Indian airspace breached 32 times since 2013

[MadDog]

You have some twisted logic...you want someone not to make fun of dead kids(which actually he was not as you read him out of context) by making fun of innocent people who died on other sides

Why don't you do one thing...bring it on...make fun of dead people...teach your enemy a lesson they should never forget



Not to troll here however just one question...what should be parameters to judge that insurgency has been defeated or not....US forces are supposedly way advanced than PA...so in short they had boots on the ground backed by advanced technology in AF...and we all know they failed miserably...no??

The parameters are clear, I hope these questions will clear any confusion.

1) Has the ability of terrorists to strike targets at will been hampered, eg: is there is a decrease in the number of terror incidents or not ?
Answer: In Afghanistan's case no, as attacks interms of frequency & intensity have increased tenfold, in Pakistan such incidents fell by 90%.

2) Has the govt writ on areas under Talib/militant control been established?

Answer:In Afghanistan's case, more than 50% area is under Talib influence, other than that IS is making inroads there too. ANA + allies are increasingly unable to secure urban centres, example can be kunduz's capture by Taliban near Tajkistan border , increasing insurgency in Badakshan province, these northern provinces were traditionally not Talib areas but now they are under their sphere of influence.
In Pakistan entire FATA is cleared, Army holds 3500km lines of communication, unlike in neighbouring Afghanistan where coalition members like Germany paid monthly goodwill payment to Taliban to not to attack them. Ambassadors from other countries were taken across North Waziristan , once a no go area, Zarb-e-Azb's effectiveness is acknowledged by Americans themselves & the world making Pak 1st country to comprehensively defeat a full fledged insurgency, international media is printing articles on this & studies are being conducted.

Who controls momentum on battlefield?

Answer: In Afghanistan, Taliban at will increase the intensity of conflict, just the way after belated disclosure of Mullah Omar's death, they launched audacious spring offensive, followed by summer offensive , now winter offensive (usually there is a lull in fighting during winter). Americans are now referring to Taliban as dialogue partners , this kind of acknowledgment comes when the adversary is gaining ground. In Pakistan, TTP has been decimated, there is no voice supporting talks with them, simply because they don't hold any ground & are not in the position to negotiate. Their senior commanders in desperation as a result of serious losses have jumped on to IS bandwagon in Afghanistan (to get IS's financial support) posing a challenge to Afghan Taliban and ANA/Ghani's regime !!

Hope this helps
Regards

 

[#hydra#]

Yea, bombing some armour bogged down in sand is indeed an achievement by the IAF standards, however your self praising history will never reveal to you amongst others, the mauling PAF gave to you at the Mukerian rail yards...so much that your commanders had to abandon their plans.

Yeas it is,its the sole purpose of any air force. Wiping out of enemy from air,land &sea and iaf did remarkable job in longewale. The whole mechanised force from Pakistan got toasted in longewale its really an achievement & we don't care about what loosers you think about on that.

 

[yolo2016]

Nonsense, when the topic at hand is air violations over India....and some member drags in the issue about US Drones....then i wonder who invites trolling, my post was still in relation to India/Pak scenario.
And the IAF had no part in the 1971 debacle, in fact IAF has never delivered except perhaps in Kargil, when it carried out some missions within it's own side of the border.....that too after much input by both the Americans and Israelis.

Most of the violations of airspace were in the Indian ocean where India also claims some extended area of no go like the Chinese do. And where we have challenged it too. If you think India allows Pakistan to violate its airspace you are nuts. Same goes the other way too. I can even imagine one or two outlier violations at best near the no fly zone( area between the two countries- both having promised not allow aircraft near X Miles of it). But nothing like you are trying to portray

East Pakistan Air Operations incorporate the interdiction, air defense, ground support, and logistics missions flown by the Indian Air Force and the Bangladesh Air Force in support of the advancing Mukti Bahini (called Operation Cactus Lilly) in the eastern theater of the Indo-Pakistani conflict of 1971. Although the first of the engagements between the opposing airpowers occurred before the formal declaration of hostilities, the events described below include only those conducted after the declaration of war. The Indian Air force also helped the Mukti Bahini organize a formation of light aircraft (called Kilo flight) which were manned and serviced by Bengali pilots and technicians who had defected from the Pakistani Air Force. This unit had launched attacks on targets in Bangladesh on 3 December 1971, prior to the start of formal combat between India and Pakistan.

 

[Windjammer]

Yeas it is,its the sole purpose of any air force. Wiping out of enemy from air,land &sea and iaf did remarkable job in longewale. The whole mechanised force from Pakistan got toasted in longewale its really an achievement & we don't care about what loosers you think about on that.

As i said hitting defenceless armour or even civilian targets was big by achievement by Indian standards, however, PAF does best what it's mainly trained for, frying up the Indians in air .....and even when PAF is no where around, the mere fear of it causes the Chicken Bharti pilots to nose dive.....mission accomplished.

Aeronaut: Cheapest Kill

 

[surya kiran]

As i said hitting defenceless armour or even civilian targets was big by achievement by Indian standards, however, PAF does best what it's mainly trained for, frying up the Indians in air .....and even when PAF is no where around, the mere fear of it causes the Chicken Bharti pilots to nose dive.....mission accomplished.

Aeronaut: Cheapest Kill

Saying chalees saal pehle mera underwear bada tha does not make any difference when today you don't have one.

 

[#hydra#]

As i said hitting defenceless armour or even civilian targets was big by achievement by Indian standards, however, PAF does best what it's mainly trained for, frying up the Indians in air .....and even when PAF is no where around, the mere fear of it causes the Chicken Bharti pilots to nose dive.....mission accomplished.

Aeronaut: Cheapest Kill

That's what I said earlier, we fought real army men only in 1962,Chinese army. Rest in all so called war face highly impotent green under wearers, who doesn't know the basics of fighting a war. You guys sent tank with out any defence means your armies are such bunch of an unparrel morons,asper you the tank battalion you sent to conquer India was defencless, ha ha ha what u guys expected in war,garlend?

 

[deckingraj]

You used to be a reasonable member. But now you are a perfect example of hypocrisy. What happened? Too much love for a country like India which makes you a hypocrite and a liar?

Anyways he was making fun of dead kids. You missed it obviously being a hypocrite from India. And nope I don't make fun of dead people. Not until a rat from India forgets his auqat and needs to be shown his place. So don't worry. I won't make fun of any dead.

its funny you are accusing me of hypocrisy when you picked on a word from the other poster but simply failed to acknowledge why he used that word and for what....b/w what is the hypocrisy in my post?? Is too much love for your country taking a toll on your intelligence?? I just said you read him out of context....

and why should i be afraid if you chose to disrespect dead or not...if your conscious allows go for it...

 

[deckingraj]

The parameters are clear, I hope these questions will clear any confusion.

I appreciate your effort on at-least giving a ground to debate....so far all i have been hearing is fanboys making all kind of claims...Anyways let me share my thoughts...

First of all believe me I really want PA to beat these pigs...loosing your loved one's because some rat thinks he wants 72 virgins is really heart wrenching...

1) Has the ability of terrorists to strike targets at will been hampered, eg: is there is a decrease in the number of terror incidents or not ?
Answer: In Afghanistan's case no, as attacks interms of frequency & intensity have increased tenfold, in Pakistan such incidents fell by 90%.

The reason i brought AF in the equation was not to compare stats as such...I brought AF because technology as well as boots are present there as well...I have no doubt in my mind that AF is disaster as far as US Army is concerned....Anyways i usually use this example....After 26/11 there have hardly been any incident in India...if anyone says to me that India must have taken great steps and seems to have defeated terrorism then i honestly will laugh at him/her...
Anyways this is the usual way of their operation....whenever there is heat they will sit tight......and then back to their usual activities once heat is off....Don't you think the real parameter should be to see how the area behave once this operation is over??

2) Has the govt writ on areas under Talib/militant control been established?

Answer:In Afghanistan's case, more than 50% area is under Talib influence, other than that IS is making inroads there too. ANA + allies are increasingly unable to secure urban centres, example can be kunduz's capture by Taliban near Tajkistan border , increasing insurgency in Badakshan province, these northern provinces were traditionally not Talib areas but now they are under their sphere of influence.
In Pakistan entire FATA is cleared, Army holds 3500km lines of communication, unlike in neighbouring Afghanistan where coalition members like Germany paid monthly goodwill payment to Taliban to not to attack them. Ambassadors from other countries were taken across North Waziristan , once a no go area, Zarb-e-Azb's effectiveness is acknowledged by Americans themselves & the world making Pak 1st country to comprehensively defeat a full fledged insurgency, international media is printing articles on this & studies are being conducted.

This is a decent parameter however just keep in mind that comparing AF and Pakistan is comparing apples and oranges...American forces have cleared areas in AF many times however thereafter administrative writ needs to be maintained.....and AF is no where capable of delivering that...

Who controls momentum on battlefield?

Answer: In Afghanistan, Taliban at will increase the intensity of conflict, just the way after belated disclosure of Mullah Omar's death, they launched audacious spring offensive, followed by summer offensive , now winter offensive (usually there is a lull in fighting during winter). Americans are now referring to Taliban as dialogue partners , this kind of acknowledgment comes when the adversary is gaining ground. In Pakistan, TTP has been decimated, there is no voice supporting talks with them, simply because they don't hold any ground & are not in the position to negotiate. Their senior commanders in desperation as a result of serious losses have jumped on to IS bandwagon in Afghanistan (to get IS's financial support) posing a challenge to Afghan Taliban and ANA/Ghani's regime !!
Hope this helps
Regards

Ummm i am not sure about this parameter....In a full fledged onslaught by professional forces will always gain the momentum...this is how militants approach the war...they are guerrillas and will always run away from hot zones...however if you can't control the region after clearing it they will come back....

In short the key is to look at areas that PA has cleared and moved on...If those areas are keeping calm then that would be great news....

 

[Post Colonnial]

Impossible....since even a Pigeon can't enter India without getting captured and humiliated.

Abbottabad

 

[surya kiran]

Abbottabad

He meant, only India cannot enter Pakistani airspace. The Arabs and US can do it and kill whenever they feel like.

 

[Areesh]

its funny you are accusing me of hypocrisy when you picked on a word from the other poster but simply failed to acknowledge why he used that word and for what....b/w what is the hypocrisy in my post?? Is too much love for your country taking a toll on your intelligence?? I just said you read him out of context....

and why should i be afraid if you chose to disrespect dead or not...if your conscious allows go for it...

The hypocrisy in your post is that you missed the derogatory language in that post about our kids. And the hypocrisy is that you talking about insulting dead while covering your compatriot. Love for India may be. And don't worry, nobody from my side is insulting your dead. Not now at least. That idiot from India learned his lesson well.

 

[deckingraj]

The hypocrisy in your post is that you missed the derogatory language in that post about our kids. And the hypocrisy is that you talking about insulting dead while covering your compatriot. Love for India may be. And don't worry, nobody from my side is insulting your dead. Not now at least. That idiot from India learned his lesson well.

Actually this is plain wrong.....and here is the difference...you called me liar at the very first go whereas i don't believe in personal insults....atleast don't initiate them....the word that actually offended you was used by one of your brethren against dead in Mumbai...

Anyways here is an advice...you have every right to garbage it even before you read....you are a senior member...try and use a better way of showing your anger than writing posts that are derogatory and below dignity...writing such posts for whatever motive will not make you a better person, no?? Trolls are always going to stay in PDF...and there are well dignified ways of handling them....there have been lot of garbage written in this thread but i picked only you because i have debated with you many times....peace!!

 

[xyxmt]

how many of those violations by pigeons, crows and bulbul

 

[surya kiran]

how many of those violations by pigeons, crows and bulbul

Much less than the violation by Predators and Hawks in Pakistani airspace.

 

[MadDog]

I appreciate your effort on at-least giving a ground to debate....so far all i have been hearing is fanboys making all kind of claims...Anyways let me share my thoughts...

First of all believe me I really want PA to beat these pigs...loosing your loved one's because some rat thinks he wants 72 virgins is really heart wrenching...


The reason i brought AF in the equation was not to compare stats as such...I brought AF because technology as well as boots are present there as well...I have no doubt in my mind that AF is disaster as far as US Army is concerned....Anyways i usually use this example....After 26/11 there have hardly been any incident in India...if anyone says to me that India must have taken great steps and seems to have defeated terrorism then i honestly will laugh at him/her...
Anyways this is the usual way of their operation....whenever there is heat they will sit tight......and then back to their usual activities once heat is off....Don't you think the real parameter should be to see how the area behave once this operation is over??


This is a decent parameter however just keep in mind that comparing AF and Pakistan is comparing apples and oranges...American forces have cleared areas in AF many times however thereafter administrative writ needs to be maintained.....and AF is no where capable of delivering that...



Ummm i am not sure about this parameter....In a full fledged onslaught by professional forces will always gain the momentum...this is how militants approach the war...they are guerrillas and will always run away from hot zones...however if you can't control the region after clearing it they will come back....

In short the key is to look at areas that PA has cleared and moved on...If those areas are keeping calm then that would be great news....

Thanks mate for appreciating my effort

I believe 26/11 is an individual incident by LET, which can't be compared to what TTP used to be before operation & the audacious attacks it did. TTP's cadres were battle hardened, while those of LET were not close to them such as kasab, TTP had thousands of militants as it was an umbrella group with many groups under it from Af-Pak region. LET was never in a position to control or administer any area, while TTP was controlling large swathes of areas in tribal belt along the porous afghan border, if another 26/11 didn't happen, it might be due higher vigilance by intelligence agencies, collaboration with other intel agencies , however it wasn't linked to counter insurgency ops, as LET was never strong enough to control any territory.
Pak hampered their ability to mount attacks by denying them areas to operate, I did not say Pakistan has defeated terrorism, Pak has defeated TTP , the main insurgent group challenging the writ of state. Still IBO's (Intel based Ops) are conducted in urban centers where their sleeper cells have been arrested, under NAP(National Action Plan).
Secondly, when I say Talibs control momentum in Afghanistan, I meant they can at will take over huge urban centers (away from their heartland in south+east AF) such as Kunduz close to Tajik border at will, they have taken over bases where ANA troops have deserted & switched sides, they are active in Badakshan (province close to Chinese/Tajik border) , which was never under their influence previously. Aside from that they have ability to launch audacious attacks almost on a daily basis within the capital Kabul. Moreover, Ghani's willingness to talk to them, US state dept referring to them as "dialogue partners" , & refusal to call them a terrorist group while referring IS as a terrorist group in the same breath, despite all the attacks, all indicates they control momentum of battlefield as most of the western troops or the "professional forces" you referred to have already left Afghanistan.
For Pakistan, the reduction in number of attacks is almost by 90%, if u look at map almost entire NWA is cleared except Shawal valley where many TTP goons escaped, where operation is already underway in final stages.
Again I must say Pak has decimated TTP not only for itself but for the whole region. Their senior commanders like Shahidullah Shahid & others have joined IS , to attract funds from ME as TTP lost all ground in Pak & is a small scale group now with its name nowhere to be found in news these days.
If you see the same problem was faced by middle eastern countries, Libya, Syria, Iraq , Algeria , Nigeria , Coalition forces in Afghanistan all failed to clear the areas from insurgents & hold them , while Pak did it along with rehabilitating displaced people such as South Waziristan & Swat. Tourism is in full swing in swat these days (cleared by PA in 2009). The results can be observed through improvement in security situation + economy.
I believe the rising threat is IS which is fighting Afghan Talib groups, ANA & negotiations between Talibs & Ghani regime will help in decapitating this threat .