Indian Army Against Deal With Pakistan On Kashmir Glacier

[Bull]

So you're denying that the joint statement was revised thrice?
Thats funny coz your side usually claims that its us living in denial.

We are not denying or accepting it was amended,if indeed it was amended therice and on IA's request as you cliam,why didnt Mushi protest? why didnt he open his mouth,why didnt he write abt it in his book?Dont expect me to believe mushi who opens his mouth for each and everything kept his mouth shut in this case.

 

[Bull]

mate, get this straight--the IA CANNOT i repeat CANNOT make ANY decisions on its own.It is subservient to the government of the day.

The IA CANNOT make the govt back down or change anything if the govt has decided on something.It can ONLY present arguments and give its reasons, nothing more, nothing less.

Lier Lier, oye bewkoof its all the great indian cover up...

 

[Bull]

Sri we dont deny that Pakistan Army is very much our own and they had the right to run the country we dont mind.

Where is that written,is that written in your constitution,or u just pulled it off from your magical hat.!!!

PA has the right you poor souls had no choice but to watch PA walk in and throw away a democratic elected leadership.

 

[blain2]

nope, it hurts Pakistan much more to have a frontier in Siachen than it does to India. India spends moer tehre, as we have more people there, but our economy can take that easily. It is a bigger drain on Pakistan's resources wrt its economy.

Not true. In absolute term its actually cheaper and easier for Pakistan to maintain the existing positions. Pakistani troops are actually quite well prepared to carry on with the conflict for the unforseeable future. The issue is the need for the Pakistani government to show that some progress is being made in terms of peace with India. If Siachen is not resolved and Sir creek remains beyond a resolution then attitudes will harden again and the shooting across LOC will begin again. Pakistani troops have withered the worse of Siachen and PA would not leave the glacier unconditionally. In terms of military expansion in the glacier, it has actually been dotted all over by mirroring positions setup by both sides. Anything short of a major action would not change anything....so essentially its simply a point of when there will be a deal....sooner or later both sides will agree that no side can have it all. Indians are not in a position to dislodge Pakistani troops from their positions and the same goes for Pakistan....so you either sit there (Pakistanis have been there for the past 23 years and can sit on it for another 23 years as the economy is only getting better).

 

[blain2]

PA has the right you poor souls had no choice but to watch PA walk in and throw away a democratic elected leadership.

See this is the problem with most Indians who have an outside view of Pakistan without realizing the Pakistani psyche with regards to the Army.

The point you make is so infantile (sounds like a westerner crying about lack of democracy in the rest of the world). Desis should know better.

Yes Army rules Pakistan and any proponent of democracy would have the runs of the day over this issue, however for Pakistanis its simply a matter of who delivers at the end of the day. Musharraf has done more for Pakistan wearing the uniform of PA than either of the democratically elected PMs in the 90s.

Pakistanis could care less about the democracy in action for as long as the economy is doing well and people have the right to speak and be heard. Pakistani culture is currently more open than at any other time in the past 50 years. Also Pakistani military rule is not like what you would see in Countries like Burma. There is no military on the streets...the military actually this time around remained confined to cantonements since there is no martial law.

Pakistanis are not being monitored by some crackpot super-secret intelligence agencies for speaking their minds...people are talking about the problems, corruption of officials and asking for accountability OPENLY!! On the economic side, people are setting up new ventures and things are improving despite the fact that we have a president who happens to wear a uniform. So this is not a society where some entity (like a military government) has the reigns of the country and exercises complete control over it....Pakistanis are free as any Indian across the border...and despite all of Musharraf's ills, we give him credit for this.

There are very many other things that belie what a democracy advocate would think is amiss in Pakistan.....in reality Pakistan under the military is no different than a Pakistan under civilian democracy. Overthrowing a democractically elected government to most Pakistanis is not a huge sin...they sucked and got the boot and that is just the way Pakistani politics work. People are used to it and carry on.

Lastly, please do not patronize us by trying to make it sound like you feel sorry for the lack of democracy in Pakistan...democracy for Pakistanis is a small thing...something they would like eventually but is not a show stopper in any way or shape.

 

[Contrarian]

Not true. In absolute term its actually cheaper and easier for Pakistan to maintain the existing positions. Pakistani troops are actually quite well prepared to carry on with the conflict for the unforseeable future. The issue is the need for the Pakistani government to show that some progress is being made in terms of peace with India. If Siachen is not resolved and Sir creek remains beyond a resolution then attitudes will harden again and the shooting across LOC will begin again. Pakistani troops have withered the worse of Siachen and PA would not leave the glacier unconditionally. In terms of military expansion in the glacier, it has actually been dotted all over by mirroring positions setup by both sides. Anything short of a major action would not change anything....so essentially its simply a point of when there will be a deal....sooner or later both sides will agree that no side can have it all. Indians are not in a position to dislodge Pakistani troops from their positions and the same goes for Pakistan....so you either sit there (Pakistanis have been there for the past 23 years and can sit on it for another 23 years as the economy is only getting better).

Yeah, in absolute terms, it costs India more, but relative to the economy, it costs Pakistan wayy more.It hurts Pakistan way more. Now, both sides know it cant have it all, but the point is that the IA does not want to have it all. They did not have it in the first place, now they control the larger part and have the most strategoc location which they dont want to leave. Ofcourse getting the opertunity to have it all, they wont miss. But they are already gaining so much by being there.

Its the same thing 'jiski lathi uski bhains', lol. India only wins by remaining at siachen. It has a bigger area, the commanding heights, the precise strategic location to target the Pak-China trade route. Pakistan wants to remove India from there, which the PA knows it cannot do. Now, India wants Pakistan to demarcate the troop positions which are basically a tantamount to accepting the Indian position there, and validating it. The IA has also been there for an equally long time, and our economy too, though already so good is imporving at an exorbitant rate, second fastest in Asia!, so the IA is also not in a hurry to leave. Infact the statement from the Army that was posted in these forums that the IA is against any deal with Pakistan on Siachen , had one motive, to tell the govt that the IA can handle Siachen very well. They are not in a hurry to leave.

So, the crux is that India wants to keep its strategic edge in Siachen, whereas Pakistan wants it out. Thus, like mentioned in some other posts, India negotiates from a position of power. Lets see how the negotiations turn out.

 

[Contrarian]

See this is the problem with most Indians who have an outside view of Pakistan without realizing the Pakistani psyche with regards to the Army.

The point you make is so infantile (sounds like a westerner crying about lack of democracy in the rest of the world). Desis should know better.

Yes Army rules Pakistan and any proponent of democracy would have the runs of the day over this issue, however for Pakistanis its simply a matter of who delivers at the end of the day. Musharraf has done more for Pakistan wearing the uniform of PA than either of the democratically elected PMs in the 90s.

Pakistanis could care less about the democracy in action for as long as the economy is doing well and people have the right to speak and be heard. Pakistani culture is currently more open than at any other time in the past 50 years. Also Pakistani military rule is not like what you would see in Countries like Burma. There is no military on the streets...the military actually this time around remained confined to cantonements since there is no martial law.

Pakistanis are not being monitored by some crackpot super-secret intelligence agencies for speaking their minds...people are talking about the problems, corruption of officials and asking for accountability OPENLY!! On the economic side, people are setting up new ventures and things are improving despite the fact that we have a president who happens to wear a uniform. So this is not a society where some entity (like a military government) has the reigns of the country and exercises complete control over it....Pakistanis are free as any Indian across the border...and despite all of Musharraf's ills, we give him credit for this.

There are very many other things that belie what a democracy advocate would think is amiss in Pakistan.....in reality Pakistan under the military is no different than a Pakistan under civilian democracy. Overthrowing a democractically elected government to most Pakistanis is not a huge sin...they sucked and got the boot and that is just the way Pakistani politics work. People are used to it and carry on.

Lastly, please do not patronize us by trying to make it sound like you feel sorry for the lack of democracy in Pakistan...democracy for Pakistanis is a small thing...something they would like eventually but is not a show stopper in any way or shape.

Thats the basic difference mate, the 'end result' is delivered in the rest of the world by the govt chosen by the people too. In India, the end result is taken into account too USING democracy to achieve it. Say if we feel the one party in power failed to perform according to expectations, they are removed in the next elections. So all the parties are kept on their toes. The next one will try to rectify the mistakes of the previous govt. That is how democracy works.

Its dissapointing that you are so complacent about democracy. That you say it is not that important. If it is not a sin that the army would take control of the country, then it should be a sin, and the biggest one at that. If you are comparing your govt with Burma, then you are looking the wrong way. It is foolishness to look at some1 who is inferior in certain aspects to you and get complacent thinking you are so much better, thus there is no need to improve yourself. Even though there may not be military on the streets, your country is run by the military. The fact that you can speak against the govt is peanuts compared to what you should be entitled to. And btw, how about that Sindh TV that got banned for saying stuffa against the army??.

That you will let yourself be dictated by some one who used the army to control the nation, Your Nation, speaks volumes about your desire for democracy.

 

[mohammed007]

Are killings and attrocities being commited in china occupied kashmir as well...saw east turkestan movement its really bad...

wiki reports all muslims in kashmir want separate state but hindus and buddhists in leh and ladakh and jammu(which has a hindu majority) want to stay with india...

only solution to solve kashmir to send the muslims from indian oc. kasmir to pak administered kash and Hindus from pak adm kash to Iok

simple solution...

 

[brational]

Are killings and attrocities being commited in china occupied kashmir as well...saw east turkestan movement its really bad...

wiki reports all muslims in kashmir want separate state but hindus and buddhists in leh and ladakh and jammu(which has a hindu majority) want to stay with india...

only solution to solve kashmir to send the muslims from indian oc. kasmir to pak administered kash and Hindus from pak adm kash to Iok

simple solution...

Good Solution.. Pls speak to ur Govt.. and do it ASAP..

 

[RockyX]

opening 5 year old thread

Now open again after 5 years. The issue would be same.