Indian Air Force to Have Women Fighter Pilots Soon, says Air Chief Arup Raha

[kbd-raaf]

This is silly beyond measure.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Training problems in having women fighter pilots: Parrikar | Zee News

New Delhi: Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar on Friday said there "can be operational and training problems" in inducting women fighter pilots in the Indian Air Force (IAF) even though he said he agreed to the move "in principle".

The comment comes after the IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, announced on Thursday that women will soon be inducted as fighter pilots.

"In principle we support this. Yes, there can be operational and training problems, but except for that, I see no reason why women should not participate," Parrikar said on the sidelines of the Territorial Army Day Parade.

He said work is on to formulate a policy in this regard.

"Why can't women be a part of it? The procedure to come out with a policy for this is going on. Many difficulties arrive and keeping that in mind we will announce a policy soon," he said.

The minister stressed that the government is against any gender discrimination.

However, he added: "If we take decisions without thinking then there can be serious implications... In principle, we are for inclusion of both the sexes. No gender discrimination should be there. Except when there are operational and training problems," he said.

According to sources, Parrikar will meet the three service chiefs - Air Chief Marshal Raha, army chief General Dalbir Singh and navy chief Admiral R.K. Dhowan - next week to discuss the issue.

IANS

Seems like the CAS was a little over-eager to make this announcement an "in-principle" green light is pretty meaningless especially if all aspects haven't been properly looked at.

 

[Hindustani78]

Seems like the CAS was a little over-eager to make this announcement an "in-principle" green light is pretty meaningless especially if all aspects haven't been properly looked at.

There are around 1,500 women in the Air Force, including 94 pilots and 14 navigators.

"We have women pilots flying transport aircraft and helicopters, we are now planning to induct them into the fighter stream to meet the aspirations of young women of India," said the air chief on the 83rd Air Force Day.

 

[Abingdonboy]

There are around 1,500 women in the Air Force, including 94 pilots and 14 navigators.

"We have women pilots flying transport aircraft and helicopters, we are now planning to induct them into the fighter stream to meet the aspirations of young women of India," said the air chief on the 83rd Air Force Day.

I'm aware of this sir and this is great. But if operational and training considerations (i.e. the practicalities of implementing this new policy) haven't actually been thought out for the fighter stream then the CAS's words were basically irrelevant. Potentially he is setting himself and his force up for a lot of scrutiny on this issue if this new policy doesn't move forward at the pace some would like.

This is silly beyond measure.

What do you mean bro?

 

[kbd-raaf]

What do you mean bro?

The Air Force will be weakened by this. There's no two ways around the biological, physiological, etc deficiencies that women have.

 

[Abingdonboy]

The Air Force will be weakened by this. There's no two ways around the biological, physiological, etc deficiencies that women have.

In the case of the Infantry, special forces and any other combat arm I would agree with you 100%.

But fighter jets these days are highly advanced and highly intuitive to fly and are more about systems management than anything else which a woman would be just as good at as any man. As such the demands of flying are not enough to preclude female based purely on physical ability (IMO). The USAF has proven that there is little issue in having women in the fighter stream.

The ONLY issue I have is what the DM has outlined- training and operational issues associated with this decision. It costs a hell of a lot more to train an IAF fighter pilot than a transport/helo pilot- a fighter pilot would cost the treasury about $1 million- $1.5 million to go from basic to OCU and this cost is only justifiable if the pilot spends their career (or the vast majority of their career) in the fighter stream. A woman coming in and then having to be removed from flight status once, twice, thrice etc for a year (or more) whilst she is pregnant (plus a period of time to recover and regain the physical ability to fly high tempo operations) is simply not acceptable. There will even be some women who never regain their pre-pregnancy condition.

The Indian defence budget is but a fraction of the US's and at this stage is not in a position to absorb such wastage and it doesn't seem like any of this has actually been taken into consideration as of yet. Only a handful of nations in the world have females in their fighter streams and I'm not convinced India is in a position to join this club based purely on resources.

I do fear that now the CAS has announced this the media is going to press the issue and we could see a decision based on political considerations and not based on merit and empirical data.

 

[kbd-raaf]

But fighter jets these days are highly advanced and highly intuitive to fly and are more about systems management than anything else which a woman would be just as good at as any man. As such the demands of flying are not enough to preclude female based purely on physical ability (IMO). The USAF has proven that there is little issue in having women in the fighter stream.

That's a common myth. Women are inferior at everything from target shooting, hand eye coordination, temporal processing and reaction time. Significantly worse. An example of their lack of dexterity is obvious when an untrained male off the street, will have greater grip strength and agility than 95% of highly trained female athletes.

A male pilot can do all their flying tasks better than the female one and will not have to spend one week of every month going through hormonal strife, etc.

The US can afford to throw money away on politically correct idiocy. Can India?

Refs:
http://www.people.vcu.edu/~mamcdani/Publications/Thorley & McDaniel(2013, SIOP). sex differences in psychomotor.pdf

http://www.journalofvision.org/lookup/doi/10.1167/6.6.94

All of these characteristics are highly critical for a pilot. Military and civilian.

People like to think that our ancestors were idiots. That is something, every generation thinks, one needs to keep in mind that humans have not become any more intelligent. Our ability to reason has stayed the same. The only thing that has changed is the growth of national and personal wealth which allows countries to expend resources in satisfying the weak quivering underbelly that is the modern politically correct brigade.

 

[Abingdonboy]

The US can afford to throw money away on politically correct idiocy. Can India?

Well this is the crux of the issue and, to me, the answer is a definitive NO. The US's situation is getting out of control and WILL (actually, already is) detrimentally affect its combat capability across the board. There is talk of letting females in the Special Operations community in the US now which seems like an almost suicidal notion. Not a single female to date has passed though the USMC's officer school (as the bar has not been lowered) despite many trying now and that school is not even meant to be particularly demanding.

As long as the IAF keeps the same standards (down to the most trivial detail) for both males and females then that aspect is covered. That said, I am more skeptical of the operational considerations (or lack thereof) that have gone into making such a decision. India simply isn't in a position to expend vast sums (and we are talking vast) on pilots who will not be able to commit to the 20 year fighter pilot career path (and it would be wrong and, likely, legally untenable to ask a woman to do so) so as to justify such extraordinary expenditure on them.


Once the IAF's fighter stream is opened up to females the IN will face pressure for their (carrier-borne) aviation wing to follow suit and this is where things will get particularly troublesome as the IN's warships are not (presently) designed to house both men and women and especially not female officers (inherently pilots are going to be officers). Retro-fitting this capacity is going to be enormously time consuming and cost-prohibitive and that too for such a limited number of personnel.


In 20 years time, maybe even 10, revisit this decision but right now, when there isn't the funds to equip soldiers with even basic equipment, isn't the time to start PR/feel-good exercises.And this applies more so to the IN wherein they can design their warships to house both men and women from day one.


Let's be honest though, when the (sensationalist) media discuss this issue are they actually going to examine this case on the merits it deserves? Are they going to analyse, in trivial detail, pros and cons of such a move? Of course not. The narrative will be framed in such a way that anyone even remotely questioning the move to allow females into the fighter stream are bigoted sexists.


Having said that, I do not doubt there are some women capable enough of being very able pilots (both military and civilian), will their numbers be, proportionally, high amongst their gender as compared to males? No. But this is neither here nor there as far as I am concerned.


One further point I would add does not relate to either physical ability or training considerations but something highly intangible- unit cohesion. From what I have been able to gather (from first hand accounts of such experience) mixed military units ALWAYS have cohesion issues relating to fraternisation and all such inherent tensions that go along with such conditions. I'm not sure about the USAF's experience with their fighter stream but the US Army, US Navy and Marine Corps have all had great difficulties in this context. Women have had to be sent home mid tour (either in Iraq/Afghanistan or from a ship deployment) for being pregnant and this has direct effects on morale, unit cohesion and operational capability.




The fact of the matter is that a 100% male military (when it comes to combat arms, no doubt females can perform exceptionally in all other fields) is going to be MANY times (hard to quantify but a conservative estimate would be 5-6 times more) capable than a mixed military. This is simply a result of millions of years of evolution and hundreds of thousands of years of our anthropology. Men were (until VERY recently in historical terms) hunter gatherers and warriors and this lives with us today.

 

[kurup]

Finally a workable strategy as compared to mostly Shemale pilots of IAF proper female pilots can surely perform better and I feel for indian navy as well with its highest accidents record in word I guess shemales there can also be replaced by females .

And may be in some future war these female pilots can hold ground little longer compared to 65 where those shemales were clueless on how to counter PAF's onslaught.

 

[Hindustani78]

Govt approves induction of women fighter pilots in Air Force | Zee News

New Delhi: Women in combat roles is all set to become a reality with the Ministry of Defence on Saturday giving its nod to induction of women into the combat stream of the Indian Air Force.

The decision means women would soon be flying fighter jets of the Air Force.

As per a Defence Ministry statement, the first women pilots in the fighter stream of IAF will be selected from the current batch at the Air Force Academy.

Earlier this week, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had directed the three Service Chiefs to come out with a detailed report encapsulating the ways in which role of women can be increased in armed forces besides the challenges and the infrastructural changes needed in this regard.

Parrikar, who has been batting for enhanced role of women even in combat positions, had also met the three Service Chiefs recently to discuss the issue.

Just days ago, Indian Air Force Chief Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha had announced that his force had moved a proposal for recruiting women as fighter pilots.

Shortly after, Navy Chief Admiral RK Dhowan had also said that the Navy is looking at the possibility of recruiting women as pilots for its surveillance aircraft. However, he had ruled out combat role for women in the force for the time being due to government rules.

Till recently, the three Services had been cold to the idea of having women in combat roles and cited a number of reasons ranging from deployment issues to lodging and physical parameters.

 

[Hindustani78]

Ministry of Defence
24-October, 2015 16:29 IST
MoD Approves Induction of Women as Fighter Pilots

The Ministry of Defence has approved the induction of women into the Fighter (Combat) stream of the IAF. This progressive step is in keeping with the aspirations of Indian women and is in line with contemporary trends in Armed Forces of developed nations. Since their induction into the transport and Helicopter streams of the IAF, their performance has been praiseworthy and on a par with their male counterparts. Inducting women into the fighter stream would provide them with an equal opportunity to prove their mettle in combat roles as well.

The first women pilots would be selected from the batch which is presently undergoing flying training at Air Force Academy. After successful completion of ab-initio training, they would be commissioned in the fighter stream in June 2016.

Thereafter, they would undergo advanced training for one year and would enter a fighter cockpit by June 2017.

Presently, the Indian Army is inducting women into the Signals, Engineers, Army Aviation (Air Traffic Control), Army Air Defence, Electronics & Mechanical Engineers, Army Service Corps, Army Ordinance Corps, Intelligence Corps, Army Education Corps and Judge Advocate Generals Branches/Cadres. The Indian Navy is inducting women in the Judge Advocate Generals, Logistics, Observer, Air Traffic Controller, Naval Constructor and Education branches/cadres. The IAF is presently inducting women in the Transport and Helicopter stream of the flying branch, Navigation, Aeronautical Engineering, Administration, Logistics, Accounts, Education and Meteorology branches. With this decision to open up induction of women in the fighter stream, women have become eligible for induction in all branches and streams of the IAF.

The Ministry of Defence has also taken up a comprehensive review pertaining to induction of women in Armed Forces, both in short service commission and permanent commission (SSC & PC) and once finalised more and more branches would be opened up for induction of women to give them the space which they deserve in the Armed Forces of the country.

 

[Gazprom]

Women in frontlines is not a good idea. Though Women in logistics and supply lines do better than men.

 

[Hindustani78]

Flight Lieutenant Alka Shukla, one of the two trained women pilots in combat helicopter operation





Lt Kiran Shekhawat is the first woman Naval officer to die in an air crash.

 

[#hydra#]

I hope they do better job then there male colleagues (Avoid Crashing)

No,not at all the case with Indian women. I don't know any thing about other countries. I a working in a psu & I know that. As per govt policy my compony recruited lot of women employees & most of them are siting idle in office AC rooms & enjoying the heavy salaries.

 

[Koovie]

As long as they have to meet the same standards (And not some dumbed down BS like in the Army) I totally welcome this move!

Your prospects cannot be narrowed just because you werent born with a penis.