Indian Army's Muslim headcount: 3%

[shravan]

If they had any choice than I don't think you woul dbe having scarcitiy of Muslims in your army. which is self explanatory.

Suddenly Human Shields have disappeared.

 

[graphican]

Please stay in a poor place (Slums). You will understand what comes first.

I have learnt from you what comes first to you! (Slulms) Good! I can see a reflection of "love for muslims in Indians already"! great going!

LOL. Lets ask for a fair share of money from the Oil rich Arabs. I don't want to see a single poor Muslim on this earth.

How is this anywhere near your argument? an attempt to quench your desire to bash?

I have Muslims friends who will help me first (they might not even help other Muslims) and I will also do the same. There are somethings which are deeper than religion. You will never understand.

You still have got 3% Muslims in your army. So there are people who tend to think on your lines but not all of them. Muslims are not hostile to any state until unless "they" are hostile towards us. Do not think Muslims would prove bad friends or they are any less-social than you are. But when it comes to Muslims against Muslims and Muslim against Non-Muslims, Muslims know with whom they should stand.

That's why I asked about the Jains.

You supported my argument. Jains also have relegious reasons not to enter the Indian Army. Why do you think Muslims are not doing so? Janis are non-violent and Muslims are non-secular.

 

[haawk]

You all are speaking in the favor of my argument! Muslims are Muslims First before being Indian. And when they "become Indian", they have to see Pakistan as their "Enemy State". But we know

"Every Momin (true believer) is brother of every other Momin and strengthens it just like a brick holds another brick and constitutes strong building" Holy Prophet Muhammad PBUH.

So why hasn't this "Secular Paint" changed color of Muslims in India? if there are 3% Muslims in the army, the collective sum of rest of the religions would not be more than 1% and that means, an army of 94% Hindus is Army of Secular State. Is it?

What is criteria of some Muslim to enter the army? How do you find if somebody is "Suitable Muslim"? By picking up people who are low at faith?

now dont come to conclusions.......in india the remaing muslims are busy making missiles for the indian army




"True muslim"- is a word i ve failed to understand.....i ve seen too many people who claim to be true muslims.....including taliban ......

And you dont have any authority to even assess the belief of our indian muslim brothers in god........god himself can do that........


i still dont understand who gives people the authority to say that this person is a believer and this person is not........if you think you believe in god it doesnt mean that you are a true believer and the other is not--------false beliefs of superiority like the one that you have is what makes organisations like the taliban..,al queda consider them selves having the authority of deciding true believers.....just give up this cheap mentality of estimating the level of others beliefs because you dont have that authority

 

[shravan]

I have learnt from you what comes first to you! (Slulms) Good! I can see a reflection of "love for muslims in Indians already"! great going!

For the majority of us (Indians & Pakistani's) water, Food comes first. Not even religion or relatives.

How is this anywhere near your argument? an attempt to quench your desire to bash?

What bash? If Muslims come first then its other rich Muslims responsibility to look after the Poor Muslims. And trust me Muslims countries have lots of Money. And they spend most of it on luxury which you & me can't even dream.

You still have got 3% Muslims in your army.

Did the government force the 3% Muslims to join the army ?

So there are people who tend to think on your lines but not all of them.

Lot of them. And i have seen people here also who think on the same line.

But when it comes to Muslims against Muslims and Muslim against Non-Muslims, Muslims know with whom they should stand.

There are other countries other than India & Pakistan who fight each other. And some of the are Muslim Countries fighting each other. Wake up and smell the coffee.

'Muslim First' is good for political & power gaining.
---

Lets assume the entire world population is Muslim (and all belong to one sect.). Do you think there will no wars or fights ?

You supported my argument. Jains also have relegious reasons not to enter the Indian Army. Why do you think Muslims are not doing so?

What ever their reasons are I don't care neither does the government. But forcing them to join Army is not an option. It a personal option and its better if its left at that.

 

[graphican]

@haawk,

There are Muslims in Baluchistan who have joined hands with Jews and are deluded to be on the right path. No one is judge but the Book of God and Ahadith of Prophet Muhammad PBUH. What kind of "Hindu that would be that would fight against other hindus and would prepare to assesinate them, would build messiles to destroy them in thousands and would try to eliminate from earth followers of his own faith" ? You dont need to be a propet to understand simple relegious values. For Muslims, a person who is following book of God and Ahadith, would be on the right path, even if he is among Al-Qaida, Taliban, Working in Indian Nuclear Laboratories or Standing on Indian Border Carying Guns towards Pakistan. Criteria is just one, Book of God and Ahadith of Peophet PBUH. Period. Dont listen to what everybody is saying, Read the Quraan and Ahadith to know the rules. The one who follows them fully is on the right path. And book of God and Ahadith tell us clearly, Yahood and Hanood would never be your friends, they never where and they never will become! Learn, Its not that we are asked not to be your friend but its your reality that's being told! You have one life to prove if Quraan is right or your own Mentality! Go on and take the challenge!

 

[graphican]

Indian first? muslim first?

Neither Indian First, nor Muslims First, Let God and the Book be the first! You will get your answer.

 

[Bhushan]

Once again posting the complete list of gallantry awards awarded to Muslim soldiers and officers.

Not a complete list:

Param Vir Chakra

Company Havildar Major Abdul Hamid, (4 Grenadiers)

Maha Vir Chakra

Mohammed Ismail: 1947-48 Operation
Brig. Mohammed Usman: Indo-Pakistan War

Ashok Chakra
The Ashok Chakra is awarded for valour, courageous action or self-sacrifice away from the battlefield. It is the peace time equivalent of the Param Vir Chakra and is awarded for the "most conspicuous bravery or some daring or pre-eminent valour or self-sacrifice" other than in the face of the enemy.

Vir Chakra

Kirti Chakra
Kirti Chakra is awarded for valor, courageous action or self-sacrifice away from the battlefield. It is the peacetime equivalent of the Maha Vir Chakra. It is second in order of precedence of peacetime gallantry awards.

2007: Mohd. Shan Ahmed (posthumous) was posted as Cash Overseer at post office Jhansi. On 26 December, 2005, resisted looting of cash and in the attempt succumbed to fatal injuries inflicted by armed miscreants. He belonged to Jhansi (UP).

Shaurya Chakra
The Shaurya Chakra is the third level award for gallantry away from the battlefield and by far the nearest equivalent of the Vir Chakra Award for Peacetime.

2009:
Lance Havildar Aziz Mohd: 20 Jammu and Kashmir Rifles (Posthumous)
Sapper/Operator Executive Machinery Budhu Khan (Posthumous)
Naik Mohd Sadiq

2008:
Rifleman Abdul Hamid Chara: 162 Infantry Battalion TA (H&H)JAK LI/18 Rashtriya Rifles(posthumous)

2007:
Rifleman Raiece Ahmad Ganaie: Jammy & Kashmir Light Infantry/50 Rashtriya Rifles

2006:
Havildar Mohammad Maroof: 23 Rajput Regiment,
Havildar Abrahim: Jammu And Kashmir Light Infantry/47 Rashtriya Rifles
Rifleman Riyaz Ahmad Bhat: Assam Regiment/35 Rashtriya Rifles

Bar to Sena Medal (gallantry)

Sena Medal (gallantry)

2009:
Havildar Ilyas Ali: 32 Assam Rifles
Lance Naik Javaid Ahmad Wani: Jamm and Kashmir Light Infantry// 44 Rashtriya Rifles
Rifleman Mohamad Hadish: 24 Assam Rifles (Posthumous)

2008:
Subedar Mohd Rashid: Jammu and Kashmir Rifles/28 Rashtriya Rifles
Naik Mohammed Amin Bhat: Jammu and Kashmir Light Infantry/62 Rashtriya Rifles
Sepoy Abdul Hamid: 153 Infantry Battalion (TA) Dogra
Sepoy Abdul Hamid: 156 Inf Bn TA (H&H) Punjab/58 Rashtriya Rifles
Sepoy Qumer-ud-din Beg: 156 Inf Bn TA (H&H) Punjab/58 Rashtriya Rifles
Rifleman Ishtiaq Ahmed: Jammu and Kashmir Light Infantry/18 Rashtriya Rifles
Rifleman Mehmood Ahmed Itoo: Jammu and Kashmir Light Infantry/33 Rashtriya Rifles
Rifleman Mohd Yousaf Lone: 161 Infantry Battalion TA (H&H) JAK LI
Rifleman Mazafar Iqbal: 14 Assam Rifles

2007:
Captain Anas Ahmad: 19 Kumaon Regiment
Lance Naik Mehmood Shah: 3 Jammu and Kashmir Light Infantry
Sepoy Mohd Sharief: 159 Infantry Batallion (TA)(H&G) Dogra, 23 Rashtriya Rifles
Sepoy Jabir Khan: Mechanised Infantry/9 Rashtriya Rifles
Rifleman Gohar Ali Khan: Jammu & Kashmir Light Infantry/19 Rashtriya Rifles
Rifleman Mohammad Sayed Mantoo: Jammu & Kashmir Fiels/18 Rashtriya Rifles
Rifleman Abdul Rahim Dar: 162 Infantry Battalion (TA) JAK LI/14 Rashtriya Rifles
Rifleman Nazir Ahmad Wani: 162 Infantry Battalion (TA) JAK LI/14 Rashtriya Rifles
Rifleman Md Ibrahim Khan: 33 Assam Rifles

2006:
Company Havildar Major Mohammad Ashraf Sheikh: 22 Maratha Light Infantry.
Lance Naik Farooq Ahmad Rather: 20 Jammu And Kashmir Rifles

Param Vishisht Seva Medal
The Param Vishsish Seva Medal is awarded to recognize "distinguished service of the most exceptional order" to all ranks of the armed forces. In practice, however, the award tends to be granted only to the most senior officers of the various branches of the Indian military. The award may be granted posthumously and subsequent awards are represented by a bar worn on the ribbon. The award carries with it the right to use "P.V.S.M." as postnominal letters.

2008:
Lieutenant General Zameer uddin Shah, SM, VSM: Regiment of Artillery(General Cadre)

Ati Vishisht Seva Medal

2009:
Major General Syed Ata Hasnain, SM, VSM: Infantry: HQ 19 Infantry Division

Vishisht Seva Medal

2009:
Air Commodore Naseem Akhtar: Flying (Pilot)

2008:
Group Captain Zia Ahmad Rizvi: Logistics

Sena Medal

2009:
Brigadier Khurshid Maneck Balsara: Naga Regiment
Brigadier Pattiarimal Mohamadali Hariz, VSM: Mechanised Infantry/ HQ 91 Infantry Brigade

2008:
Colonel Steve Muzaffar Ismail: 2/1 Gorkha Rifles
Subedar Mohd Ilyas: 3, Jammu and Kashmir Light Infantry Regimental Centre

Nao Sena Medal (gallantry)

Vayu Sena Medal (gallantry)

2009:
JWO Jawed Hussain Siddiqi, Flt Eng

Mention-in-dispatches

2009:
Rakshak:
Lance/Naik Abdul Rashid Khan: Territorial Army, 5 Rashtriya Rifles
Rhino:
Captain Mudassar Iqbal: 2 Bihar

 

[Saint N sinnerr]

Aa com on U cousins... WHY do U have to see an Indian as a Hindu / Muslim/Sikh / Christian... we are all Indians.. Tell U somthing mate... WHy dont U have a poll (Biased poll) How MANY % of muslims want to live in Prosperous Inida and how much want to live in Dated pakistan... com on NO hard feelings. Now somebody willl lsend a link from Pak that Kashmiri Muslims want to be with pakistan , but what U dont understand is Kashmiri Muslims doesnt represent All the Indian muslims... U wont understnad that , u only want to be happy in ur own fantasy world..
Cheerio !!

 

[eastwatch]

You all are speaking in the favor of my argument! Muslims are Muslims First before being Indian. And when they "become Indian", they have to see Pakistan as their "Enemy State". But we know

"Every Momin (true believer) is brother of every other Momin and strengthens it just like a brick holds another brick and constitutes strong building" Holy Prophet Muhammad PBUH.

So why hasn't this "Secular Paint" changed color of Muslims in India? if there are 3% Muslims in the army, the collective sum of rest of the religions would not be more than 1% and that means, an army of 94% Hindus is Army of Secular State. Is it?

What is criteria of some Muslim to enter the army? How do you find if somebody is "Suitable Muslim"? By picking up people who are low at faith?

If you read through the Muslim history of India, you will see that whatever the muslims say today about momin or no-momin, muslims shed more muslim bloods than they shed the hindu blood. The last of those large-scale killing happened in 1971 war between Pakistan and Bangladesh.

The present internal wars in Pakistan are also among the muslims. So, the so-called united momin is just a jargon without a base. Recruit Muslims in the Indian army at random and you will see how the muslims annihilate each other when a war breaks out between India and a muslim country.

 

[Patriot]

Also every muslim should think about his country first.Any Muslim in India who thinks he is not indian and muslim first and helps Pakistan in war is a biggest traitor of India and should be hanged in streets of India!Same goes for Pakistani Hindu/Sikh/Christian.

 

[Tango25]

Stop dreaming graphican. Anyone who knows the first thing about Middle-eastern politics knows that pan-Islamism is a virtual myth, the refrain of Al-Qaida type fringe groups to justify their violence.

The Iranians loath the Arabs, and the Arabs loath South Asians. Turkey is a secular country whose citizens put their country first every day.

The people of Indonesia and Malaysia do the same.

Only in countries like Pakistan, do these ideas acquire credibility in the mainstream. Divorced as they are from their own traditions and history, they look up to the middle-east for a sense of false identity

 

[pmukherjee]

I will not castigate you for quoting from a blog, but that is never a good thing, instead I will take your post on its face value. What I object to is that you have qouted a part of the blog-post, the part that suits you and you have left out the part that does not suit your agenda .

Allow me to complete the quote, it says:-
These figures neither make me happy nor sad.
The fact remains that if competent, a Muslim can rise in India, and has more chances than any other country. This I hold true despite all the charges of discrimination, riots, personal experiences of bias..

The second part which you missed out, tells the whole story.

There is no bar on muslims joining the Army or rising to high ranks. There have been many to have done so.
Perhaps you can motivate them to join the India Army? We have a volunteer Army you know? No body can pull out a young lad from his house to recruit him, he has to stand in the queue and compete with the others for the available vaccancies.

The fact , my friend is that Muslims can live and prosper in India just as well as they can in Pakistan.

 

[Screaming Skull]

@ Graphican

You are playing a dangerous game buddy. First of all you quote from a blog that does not provide any source or link to the claims made there.

The Indian army does not provide data on the composition of the force by religion to any body. So, it is impossible for any one to report the exact number of Muslims in the Indian Army. So, any source that you provide other than a GoI source has no credibility whatsoever!

That said, the GoI did constitute a high level committee under the Chairmanship of Justice Rajindar Sachar for the preparation of a report on social, economic and educational status of the Muslim community of India. The committee submitted its report in Nov 2006. Here is the full report-

http://godgraces.org/files/Muslim%20Report.pdf

Quoting directly from the report-

The Committee received data from the Navy and Air Force. However, the Ministry of Defence informed the Committee that it was not possible for it to supply the data for the Army. It also requested the Committee not to use the data which had already been sent to the Committee by the Air Force and Navy. Thus, in the Report, the Committee has not used the data received from the armed forces.

Hence, there is no official data available from the government that supports your claim of 3% Muslims in the IA.

However, we can guess that the Muslim representation in the IA is not proportionate to the total Muslim population in India and the reasons for that can be found in this piece written by Colonel (Dr) Anil Athale (retd) voicing his concerns over the entire Sachar committee fiasco.

After its projects to change Indian history to 'secular' history, the United Progressive Alliance govt seems to have launched a project to make the army 'secular'.
The Indian Army is an apolitical, professional body that is extremely proud of its dharma of loyalty to the nation and its Constitution. It does not believe in practising discrimination on the basis of religion, caste or colour.

I felt a tremendous sense of pride when at an Independence Day function in Pune in 2002 (in the aftermath of the horrible Gujarat riots) Qutubuddin Ansari, the tailor from Ahmedabad who became famous as the face of that tragedy, told me it was the Indian Army's timely arrival that had saved him and his family.

In an emotion choked voice, he said throughout his life he would pray for the success of the Indian Army. Many officers and men have told me how Muslims greeted the army's arrival by showering them with flowers. The army's impartial conduct in quelling riots is a matter of great pride to all soldiers.

'We are an apolitical and secular force'

The Indian Army is a traditional force and many battalions are organised on the basis of regions and caste. Thus we have the Sikh regiment, the Marathas, the Gorkhas etc. But this does not apply at the officer level. So it is no surprise to see a Mohammed Zaki commanding Garhwali troops or a Y N Sharma as commanding officer of the Grenadiers(which incidentally has Muslim soldiers).

As head of the family, which is what a commanding officer is, it is common for Zaki to conduct the puja on Janmashtami, celebrating the birth of Lord Krishna, or for Sharma to lead the namaz on Id Ul Fitr after Ramzan.

Faced with an insurgency in Kashmir that freely uses religion as a motivating factor, the army has has constructed combined prayer halls, called Sarva Dharma Sthal ( All Religion Place of Worship) where you have all the gods and symbols of all religions under one roof. These can be found at in Anantnag in Kashmir and even in Pune.

It is undoubtedly true that the number of Muslims in the Army is less than their proportion in the population. This is a historical legacy as the recruitment of Muslims in the armed forces in pre-Independence India was concentrated in Punjab, North West Frontier and Balochistan, all part of Pakistan today.

A similar argument can be also made on the basis of region. The states of Orissa or Gujarat or even Andhra Pradesh are not represented in proportion to their population. To assume any bias on this basis is to see evil where none exists.

The all-wise Sachar Committee has initiated an exercise that is fraught with great danger as it hits at the very notion of fair play. The basis on which this exercise is being carried out is a book by an American citizen, Omar Khalidi, (Khaki and Ethnic Violence in India). Khalidi works at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in the United States. As a matter of record, he had got in touch with me about two years ago seeking data on the Indian Army. It is another matter that seeing his intention, I and my colleagues refused any cooperation. But he obviously has won over Sachar and party.

We ought to smell a *** when the Sachar Committee approvingly quotes from Khalidi's book and makes it as the basis for its 'work.'
What every soldier finds most objectionable in the exercise is Sachar's notion of equating the armed forces with any other department of the central government. Could Mr Sachar please tell us in which other organisation is dying for the country part of the 'job'?

The committee also had the gall to say that the army made 'unnecessary fuss about this on grounds of regimental spirit and cohesion.' Do the Sachar committee members realise that the two factors -- regimental spirit and cohesion -- are the very soul of any army?

These are the factors that bind soldiers and officers to each other. People sacrifice their lives on the battlefield for the izzat (respect) of the regiment and save their comrades at the risk of their own lives.

Without these an army is merely a mob of armed violent men which would melt at the first sign of danger. When someone terms this as 'frivolous', it betrays a mindset that is not merely stupid, but dangerous.

Diary: Soldiers' God

Finally, a word about desertion during Hyderabad action (in 1948-1949) and Turtuk problem during the Kargil operations in 1999.

During the Hyderabad action, the Indian Army was in process of division between India and Pakistan on grounds of religion. To call these acts as desertion would label the entire Pakistani army as 'deserters.'

During the Kargil operations, the small population of Turtuk area was a complex issue. This area, right till 1971, was part of Pakistan and was captured during that war. The area had many ex-soldiers of the Pakistani army, still receiving pension. To expect them to become pro-India was not fair. So what was proposed (possibly) during the Kargil war, was not evacuation of Muslims, but evacuation of ex-Pakistanis from a sensitive battle zone. Are there any such reports regarding the Muslim population of Kargil, Dras etc?

Many former and serving soldiers believe that this data collection is the thin end of the wedge of introducing religion or caste-based reservations in the armed forces.

The Sachar Committee's bias has been clearly shown by their reliance on foreign research. It is time the government prohibits the Sachar Committee from dealing with the armed forces.

This does not mean that the government should not ask the army to conduct an exercise as to why the proportion of Muslims or Christians or Gujaratis is less in the armed forces.

Finally a counter question to the Sachar Committee: What is the proportion of Muslim employees in Muslim-owned companies like Wipro and Cipla? If it is less than their proportion in population, do we take it that the Muslim owners of these companies are also against the minorities?

Is there no limit to 'vote bank' politics, for the sake of which a government is prepared to destroy the efficiency and cohesion of its armed forces and jeopardise the nation's security?

-Colonel (Dr) Anil Athale (retd)

Muslims in the Army: A dangerous census

Also read the views of Omar Khiladi from MIT whom Col. Athale is blaming for adversely influencing the Sachar Committee.

Did his book spark off the army census?

 

[Saint N sinnerr]

You all are speaking in the favor of my argument! Muslims are Muslims First before being Indian. And when they "become Indian", they have to see Pakistan as their "Enemy State". But we know

"Every Momin (true believer) is brother of every other Momin and strengthens it just like a brick holds another brick and constitutes strong building" Holy Prophet Muhammad PBUH.

So why hasn't this "Secular Paint" changed color of Muslims in India? if there are 3% Muslims in the army, the collective sum of rest of the religions would not be more than 1% and that means, an army of 94% Hindus is Army of Secular State. Is it?

What is criteria of some Muslim to enter the army? How do you find if somebody is "Suitable Muslim"? By picking up people who are low at faith?

Thats most demeaning comment I came through since I joined def.pk. ... what the heck do U mean by "A muslim is a muslim first then an Indian" ? If U r a pakistani with more extreme views than U should keep them to yourself , an Indian Muslim will NOT tolerate that BS. adn U DONT speak for us Indians , .. u only speak for yourself.

 

[pmukherjee]

Stop dreaming graphican. Anyone who knows the first thing about Middle-eastern politics knows that pan-Islamism is a virtual myth, the refrain of Al-Qaida type fringe groups to justify their violence. The Iranians loath the Arabs, and the Arabs loath South Asians. Turkey is a secular country whose citizens put their country first every day. The people of Indonesia and Malaysia do the same. Only in countries like Pakistan, do these ideas acquire credibility in the mainstream. Divorced as they are from their own traditions and history, they look up to the middle-east for a sense of false identity

Tango, you have hit the nail on the head, excellent for a new poster. Any one who is looking for an identity greater than his own identity, clearly, is not happy with his identity in the first place. The rest is garbage.