was carrying and impact you are already dealing with the fallout of civilian deaths while trying to prove that it had radioactive material on board.
Then, the UAE and other nations want you to compensate even though India was the one that launched a nuke even if they claim it was an accident. Now do you launch a live one in return and tackle those consequences and end up as the aggressor despite telling the world you didn’t fire the first shot?

What if you shot this one down and got civilian traffic? What then, what if India claims nothing of the sort happened and that you fired on an airliner accidentally?

Remember, the western world is biased against you and will believe India 4 times out of 5 on any claim you make. Knowing that what Pakistani foreign office and decision makers face is 5 times more difficult than whatever the Indians face.

It’s not a good choice that is the issue, it is bad choice A and bad choice B with consequences
By the time any Nuke missile reaches the Pakistan border it would be too late for Pakistan as different nuke warheads are primed to explode at different heights. All Indian nuke missiles need to be shot down above India, but even the fallout from them would hurt Pakistan. At times of Nuke war no nations value the views of any other nation it becomes a do or die scenario and the sensitivities of foreign nations is the least to consider. Even now after the Indian weapon fire Pakistan will do whatever it needs to ensure even more thorough deterrence. Shucks so it seems now we have "degree" of deterrence. This will be a wake up call for China and Iran too.
 
Last edited:
.
in times of military escalations or confrontations, there would not be any civilian traffic flying over Pakistan in which case, the missiles wouldn't make it to the border, it would be shot down before or at the border by HQ9P batteries as they allegedly have s range of 300km. but indians were trying to be slick by using a well known air traffic route and try to hide their missile behind a dozen civilian airliners. but alas, being a heck of a lot faster than airliners, it was only a matter of time before it would surpass the airliners and be in an airspace where it could safely be intercepted without endangering any passenger plane. in that sense, it is very real risk that so as long as we have air traffic coming from the indian side, that risk would always remain. there is only one way to address that, stop all air traffic flying from india ...that, way, any time we see a blimp coming in from india, we are clear to shoot it down as soon as it reached the border. it will piss off a lot of countries and airline businesses but we don't have a choice since at best india has proven their incompetence to handle sensitive tech and at worst they purposefully hid the missile behind airliners. until the world puts check regimes on all indian missiles, ballistic or cruise, Pakistan just should not risk it since for all practical intents
and purposes, we have a monkey in our east sitting on gunpowder keg with a match in its hands. the world can either put severe checks on their arsenal or put sanctions on them to comply or just except the additional cost of most being able to fly over india and Pakistan...that's for them to decide.

Hi,

Please think hard---in the first strike---there won't be any notifications given by the enemy.

Pak military needs to plan ahead of time.
 
.
Hi,

Please think hard---in the first strike---there won't be any notifications given by the enemy.

Pak military needs to plan ahead of time.
I know that. my suggestion was a way to make sure that there first strike won't get to hide behind airliners and the costs will be more punitive in their air travel going westward. if we see anything going from the east to west, we intercept and strike back simultaneously. but that's just me. I'm sure that our military higher ups have more viable ideas.
 
Last edited:
.
I guess Modi + Shah has made all Pakistanis to engage in war-gaming activities, and waste their time.

One random missile with no warhead, and everyone random pakistani is wasting their time and whatever little is left of their sanity.



Yes sir, please keep thinking very very hard....and start investing in systems to engage first strike......

Please keep spending your time and money on this. There is nothing better to do..
When our first strike systems land at your end, trust me when I say this - your celebrated SAMs will not be able to counter even one.

You can screenshot this to keep as a reminder for the next engagement.
 
.
As for BrahMos, I know for sure, even IAF shocked that BrahMos capable of such massive manoeuvre at mach 2.

Thanks to Pakistan, IAF now know new capabilities of BrahMos.
IAF is too incompetent to test their missiles or enter the right coordinates? So in a nuclear war can we expect Brahmos missiles to blow up Delhi and Mumbai for us?

One random missile with no warhead, and everyone random pakistani is wasting their time and whatever little is left of their sanity.
Most Pakistanis neither know nor care about your failed missile. As an Indian on a Pakistani forum on a thread about the incident, WTF do you expect to find?
 
.
I guess Modi + Shah has made all Pakistanis to engage in war-gaming activities, and waste their time.

One random missile with no warhead, and everyone random pakistani is wasting their time and whatever little is left of their sanity.



Yes sir, please keep thinking very very hard....and start investing in systems to engage first strike......

Please keep spending your time and money on this. There is nothing better to do..
War gaming is not a waste of time as the Indians found out in Ladakh.
 
.

National security.
For insiders. By insiders.


THE CURIOUS CASE OF THE ACCIDENTAL INDIAN MISSILE LAUNCH​

CHRISTOPHER CLARY
MARCH 17, 2022
COMMENTARY
nirbhay final

With global attention fixed on Ukraine, you could be forgiven for missing something that would have been major news in more normal times: An Indian cruise missile landed in Pakistan last week. It appears to have been an accident and, thankfully, it appears to have been unarmed, but any missile fired from one nuclear-armed country at another demands closer scrutiny. The episode raises a series of questions about safety and security procedures that Indian authorities need to address. Perhaps this accident will even prompt India to reconsider long-dormant diplomatic proposals to reduce nuclear risks in South Asia.
What do we know about the episode so far? On March 9, shortly after sundown, a cruise missile was launched from somewhere in western India. According to a briefing from Pakistan’s Inter-Services Public Relations directorate, the missile was located in the vicinity of Sirsa, India, at 7:13 p.m., then proceeded to fly at a high altitude in a southwesterly direction, before making a gradual right turn south of the Indian city of Suratgarh in the direction of Pakistan. It then crossed the international border before flying more than 100 kilometers into Pakistani airspace, where it eventually crashed harmlessly near the small Pakistani city of Mian Channu. Its total flight time was less than seven minutes.

BECOME A MEMBER

After two days of silence, the government of India acknowledged that “in the course of a routine maintenance, a technical malfunction led to the accidental firing of a missile.” While the full course of correspondence between India and Pakistan has not been revealed, several media accounts indicated the dedicated army-to-army hotline was not used to inform Pakistan of the errant missile. Pakistan’s national security advisor also criticized India for not having informed Pakistan “immediately,” and foreign ministry statements imply that India did not acknowledge the flight until after Pakistan had briefed the media.
While Pakistan’s public posture was forceful in criticizing India for the accident, condemning India’s “callousness and ineptitude,” its overall response was “low-key,” as the New York Times observed. Subsequent media accounts have suggested Pakistani authorities had considered and perhaps even prepared for retaliation until its assessment of the crash site found no meaningful damage on the ground. The Pakistan military’s conclusion that the missile was “certainly unarmed” may have contributed to their decision to respond with public derision and nothing further.
The Indian defense minister told parliament that a review of India’s maintenance and safety procedures was underway, along with an inquiry into the causes of the launch. Luckily, the apparently accidental launch occurred during a boring Wednesday evening for the subcontinent’s sometimes fraught interstate politics. The 2019 Balakot crisis, though, offers a template of circumstances in which an errant cruise-missile launch could have proved catastrophic rather than merely embarrassing. That earlier crisis had begun following a suicide-bomb attack on Indian paramilitaries in Kashmir, which had led to tit-for-tat standoff air attacks between the Indian and Pakistani air forces. In the course of those skirmishes, an Indian pilot was shot down and captured by Pakistan. According to subsequent accounts, India threatened to escalate violence further if its pilot was not returned unharmed, including reportedly explicit threats to launch a missile attack on Pakistani targets. Prime Minister Narendra Modi later told campaign crowds he had threatened a “qatal ki raat” (a night of bloodshed) if the Indian pilot was not released. As Vipin Narang and I commented at the time, “South Asia was a couple of wrong turns away from serious escalation.” It does not take a particularly creative imagination to conclude that an inadvertent missile launch in that atmosphere might have led to something different than a somewhat staid Pakistani press conference.
Sometimes accidents happen despite the best protocols and training. Scott Sagan has argued famously that there are “limits of safety” both because of the sheer randomness of existence and because of organizational pathologies that manifest even in military units that prize safety as a mission. The U.S. nuclear weapons and missile safety track record is hardly inspiring. Yet even grading on a curve, India’s inadvertent launch stands out. While deadly military accidents were disturbingly common during the Cold War, last week’s episode may be the first inadvertent launch of a cruise or ballistic missile by one nuclear power unto the territory of another nuclear power. Additionally, while accidental launches often occur during exercises, their occurrence during routine maintenance is less common, if for no other reason than typically there are numerous physical safeguards to prevent a missile’s flight in such circumstances. Thus, when a Pershing 2 misfired during maintenance in Germany in 1985, the missile remained stationary and clamped to its launcher “because it was not in a firing configuration,” the U.S. Army explained. There are tales among old artillery officers of missiles launching without such clamps removed, resulting in launch vehicles being dragged into the air and crashing a short distance later. What positive steps do Indian crews have to take before their missiles can be fired? Do design or procedural changes need to take place to prevent a recurrence of this episode? Hopefully India’s inquiry will seek to answer these questions.
The other disturbing characteristic of this episode is India’s apparent lack of haste in communicating with Pakistan about the accident. No state would like for its advanced technology to land in the territory of an opponent, in part because of the potential compromise of technology and secrets that exploitation of the crash site would offer. Perhaps India hoped Pakistan would simply not notice, or that it wouldn’t find the debris. Alternatively, perhaps India was uncertain as to the missile’s trajectory and assumed that it had not strayed into Pakistan. The Indian defense minister told parliament that after the accident, “it was later learnt that the missile had landed inside the territory of Pakistan.” How much later? He didn’t say. What seems to have been a two-day delay in notification appears to contradict India’s obligations under a 1991 agreement with Pakistan on preventing air space violations which obligates both sides “if any inadvertent [airspace] violation does take place, the incident will be promptly investigated and the Headquarters (HQ) of the other Air Force informed of the results without delay, through diplomatic channels” [emphasis mine].
Almost a decade ago, I argued that India’s opacity about safety and security issues was inconsistent with its nuclear-weapons status and its great-power aspirations. “Closed organizations develop pathologies that are often harmful to the broader public interest,” I worried. Whether India’s opacity contributed to this episode is uncertain. The changing nature of India’s explanation in these early days has not been reassuring. Was the accident a result of “routine maintenance,” as India said in its official press release of March 11? Was it the result of “routine maintenance and inspection,” as India’s defense minister told parliament on March 15? Was it the result of a “simulation exercise” gone awry, as one of India’s largest newspapers reported on March 16? Transparency seems needed here, if for no other reason than to convince the Indian public that they are safe from accident. A majority of the missile’s flight trajectory, after all, was over Indian territory — Indian cities, towns, and villages that might have suffered from this accident that mercifully caused no harm to either country.
In addition to visible oversight at home and fulfilling the obligations of prior confidence-building measures, India may wish to consider whether new confidence-building measures are appropriate to demonstrate its safety and security credentials. With back-channel talks between India and Pakistan apparently stalled on the difficult issues surrounding Kashmir, confidence-building measures can give diplomats and militaries a chance to show that meaningful progress is possible even as political dialogue continues. A proposal to establish dedicated, secure lines of communication to discuss nuclear-related issues has been on the table for almost two decades, and such a “hotline” would have been a more natural forum to discuss last week’s accident than the existing link between India and Pakistan’s senior army officers. Similarly, though it is unlikely to have averted this accident, adding cruise-missile flight test notifications to the existing ballistic-missile flight test notification regime between the two countries seems like a good idea. Additionally, it is still uncertain why India’s missile pursued the path that it did. Was it unguided? Was it heading to a specific target but for some reason failed to reach it? The episode does seem to reinforce the wisdom of a 1994 agreement between the United States and Russia to target their long-range ballistic missiles to open ocean areas by default, so that in the absence of an explicit input of target coordinates the missile would fly to an area where it could do no damage. While the short range of some Indian and Pakistani nuclear-capable missiles likely precludes open ocean as a default target, both countries could declare that they will set the guidance systems of their weapons by default to unoccupied areas, such as the vast Thar desert, where they pose as little danger as possible. Using actual coordinates for an adversary target in an exercise, as some of the admittedly contradictory reporting suggests occurred in this case, seems exceptionally ill-advised and should be stopped if it has been a past Indian practice.
It is impossible to wring all the risk out of dangerous weapons. Brinksmanship works, to some extent, because the processes that unfold during a crisis are only partly controllable. They produce “threats that leave something to chance.” Yet the missile episode reinforces that policymakers should be under no illusions that they can fully control these weapons. Military organizations make mistakes, those mistakes cause accidents in peacetime, crisis, and war, and those accidents can be dangerous and deadly. While a full accounting of the causes of the March 9 launch remains to be done, and may never become publicly known, it is consistent with numerous odd and bizarre accidents that have occurred before in nuclear-armed militaries. “Things that have never happened before happen all the time in history,” Sagan observed three decades ago. Inadvertent cruise-missile launches on nuclear opponents are now definitively no longer on that “never happened before” list. We will be lucky if the next surprise is similarly inconsequential.

BECOME A MEMBER

Christopher Clary is an assistant professor of political science at the University at Albany and a nonresident fellow with the South Asia program of the Stimson Center in Washington, D.C. His book, The Difficult Politics of Peace: Rivalry in Modern South Asia, will be released by Oxford University Press this summer.
Image: Press Information Bureau (Government of India)
 
.
When our first strike systems land at your end, trust me when I say this - your celebrated SAMs will not be able to counter even one.

You can screenshot this to keep as a reminder for the next engagement.
not to mention their supposedly invisible brahmos did get intercepted...
 
.

Latest posts

Country Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom