Indian Army is mobilizing tanks and troops along the internationl boundary with Pakistan-OSINT

[MastanKhan]

Those have been counted, and are a fraction of the graves of those recruited, trained, armed and infiltrated into Kashmir. Indictment indeed; of those whose fingers pulled the trigger, or of those who pushed them in front to face bullets when their own methods and resources failed? That spilt blood will certainly come back and haunt the guilty; those who sheltered the preachers of hate, those who sheltered the organisations dedicated to terror, those whose armed forces actively participated in these subterranean wars.







It is really too much to believe that the favourite son of the military is now telling the military what to do. We saw what happened when the civilian administration tried to tighten its hold; an open coup, replacement of a legally elected government, a military dictatorship - and now we are asked to believe that the generals only pause to ask how high to jump.

If you say so, if you say so.

Why should we, or anyone else, labour the point?



This was the essence of my note, but instead of having any effect, it triggered a series of posts denying any complicity by Pakistan in the terrorism that is going on in J&K.

Oh well.....

Hi,

Legally elected govt that came in thru indian agencies sabotage---the one that has been kicked out---?

 

[Joe Shearer]

I think your story is the one that needs straightening out. Perhaps if a visa could be arranged for you to travel to that location and see the “hit” it may change your mind.

As for F-16, I remain more convinced that none were lost as if my own classmates were flying them. In a few months Aviation journos may be invited to check the aircraft, with serial and if they wish check with Lockheed Martin for accuracy. Can your side do the same?

F-16s were used, we know your side are whiners to the manufacturing country since you managed to stop the AH-1Zs and hence the precautions for plausible deniability.

The rest is just fog of war.

What comes out as common with regard to actions taken by either side is this above; for the rest, immured as those are in the fog of war, we can ignore them.

So bombs were dropped at Balakote; whether or not these hit their targets will never be known to the satisfaction of both parties, since each has its own version.

So, also, F-16s were used; let us move on beyond.

 

[randomradio]

Again:

1. Either holes or patches (from holes being repaired) should be visible in the images available (when you compare before and after)
2. A distinct difference in the roofing material (old weathered vs new material) should be visible in the before and after pictures.

The ESI pictures are from the 27th, so are you suggesting they're misrepresenting the images taken?

Finally, I' do follow Hellfire, but I place a lot more stock in independent coverage and analysis that uses actual EVIDENCE instead of someone quoting Indian sources that have essentially come up with a rehashed Bollywood version of 'Obama watching the OBL raid'.

Multiple nations have shared strike footage publicly (there's plenty of strike footage from the US in Afghanistan), so if this fantastic story of IAF video feed to Modi (showing the structures being hit was even remotely true, we would have seen the video already. It's not like its some super duper vedic camera technology that can't be shared ... or is it?

If the video exists, it's either not clear or it debunks India's claims.

Are you saying that European Space imaging is misrepresenting some other satellite imagery as that of 27th February?


According to above quoted imagery, there was no cloud cover on 27th February.

Very likely to be much older images than 27th.

“With very high resolution imagery we can see the picture in more detail. The image captured with Worldiew-2 of the buildings in question shows no evidence of a bombing having occurred. There are no signs of scorching, no large distinguishable holes in the roofs of buildings and no signs of stress to the surrounding vegetation”.

We know there has been "stress to the surrounding vegetation", which we claim are IED tests.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/wha...d-satellite-pic-may-prove-indias-case-2002060
A buildup of cloud cover over Balakot in the hours following the strikes meant that an Indian satellite was unable to collect high resolution imagery as it passed over the area later that morning.

https://thewire.in/security/five-days-after-airstrike-questions-india-pakistan
As per the unnamed government official in Indian Express, SAR imagery on first day showed that roofs had gone missing. “The SAR images are not as clear as satellite pictures and we couldn’t get a good satellite picture on Tuesday because of heavy clouds. That would have settled the debate,” Indian Express quoted the official.

There are companies which provide images of the macro areas in real time, at least updated on a daily basis.

Like this one: https://zoom.earth/
NASA satellites VIIRS, Aqua and Terra provide the daily images. Bing Maps provides the high resolution images. Globe images are captured hourly by DSCOVR.

Zoom into areas with significant cloud cover, especially over deserts. You will find that after you have zoomed close enough, aka, the high res images, the cloud cover simply disappears. It's because the high res image was taken when there was no cloud cover whereas the cloud cover is as it stands today. So it's pretty easy for people to use older images without knowing.

This is how we came to know that Balakot was under heavy cloud cover during and after the strikes.

So it's impossible for any other optical satellite to have taken the images either. Only SAR images are possible, and these are generally highly classified. And open sources ones can be quite expensive.

 

[Philip the Arab]

India has bought Jets from Russia France and Air defence systems from USA Israel Russia and Europe and PAF just went into that Air space and defeated all those air defence systems. In my understanding the message that PAF dispatched to the world is pretty much clear we can go into the air space of any country and defeat their air defenses and bomb them. It is a bigger message than destroying any target. don't you think brother?

You can't infiltrate the U.S. air defenses for sure and you can't counter that statement.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Hi,

Legally elected govt that came in thru indian agencies sabotage---the one that has been kicked out---?

I am sorry, but I didn't quite understand.

One mans terrorists is another man's freedom fighter. Adil Ahmad Dar turned against India because of heavy handed Indian security forces. Unless this is acknowledged, your comments are a waste of time here. Even western think tanks are pointing this out....as to why a bilateral framework for a Kashmir resolution is not possible. All this drama on the Indian side is changing global views on Kashmir but not in a way India wants. Keep it up. Your hurting yourself as well.

Don't waste your time reading them; save it for your dreaming.

 

[SQ8]

What comes out as common with regard to actions taken by either side is this above; for the rest, immured as those are in the fog of war, we can ignore them.

So bombs were dropped at Balakote; whether or not these hit their targets will never be known to the satisfaction of both parties, since each has its own version.

So, also, F-16s were used; let us move on beyond.

It’s the bigger picture that is being ignored. Whether what side lost what and how many is secondary to my fears that after 65 years of independence; today India is the party I see less mature in handling the situation. While terrorism is an issue with the non-state actors here a serious liability and a known realization on this side, never has that issue been twisted this much for internal politics in India nor the Indian armed forces been made poster boys for a single party whose character now toes the borderline between nationalism and religious fascism.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Very likely to be much older images than 27th.

“With very high resolution imagery we can see the picture in more detail. The image captured with Worldiew-2 of the buildings in question shows no evidence of a bombing having occurred. There are no signs of scorching, no large distinguishable holes in the roofs of buildings and no signs of stress to the surrounding vegetation”.

We know there has been "stress to the surrounding vegetation", which we claim are IED tests.

The report refers to the craters - the surrounding vegetation they refer to is the vegetation immediately adjacent to the structures.

So you’re accusing the ESI, or at least the report, of deliberately lying to support Pakistan’s position ... conspiracy theorist, or just an Indian that can’t accept Indian failure against Pakistan ...

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/wha...d-satellite-pic-may-prove-indias-case-2002060
A buildup of cloud cover over Balakot in the hours following the strikes meant that an Indian satellite was unable to collect high resolution imagery as it passed over the area later that morning.

https://thewire.in/security/five-days-after-airstrike-questions-india-pakistan
As per the unnamed government official in Indian Express, SAR imagery on first day showed that roofs had gone missing. “The SAR images are not as clear as satellite pictures and we couldn’t get a good satellite picture on Tuesday because of heavy clouds. That would have settled the debate,” Indian Express quoted the official.

There are companies which provide images of the macro areas in real time, at least updated on a daily basis.

Like this one: https://zoom.earth/
NASA satellites VIIRS, Aqua and Terra provide the daily images. Bing Maps provides the high resolution images. Globe images are captured hourly by DSCOVR.

Zoom into areas with significant cloud cover, especially over deserts. You will find that after you have zoomed close enough, aka, the high res images, the cloud cover simply disappears. It's because the high res image was taken when there was no cloud cover whereas the cloud cover is as it stands today. So it's pretty easy for people to use older images without knowing.

This is how we came to know that Balakot was under heavy cloud cover during and after the strikes.

So it's impossible for any other optical satellite to have taken the images either. Only SAR images are possible, and these are generally highly classified. And open sources ones can be quite expensive.

Then point this out to the Western agencies and analysts performing the analysis. Until then what they’re offering is scientific fact and what you’re offering is largely Indian sourced conspiracy theories.

Soon you’ll be arguing that this is all part of a British plot to have the new East India Company take over India.

 

[Joe Shearer]

It’s the bigger picture that is being ignored. Whether what side lost what and how many is secondary to my fears that after 65 years of independence; today India is the party I see less mature in handling the situation. While terrorism is an issue with the non-state actors here a serious liability and a known realization on this side, never has that issue been twisted this much for internal politics in India nor the Indian armed forces been made poster boys for a single party whose character now toes the borderline between nationalism and religious fascism.

You do realise that I cannot bring myself to say these extremely bitter things. Not after so many Cassandra years.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

whether or not these hit their targets will never be known to the satisfaction of both parties,

Joe,

Drop it already, please. I have too much respect for you to see you reduced to denying clear facts (independent satellite imagery analysis) because Hellfire (another poster that I respect) has been hoodwinked (and I understand the motivation behind a former military man believing his peers) into believing tall tales about ‘live video feeds showing the destruction’ that fly in the face of all the evidence debunking Indian claims.

Random Radio has essentially now outright accused the ESI of fabricating the date on the satellite images they used (and to what end would they do that, I ask) for analysis of Indian claims. This is what happens when even rational Indians such as yourself are reduced to defending the indefensible.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Joe,

Drop it already, please. I have too much respect for you to see you reduced to denying clear facts (independent satellite imagery analysis) because Hellfire (another poster that I respect) has been hoodwinked (and I understand the motivation behind a former military man believing his peers) into believing tall tales about ‘live video feeds showing the destruction’ that fly in the face of all the evidence debunking Indian claims.

Random Radio has essentially now outright accused the ESI of fabricating the date on the satellite images they used (and to what end would they do that, I ask) for analysis of Indian claims. This is what happens when even rational Indians such as yourself are reduced to defending the indefensible.

I am not defending anything; merely pointing to the usual fanciful narratives put out by all parties.

 

[VCheng]

tall tales about ‘live video feeds showing the destruction’

The record shows clearly that there is exaggeration in the claims being made.

 

[randomradio]

The report refers to the craters - the surrounding vegetation they refer to is the vegetation immediately adjacent to the structures.

So you’re accusing the ESI, or at least the report, of deliberately lying to support Pakistan’s position ... conspiracy theorist, or just an Indian that can’t accept Indian failure against Pakistan ...

Then point this out to the Western agencies and analysts performing the analysis. Until then what they’re offering is scientific fact and what you’re offering is largely Indian sourced conspiracy theories.

Soon you’ll be arguing that this is all part of a British plot to have the new East India Company take over India.

It's really simple logic. There was cloud cover over Balakot on the day of the strike and many days following it.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

It's really simple logic. There was cloud cover over Balakot on the day of the strike and many days following it.

That’s your claim. Ask the ESI how they got the images then. Until you get an answer, I’ll believe independent analysts over your conspiracy theories.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Sir,

I fail to see where the provocations were from the Pakistani side. Let's follow the chain of events:

- IAF strikes targets within Pakistan
- PAF strikes targets inside India. In the process, chasing IAF interceptors cross into Pakistan and are shot down

Where is the provocation or escalation from the Pakistani side? PAF rightly so responded, and struck targets within inside India to showcase that it retains the ability to respond. IA's military installations were painted, but at no point were they targeted.

Forgive me for smiling at this very selective narrative.

You have started the story from the 26th of March; I beg you to consider the cumulative burden of doubt and suspicion you carry in any ordinary Indian's mind. It is not now, not this year, but 72 years ago that we had to face a ruthless attempt to seize power, clothed and masked by denial after denial. If today even a straightforward claim by Pakistan is suspect in Indian eyes, it is due to the legacy of repeated prevarications followed finally by admission. Consider the following:

1. The raiders in Kashmir, their true character and antecedents, and what was conveyed to the world by a nascent country;
2. Operation Gibraltar, and the cold-blooded decision to clothe highly-trained military people as civilians, to lend credence to a story of native revolt against intolerable tyranny;
3. Operation Grand Slam, and an attack with armour and artillery on a principal town, the second capital of the state;
4. The encouragement of Mizos in rebellion, and their housing in camps within East Pakistan;
5. The bland refusal to acknowledge aggression in 1999, and the assertion that freedom-loving mujahedin had taken independent action without consulting the authorities, to be followed, at long last, with the outing of the NLI;
6. A continuous financial investment in the Hurriyet leadership, and in subsidies to the daily demonstrations organised through large investments of money, all of which are totally denied as having happened;
7. The statements by organisations committed to fomenting trouble in J&K, and their bland denial by the military authorities in Pakistan;

How much more do you want?

You maybe right in the past about previous PM's, but this PM is a very different beast. He is on top of what is happening, and he is the one that has been driving the policy. He might not know the tactical details of PAF's response, but he is well aware and is in the driving seat in terms of setting up policies.

Sir, do consider this strange situation: @Hellfire reports some internal conversations and is met with howls of disbelief; we are told, by you, that the present PM is different.

So should we be as sceptical towards @Hellfire as before?

If there is one side that was pushing for peace, and begging for talks, that was Pakistan and not India.

How does one deal with this on a larger time-frame? Where was Pakistan's response, when it was India pushing for peace and begging for talks? The only arrogant reply we got was that there could be no talks without discussing the future of Kashmir. As far as I can make out, this meant one thing, and only one, to Pakistani diplomats: the immediate withdrawal of Indian troops from Indian Kashmir and handing over the administration to Pakistan, with or without the dubious interval of a shambolic referendum guided by the Hurriyet and armed elements within the population imported from Pakistan. Should I remind you of the assassination of the present Mirwaiz's father, and the prompt conversion of the son to the Azadi camp? or of Abdul Ghani Lone, whose killing drove his three children into each of the three political factions prevalent in Kashmir today?

Forget about an obscure Indian writing all this on PDF; when a former general and head of ISI revealed the naked truth, all those things that do not come into consideration on the 26th or after, he lost his pension.

I mean, one only need to see how belligerent and warmongering the Indian media was. How can one forget Indian anchors putting on military camouflages and pretending to be Generals. The only war mongering that was coming was from the Indian side, while the Pakistani side was consistently pushing for peace talks and dialogue. Look at the response from Pakistan, especially Pakistani media. Throughout the incident, the consistent theme from every segment of the Pakistani society was to avoid war and engage in peace talks because we Pakistanis have seen war, and we have 80K Pakistanis buried under the ground as a testament to that.

Who is to blame for that? Do you know that each and every one of the journalists who were professional employees, and not owners or part owners, who in earlier years had argued for peace is today discredited, without a job, and unemployable, because they are seen as sycophants who backed a reconciliation with Pakistan even in the teeth of the Bombay massacre?

The last thing Pakistan wants is a war with India, because we have seen war, and we have seen what it does.

If only you had made that clear earlier than 2014, when there were people waiting anxiously for a hint in this direction.

 

[Mutakalim]

It's really simple logic. There was cloud cover over Balakot on the day of the strike and many days following it.

There was no cloud cover on 27th. It was a sunny day, we are not blind.