Indian Army News & Discussions

[selvan33]

How many reserve troops we have ?

11,29,000 active personnel
9,60,000 reserve personnel

 

[S-DUCT]

Dispute between Army and Air Force Regarding Fighter Helicopters ( via MOD Press )

There is no dispute between Army and Air Force for control of fighter helicopters. Keeping in view operational requirements, Government has decided that ownership of future inductions of attack helicopters will vest with the Army.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Mansukh L.Mandaviyaand Shri ParshottamKhodabhaiRupalain Rajya Sabha today.

X-posting from BRF.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

X-posting from BRF.

INEVITABLE Decision.
INTELLIGENT Decision.

 

[sancho]

Government has decided that ownership of future inductions of attack helicopters will vest with the Army

Which doesn't necessarily include the Apaches, since the order is already done and that would be a silly decision, if they spared them, just to please IAF.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Which doesn't necessarily include the Apaches, since the order is already done and that would be a silly decision, if they spared them, just to please IAF.

It's a done deal. Apaches are going to the IAF, expect a separate tender for heavy attack helos floated by the IA before the end of this decade is what I am hearing!




Or the AAC will simply get their Apaches as a follow-on to the IAF units later this decade.


Either way I'd have to say the AAC is going to be seriously stretched for the next decade at least with all the new inductions (ALH, Rudra,LCH,LUH etc) and maybe it is a good thing they find their feet before graduating straight onto the "top-dog" aka AH-64E.




Anyway, the Indian military loves their duplication of services!!

 

[Capt.Popeye]

It's a done deal. Apaches are going to the IAF, expect a separate tender for heavy attack helos floated by the IA before the end of this decade is what I am hearing!

Or the AAC will simply get their Apaches as a follow-on to the IAF units later this decade.

Either way I'd have to say the AAC is going to be seriously stretched for the next decade at least with all the new inductions (ALH, Rudra,LCH,LUH etc) and maybe it is a good thing they find their feet before graduating straight onto the "top-dog" aka AH-64E.

Anyway, the Indian military loves their duplication of services!!

@Abingdonboy; do not get too hyper on this. The AAC needs time to set up their act completely. Which importantly includes setting up the complete infrastructure for reapair and overhaul of all kinds of Helos. Let them work with the Rudras in the mean-time. Inevitably and eventually; control of the Apaches (including follow-ons) will pass into their control.

 

[sancho]

Anyway, the Indian military loves their duplication of services!!

But that doesn't mean MoD have to fulfill every of their dreams. However, there is still a chance, that they divert them Apaches after arrival, when the Mi 35 that currently are operated in IA, will be phased out. Would be a blow for IAF, but the only sane choice. We can't afford to buy such expensive helicopters for IAF, without any use when IA is supporting it's troops with their own attack helicopters anyway.
I find it interesting that so many complained about the Mirage 2000 upgrade costs and nobody bothers about $44 millions each Apache, although we have Rudra now and LCH soon. Where is the cost comparision here?

 

[Abingdonboy]

@Abingdonboy; do not get too hyper on this. The AAC needs time to set up their act completely. Which importantly includes setting up the complete infrastructure for reapair and overhaul of all kinds of Helos. Let them work with the Rudras in the mean-time. Inevitably and eventually; control of the Apaches (including follow-ons) will pass into their control.

@Capt.Popeye sir, I have tried to say as much in my post but you have articulated it much better than I! I agree with all that you have said.

 

[Abingdonboy]

But that doesn't mean MoD have to fulfill every of their dreams. However, there is still a chance, that they divert them Apaches after arrival, when the Mi 35 that currently are operated in IA, will be phased out. Would be a blow for IAF, but the only sane choice. We can't afford to buy such expensive helicopters for IAF, without any use when IA is supporting it's troops with their own attack helicopters anyway.
I find it interesting that so many complained about the Mirage 2000 upgrade costs and nobody bothers about $44 millions each Apache, although we have Rudra now and LCH soon. Where is the cost comparision here?

lol, you raise good points for sure @sancho! But what you are touching upon is the complete ignorance to military matters present in the mindset of the MoD! The defence departments the world over are filled with serving and recently retired military personnel, the Indian MoD is almost entirely devoid of such employees and as such its ranks are filled with pencil-pushing bureaucrats who know very little about defence matters.


And I agree with your hypothesis that sooner or later the Apaches will find their way to the IA's AAC as will, I pray, the IAF's medium and heavy lift rotary-wing fleet but this is a battle the IAF and IA haven't even had yet but is surely brewing.......

 

[sancho]

lol, you raise good points for sure @sancho! But what you are touching upon is the complete ignorance to military matters present in the mindset of the MoD! The defence departments the world over are filled with serving and recently retired military personnel, the Indian MoD is almost entirely devoid of such employees and as such its ranks are filled with pencil-pushing bureaucrats who know very little about defence matters.

Logically, IA needs the combat helicopters and at least the bulk of the Mi 17 for troop transport and support roles, while IAF should remain with Mig 17s, 26 and in future Chinooks for uttility and cargo roles, next to their fixed wing fleet. Especially in disaster relief roles, this combo would ease operations, instead of trying to combine operations of 2 forces again.


And I agree with your hypothesis that sooner or later the Apaches will find their way to the IA's AAC as will, I pray, the IAF's medium and heavy lift rotary-wing fleet but this is a battle the IAF and IA haven't even had yet but is surely brewing.......[/QUOTE]

 

[Abingdonboy]

Logically, IA needs the combat helicopters and at least the bulk of the Mi 17 for troop transport and support roles, while IAF should remain with Mig 17s, 26 and in future Chinooks for uttility and cargo roles, next to their fixed wing fleet. Especially in disaster relief roles, this combo would ease operations, instead of trying to combine operations of 2 forces again.

@sancho do you not think the IA should go the US way and put all such rotary-wing assets under the Army's control?

 

[SR-91]

OFF TOPIC QUESTION!!
@sancho, @Abingdonboy, or anyone with knowledge

Is there any combat training exercise where all branches get together and take part???

 

[sancho]

@sancho do you not think the IA should go the US way and put all such rotary-wing assets under the Army's control?

First of all, none of our forces should do anything like the US or any other country does it, because they have their operational goals and requirements, we have ours!
US army for example is placed at various bases all over the world and not in every country where they are, they have also a USAF base. The CH 47 in the US army has a different role than will have in IAF, so you can't simply take it over without looking at our own needs.
As I said, for IA the addition of combat helicopters and the bulk of the Mi 17s makes the most sense, since they will support the troops directly. IAF on the other side, must still be able to transport cargo or troops / personnel for other forces in and around India and that not only with fixed wing aircrafts. That's why they still will need a part of the Mi 17 and definitely the heavy lift fleet too. The only reason for combat helicopters in IAF, would be escorts, or special ops and here Rudras will be best suited at low costs.

OFF TOPIC QUESTION!!
@sancho, @Abingdonboy, or anyone with knowledge

Is there any combat training exercise where all branches get together and take part???

Not sure, but if I remember correctly the amphibious exercises included IA troops and vehicles, IN vessels, but also IAFs aircrafts. Maybe @Joe Shearer can tell you more about it.

 

[Abingdonboy]

First of all, none of our forces should do anything like the US or any other country does it, because they have their operational goals and requirements, we have ours!
US army for example is placed at various bases all over the world and not in every country where they are, they have also a USAF base. The CH 47 in the US army has a different role than will have in IAF, so you can't simply take it over without looking at our own needs.
As I said, for IA the addition of combat helicopters and the bulk of the Mi 17s makes the most sense, since they will support the troops directly. IAF on the other side, must still be able to transport cargo or troops / personnel for other forces in and around India and that not only with fixed wing aircrafts. That's why they still will need a part of the Mi 17 and definitely the heavy lift fleet too. The only reason for combat helicopters in IAF, would be escorts, or special ops and here Rudras will be best suited at low costs.

But why does the IAF need heavy-lift helos? I just can't see it. The majority of the missions the CH-47Fs will fly will be in support of the army so why not just give the IA the Chinooks/Heavy-lift helos?? I see the only roles the IAF needs helos for being Spec Ops and SAR/CSAR. For these roles, I agree, the ALH WSI is an excellent option although I would also like to see the CV-22 (for Spec Ops support) and the HH-60G PaveHawks (purely for the Garuds and CSAR missions). Other than that all the IAF's rotoary wing assets should be transferred to the IA or retired.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

OFF TOPIC QUESTION!!
@sancho, @Abingdonboy, or anyone with knowledge

Is there any combat training exercise where all branches get together and take part???

Yes there are and have been tri-service exercises. On the Gujrat coast and in Andamans & Nicobar Is.