indian army chief says pakistan must be secular if they want to stay together with india

[padamchen]

I do not want to diminish the dignity of the forum, but please educate me: what is the qualitative difference between a 'big' shit and a 'little' shit? Don't they think the same, and don't they sound the same?

An interested audience wants to know.

Leave it. At best he's tedious.

@Shankranthi is back.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Sharpshooter12]

Food for thought : India has frequently seen (Majority) Hindus Lynched by Muslims too. Has Pakistan seen Muslims(Majority) Lynched by Hindus ?

Well Lynching is hardly a barometer you can judge a society's tolerance and secularism with.

I can't really post the pictures but do search for Lahore Church bombing and then lynching of 2 muslims by angry Christian mob, Pakistani Muslims while condemned the incident did not threaten the Christians. In fact most of the clergy, even some hawks came out and tried to diffuse the situation.

And Christians make about 1% of our population, unlike Muslims of India who make a sizable minority with some cities being dominated by them, hell you have (unjustifiably of course) a whole state that is majority Muslim. So naturally as the intolerance grows in your society you will see those reprisal attacks happening as well. That does not make you a more secular society, its just how your demographics are.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Or you can be a secular state like you are a democratic one ......on pape

India has taken its hindu phobia a bit too far.
You will find metros in singapore and malaysia decorated for diwali but not delhi metro. I am personally against such decorations but we are trying too hard to be secular.

Not hard enough. As long as we are sloppy, I am barred from objecting to burkhas and to the abuse of the loudspeaker in sounding the azaan.

RBI was a storm in a teacup. RBI resisted the governments attempt at interference and everything died down.

Yes, but Gurumurthy remains on the board. As daft and feckless as ever.

You will recall the remark of Jagdish Bhagwati (not my favourite economist; he gave covering fire to that thundering ***, Panagarhiya) on meeting Gurumurthy: "If that man is an economist, I am a Bharat Natyam dancer."

 

[Shankranthi]

Leave it. At best he's tedious.

@Shankranthi is back.

Cheers, Doc

I am sure its going to be a short stay

 

[randomradio]

That is precisely one of the factors that integrates religion and state.

But it's yet to happen. Weirdly hasn't happened in 5000 years.

You will, in that case, take no offence if I partially agree, and inform you that your rejoinders remind me of the latter portion of the word that you have used.

If you had a nodding acquaintance with the political philosophy of Fascism, you might not have dismissed it so readily.

Hindutva is quite literally a way of life. Different people have different opinions and Hinduism and Hindutva can change based on how one perceives the world around them. You may like some, may not like others. But this is entirely ones personal choice.

I bet you aren't Hindu. Padmachen is not either. So I understand both of you trying your best to understand the concept, but do not understand where you fail. All you are doing is trying to impose your own views on concepts you do not understand. I bet even with less than a nodding acquaintance with fascism, your simplified view would fall under it.

I presume that your worship of divinity is classified under some rubric other than religion. There is a limit on being

I feel your sentence there is incomplete.

Anyway, nope. Hinduism can be quite synonymous with atheism.

Let's see what the vedas has to say about creation:
But, after all, who knows, and who can say
whence it all came, and how creation happened?
The gods themselves are later than creation,
so who knows truly whence it has arisen?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Do you think that economic stability and higher living standards will significantly reduce India's susceptibility to fascism? I think economic instability is usually what fascist populists lean on.

I know I will get beaten up by our resident votary of trickle-down economics, but consider the following:

1. Yes, you are right; fascism depends on insecurity, economic as well as social insecurity.
2. This present regime has performed miserably on the economic growth front; they will continue to do so in their pursuit of the ultimate PR coup.
3. As they fail in their management of the economy, they will get more and more subscribers to their doomsday script.

It's a circular situation, a vicious cycle.

 

[RAMPAGE]

A very shrewd observation.

You may have noticed that @Nilgiri and I differ, but not substantially. Perhaps the most rounded picture lies in combining, without violence, what we have each stated.

I was struck by your remark. There is a great deal of meat in it. If there are to be any further exchanges, and you have opened up an interesting vein, I should like to know, as it will make me study Nilgiri's post carefully.

Actually, that is what I had in mind when I wrote my first post on the topic. I think, unlike Hinduism, not only has Islam had many Churches, it also has its own field of Islamic literary criticism which is quite rich. I mean, our own Dar Ul Uloom, Deoband is a Church in its own right.

 

[The Accountant]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1068417757107052544

https://twitter.com/x/status/1068361799999868928

https://twitter.com/x/status/1068430397732605952

https://twitter.com/x/status/1068385386181918720

@Indus Pakistan this is exactly what I was referring to on Nationality thread ... Our enemies want us to be secular as they know it is Islam that is bounding force for us and once it is out it will be easy to dis integrate us and then they can make us slave like Bangladesh and cann take revenue of 100s of years of muslim rulership ...

Raising question about Islamic background of Islam in the mind of general people is serving the purpose of the enemy ....

 

[Darwin]

Not hard enough. As long as we are sloppy, I am barred from objecting to burkhas and to the abuse of the loudspeaker in sounding the azaan.



Yes, but Gurumurthy remains on the board. As daft and feckless as ever.

You will recall the remark of Jagdish Bhagwati (not my favourite economist; he gave covering fire to that thundering ***, Panagarhiya) on meeting Gurumurthy: "If that man is an economist, I am a Bharat Natyam dancer."

We indians have a habit of over reacting over everything and undermining our institutions . Just imagine we had a president like trump interfering in everything from judges appointment, firing prosecuters ; we would have declared india a banana republic by now ,with half the awardees returning national awards.
Our institutions pull together and resist major abuse.
Let Bbc do the scaremongering. Its in their anti india manifesto.

 

[PradoTLC]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1068417757107052544

https://twitter.com/x/status/1068361799999868928

https://twitter.com/x/status/1068430397732605952

https://twitter.com/x/status/1068385386181918720

says the guy who can't wear hat straight ........ just LOL

Pakistan has done well to exposed India's illogical, hateful, and nefarious stance

 

[The Accountant]

Indian's are out of their mind after checke mate on border opening ...

 

[Joe Shearer]

But it's yet to happen. Weirdly hasn't happened in 5000 years.

Oh, really? When the positions of authority in religion are held according to a scriptural prescription? When the positions of military leadership and even, ideally, military followership are also held according to a scriptural prescription? When there are personal laws that are based on religious principles and foundations? When the right to worship, the right to administer places of worship, the right to train and deploy priests, are all under such prescription (this was known as establishmentarianism, and it gave rise to that famous word 'disestablishmentarianism'), when business access and collaboration are founded on such prescriptions, when statecraft is governed by quasi-religious guidelines, when every act of state is steeped with such religious precept?

You did mention weird.

Hindutva is quite literally a way of life. Different people have different opinions and Hinduism and Hindutva can change based on how one perceives the world around them. You may like some, may not like others. But this is entirely ones personal choice.

Hinduism is the way of life, with religion tightly integrated with every aspect of life. Hindutva is the corruption of that concept, with riders excluding categories from participation in civic life.

I bet you aren't Hindu. Padmachen is not either.

You are wrong in your premisses, hence wrong in your conclusions, but we have already seen that demonstrated.

So I understand both of you trying your best to understand the concept, but do not understand where you fail. All you are doing is trying to impose your own views on concepts you do not understand. I bet even with less than a nodding acquaintance with fascism, your simplified view would fall under it.

It is noticeable that your remarks are all vague and up in the air.

What is this concept that you detect its absence in our thinking and yet have not bothered to define yourself?
In what specifics do we fail?
How do you know about my acquaintance with fascism, when you yourself do not seem to have even a nodding acquaintance with it?

I feel your sentence there is incomplete.

Quite clearly your strength lies in discovering the absent.

Anyway, nope. Hinduism can be quite synonymous with atheism.

And, as usual, you are unable to say why.

Let's see what the vedas has to say about creation:
But, after all, who knows, and who can say
whence it all came, and how creation happened?
The gods themselves are later than creation,
so who knows truly whence it has arisen?

The relevance is astonishing. However, you forgot to cite the traffic rules in Peoria. A sad omission, considering what we have already established as your strength.

Actually, that is what I had in mind when I wrote my first post on the topic. I think, unlike Hinduism, not only has Islam had many Churches, it also has its own field of Islamic literary criticism which is quite rich. I mean, our own Dar Ul Uloom, Deoband is a Church in its own right.

Strictly speaking, a seminary dedicated to a study of one particular theological line, or approach. Not a Church. Following the path of fiqh would probably demarcate 'churches' more faithfully. But I do not want to wade in beyond my depth.

We indians have a habit of over reacting over everything and undermining our institutions . Just imagine we had a president like trump interfering in everything from judges appointment, firing prosecuters ; we would have declared india a banana republic by now ,with half the awardees returning national awards.
Our institutions pull together and resist major abuse.
Let Bbc do the scaremongering. Its in their anti india manifesto.

I sincerely hope that you are right.

Leave it. At best he's tedious.

You may have noticed that I generally try and pursue each argument in all seriousness, until the point comes of diminishing returns. That point has come.

Cheers, Doc

 

[RAMPAGE]

Oh, really? When the positions of authority in religion are held according to a scriptural prescription? When the positions of military leadership and even, ideally, military followership are also held according to a scriptural prescription? When there are personal laws that are based on religious principles and foundations? When the right to worship, the right to administer places of worship, the right to train and deploy priests, are all under such prescription (this was known as establishmentarianism, and it gave rise to that famous word 'disestablishmentarianism'), when business access and collaboration are founded on such prescriptions, when statecraft is governed by quasi-religious guidelines, when every act of state is steeped with such religious precept?

You did mention weird.



Hinduism is the way of life, with religion tightly integrated with every aspect of life. Hindutva is the corruption of that concept, with riders excluding categories from participation in civic life.



You are wrong in your premisses, hence wrong in your conclusions, but we have already seen that demonstrated.



It is noticeable that your remarks are all vague and up in the air.

What is this concept that you detect its absence in our thinking and yet have not bothered to define yourself?
In what specifics do we fail?
How do you know about my acquaintance with fascism, when you yourself do not seem to have even a nodding acquaintance with it?



Quite clearly your strength lies in discovering the absent.



And, as usual, you are unable to say why.



The relevance is astonishing. However, you forgot to cite the traffic rules in Peoria. A sad omission, considering what we have already established as your strength.



Strictly speaking, a seminary dedicated to a study of one particular theological line, or approach. Not a Church. Following the path of fiqh would probably demarcate 'churches' more faithfully. But I do not want to wade in beyond my depth.



I sincerely hope that you are right.

You have to consider the influence of Deoband in Pakistani religious politics. Without Deoband, Fiqh would have no leg to stand on in Pakistan. It is actually Deoband institutions and its cadre which lend the Shariat movements any credibility in Pakistan.

 

[randomradio]

Oh, really? When the positions of authority in religion are held according to a scriptural prescription? When the positions of military leadership and even, ideally, military followership are also held according to a scriptural prescription? When there are personal laws that are based on religious principles and foundations? When the right to worship, the right to administer places of worship, the right to train and deploy priests, are all under such prescription (this was known as establishmentarianism, and it gave rise to that famous word 'disestablishmentarianism'), when business access and collaboration are founded on such prescriptions, when statecraft is governed by quasi-religious guidelines, when every act of state is steeped with such religious precept?

You did mention weird.

Scriptural prescription that vehemently opposed the alignment of the ruling class and the priestly class. That's good enough to be relevant even today.

The texts are not doctrine anyway.

Hinduism is the way of life, with religion tightly integrated with every aspect of life. Hindutva is the corruption of that concept, with riders excluding categories from participation in civic life.

So rejecting caste differences and fighting for a Uniform Civil Code are bad? It is because of Hindutva that we are now fighting for both.

You are wrong in your premisses, hence wrong in your conclusions, but we have already seen that demonstrated.

Good to know.

It is noticeable that your remarks are all vague and up in the air.

What is this concept that you detect its absence in our thinking and yet have not bothered to define yourself?
In what specifics do we fail?
How do you know about my acquaintance with fascism, when you yourself do not seem to have even a nodding acquaintance with it?

You do realise I can throw all of this right back at you, right?

Quite clearly your strength lies in discovering the absent.

Thanks for noticing that I have identified what's absent in you.

And, as usual, you are unable to say why.

The relevance is astonishing. However, you forgot to cite the traffic rules in Peoria. A sad omission, considering what we have already established as your strength.

What's there to say? I consider myself atheist and Hindu at the same time. This is a good enough explanation as any in Hinduism.

 

[Tom M]

There is, but in a very uneducated way. Have you seen the intellectual quality of the Sanghi government? Do you expect anything from them but the crudest sadism and lynch-mob mentality? When their intellectual beacon is S. Gurumurthy, what do you expect from them?

Essentially, that is what these prize clowns are trying to do, integrate the religion and the state. It is frankly beyond their mental boundaries to plan for it; all they can do, and are in fact doing, is to corrupt one institution after another. The latest target is the central bank, the Reserve Bank of India.

Exactly sir. The entire premise of there existence alone is politics of hatred, nothing else. That way general public will be forced (mentally) to discuss temple/religion not development.