Indian Air Force faces risk as PAK, China modernise airforce: report

[vsdave2302]

We will not spare you.

Like you have not sparred us in past?

 

[MilSpec]

On topic Vis-a-vis china and pakistan, India's dwindling squadron strength and MMRCA saga along with LCA delays is a very big concern. With pakistan sourcing F16's from gulf countries, possibility of additional chinese platform influx and PLAAF's ever increasing J10's , J11' variant's , IAF will be under intense pressure faster than it can imagine.

In the interim, DARE III upgrades for Mig 27 with re engine program with AL31 engines might revive 150 airframes suffering a slow death due to R29 faults. @sancho

 

[Indian Patriot]

Not true, What was envisaged in 2001 was MRCA with front runners Mirage 2000 and Mig29's with no competative evaluation but a direct purchase. The RFI changed the deal into a MMRCA in 2006, and RFP's arriving in 2007, and shortlists happening in 2011/2012. .

The cost of the deal as estimated in 2004 would be greater in 2015 because of inflation. The French will not let go off their profit. Why do you think negotiations are going on? Because of increased costs. The deal started as being worth 7 billion dollars, reached 10 billion dollars and is now estimated to be close to 20 billion dollars. The more you delay the more the price hikes. And WHY is there a delay? Mirage 2000 could not take part in the bid because France shut down the production line of Mirage 2000 aircraft. For French Mirage series is now obsolete and they are focusing on Rafael.

LCA is thoroughly a 4th gen aircraft, please get your facts correct. LCA will give IAF th ability to talor tranches of aircrafts to cater to it's specific requirement without having to pay through their noses as it has to for any foreign platform.

LCA is no 4th generation aircraft. Please get your facts right on what constitutes a 4th gen aircraft. LCA is not in the same league as Grippen, Rafale, Typhoon - all contenders in the MMRCA deal.

The Mig-21s are still flying in IAF long after IAF top officials had demanded their retirement. The LCA is supposed to replace the Mig-21 aircraft. The fact that Mig-21s are still flying with IAF means the LCA is not ready yet and God knows when it will be ready.

Sorry to be blunt but, your assessment of LCA as a gen 3 a/c is a ludicrous comment and reflect your lack of understanding of combat air crafts and their efficacy.

Sorry to be blunt but your keyboard patriotism has blinded you to obvious facts. A plane that has not even been inducted in the air force cannot be compared to planes already serving in the airforce.

Just why do you think LCA is a 4th gen aircraft?

Why would you retire an airframe which has more than half of it's airframe life intact and is the most potent WVR system in your arsenal, and has an active upgrade program?

Airframe life is not the objective of an air force, the roles and mission parameters define what aircraft are needed. In this age of BVR you are talking about WVR capabilities. Instead of spending money on upgrades it is wiser to spend money on something that is build keeping in mind the concepts of modern 21st century air war, not some relic of 1970s era air fight.

Most mig 21's are already decommisioned, Mig 23's were decommisioned and mothballed six years ago, There are Some Mig 27 units still in use. As far as your MMRCA aircrafts, for the price of 10 of them you can keep the the entire 120-150 mig 27 airframes in air for another 10 years. that is an incredible trade off.

The Mig-21s still constitute among the largest branch in IAF fighter fleet. Overall the Mig series is the largest brand of aircraft in IAF.

For the price of 150 Mig-27 you can buy 700 Mig-19, so why not go for that as well if numbers mean everything for you? In late 80s when IAF inducted the Mirage 2000 it was opposed by some because the cost of a single Mirage was almost equal to the cost of an entire Mig-21 squadron. By the grace of God the deal went through.

How many Migs were lost in Kargil war and how many Mirage 2000 were lost? What good is it having 1000 old designed aircraft that is vulnerable to enemy ground fire? In modern combat advanced technology and quality beats numbers. Refer to Gulf War 1 if you still have doubts. 1.2 million Iraqi army, 12,000 tanks could not save Iraq from America.

you still realise that less than half of Jag airframe life time has been utilised, apart from that , it is optimised as a low level strike fighters and has a better service rate than that of mirage 2000's.

You do realise that the only reason IAF is still flying and uprading old Jaguars is because they do not have funds to buy modern advanced fighters, right? Ask any air force officer and he will laugh when you suggest Jaguar is better than Mirage.

There would have been no need to purchase Mirage if Jaguar was that damn good.

Wonder why doesn't USAF replace all its fighters by just F22 Raptors then.... Right tool for the right job, MKI and MMRCA's are very expensive aircrafts, LCA's Jaguars, Mig 29's and Mirage 2000's at thier respective time of indctions were best bang for the buck options. they are still relevant in the mix. Peace time CAP missions, CAS and Strike packages, needs cost effective platforms. jaguars, Mig29's, M2K's and LCA will provide the same variety which will be relevant for the next two decades.

You need to improve your GK. The plan was to induct 300-400 F-22 air superiority fighters and 2000+, that is two THOUSAND, F-35 strike aircraft. USA is phasing out its older aircraft. They cannot do so overnight because of cost factors and building that many aircraft takes time.

Respective time of induction is irrelevant. An aircraft that has no modern ECM, radar+missile warning system, self-defense mechanism will always be vulnerable to ground fire. The Mirage 2000 was sent to Kargil because all Migs were vulnerable to Stinger missiles.

 

[Mughal-Prince]

Good .We need reports like this to increase our budget.

And that's the actual primary reason to publish this kind of report. Public opinion and others issues or hurdles to tackle.

 

[Pulsar]

Wooow seems good

Huh? And how is the PAF being modernized? With what? Any new inductions that would put the fear of God in the IAF?

Or am I missing something here?

 

[thesolar65]

then what are you waiting for???

For arrival of theirs spare parts!!

 

[acid rain]

Test flying repeated unsuccessful test flights.You must be really a fool after 30 years of test flights to be proud of a very old platform with a forced induction, and patched pieces from all over the place.

Quadruplex digital fly-by-wire Flight Control System, new generation glass cockpit comprising Multi Function Displays (MFD), Head Up Display (HUD) and Stand by Instrumentation System, composite airframe and unstable delta design for e.g. isn't 30 year old systems. .but an all metal frame and none of the above like your junk JF17 is...

 

[Max Pain]

Quadruplex digital fly-by-wire Flight Control System, new generation glass cockpit comprising Multi Function Displays (MFD), Head Up Display (HUD) and Stand by Instrumentation System, composite airframe and unstable delta design for e.g. isn't 30 year old systems. .but an all metal frame and none of the above like your junk JF17 is...

that junk has been flying for almost a decade in PAF colors, better check your choice of words,

On topic Vis-a-vis china and pakistan, India's dwindling squadron strength and MMRCA saga along with LCA delays is a very big concern. With pakistan sourcing F16's from gulf countries, possibility of additional chinese platform influx and PLAAF's ever increasing J10's , J11' variant's , IAF will be under intense pressure faster than it can imagine.

In the interim, DARE III upgrades for Mig 27 with re engine program with AL31 engines might revive 150 airframes suffering a slow death due to R29 faults. @sancho

oh come on, it shouldnt be a big concern,
most of our airframes are even older than yours, and i dont think we'll ever see J-10 or J-11 in PAF's colors.
Jordan might be the only country that'll provide Pakistan with any of the surplus F-16's but seemingly they need em themselves so out procurement shouldnt really be that huge of a concern for ya'all

 

[sancho]

On topic Vis-a-vis china and pakistan, India's dwindling squadron strength and MMRCA saga along with LCA delays is a very big concern. With pakistan sourcing F16's from gulf countries, possibility of additional chinese platform influx and PLAAF's ever increasing J10's , J11' variant's , IAF will be under intense pressure faster than it can imagine.

In the interim, DARE III upgrades for Mig 27 with re engine program with AL31 engines might revive 150 airframes suffering a slow death due to R29 faults.

PAF's fighter fleet is nothing that should concern IAF too much, neither on technical terms, nor on numbers. PAF however made very smart moves by adding AWACS, tankers and stand off missiles capabilities, which increases their situational awareness by far compared to the advantage IAF's fighters had with their own radar against PAF fighters and makes them able to strike targets on our side without entering our airspace like in the past. These are crucial tactical advantages they added in defensive and offensive situations.
LCA's delays are of course not good, but since it's only aimed at the low end of IAF, with very limited operational importance, it's not that much of concern. The delays of DRDO AWACS on the other side have effected IAF far more, since we waited to long for the success of DRDO, which delayed the procurement of additional A50 Phalcons and puts IAF in disadvantage to PAF at proper AWACS coverage alongside the western borders. That's why we can't afford more delays in the induction of DRDO AWACS anymore and why we need additional orders of than system.
Wrt to the Mig 27s, only 4 squads are left and only 2 of them were upgraded, the engine upgrade was rejected as too costly for the limited life of the Migs. My feeling is, that with the additional 42 MKIs, all Mig 27s will be phased out till 2020. The 2 upgraded squads might be held in reserve though. Operationally, the lack of Mig 27s doesn't make any difference, since IAF is not dependent on dedicated strike fighters any more. MKI, M2K (especially after the upgrade) Mig 29UPG and even LCA MK1 will provide credible strike capabilities in a wide range of missions.

 

[monitor]

I don't think India facing any risk against Pakistan unless China attacking India on other side .even withoutMMRCA india can deploy 120+ su_30mki if only 50% of 272 are available along with upgraded mirage 2000 MIG-29 along with support from AWACS can be challenging for Pakistan . this kind of report is made just to pressured political leadership to release morefund for the force and fool Pakistani people .

 

[MilSpec]

LCA is no 4th generation aircraft. Please get your facts right on what constitutes a 4th gen aircraft. LCA is not in the same league as Grippen, Rafale, Typhoon - all contenders in the MMRCA deal.

Why dont you educate me about 4th generation aircrafts and show me how LCA doesn't constitute as one...

Airframe life is not the objective of an air force, the roles and mission parameters define what aircraft are needed. In this age of BVR you are talking about WVR capabilities. Instead of spending money on upgrades it is wiser to spend money on something that is build keeping in mind the concepts of modern 21st century air war, not some relic of 1970s era air fight..

Zhuk Me phazatron's search and tracking ranges are close to f16 Blk 52's APG 69 and J10's KLJ 10. Along with R77 and r27 Et/ER variants, it gives better if not comparable BVR attributes.

How many Migs were lost in Kargil war and how many Mirage 2000 were lost? What good is it having 1000 old designed aircraft that is vulnerable to enemy ground fire?

Read how Mig 27 was lost, and it was not due to ground fire btw.

You do realise that the only reason IAF is still flying and uprading old Jaguars is because they do not have funds to buy modern advanced fighters, right? Ask any air force officer and he will laugh when you suggest Jaguar is better than Mirage.

mate, your lack of comprehension is not my problem, I never said Jag's are better platforms that Mirage 2000's, I said they have better service rate that mirage's. Go and ask any air force pilot and he will attest to the same.

There would have been no need to purchase Mirage if Jaguar was that damn good.

A good question for IAF, wonder why would IAF buy Substandard Mig 29's Mig 27's Jaguars.. Ask that to air force officers. They might be able to explain it to better.

You need to improve your GK. The plan was to induct 300-400 F-22 air superiority fighters and 2000+, that is two THOUSAND, F-35 strike aircraft. USA is phasing out its older aircraft. They cannot do so overnight because of cost factors and building that many aircraft takes time.

And 400 Mki 's and 200 rafales and FGFA's will appear overnight? That exactly is the premise of my argument to extract the existing air frame life from the combat platforms that we currently have as an interim measure untill we have our future procurement's ready in place.

Respective time of induction is irrelevant. An aircraft that has no modern ECM, radar+missile warning system, self-defense mechanism will always be vulnerable to ground fire. The Mirage 2000 was sent to Kargil because all Migs were vulnerable to Stinger missiles.

You do realize that Sqdn Leader Ahuja sir's plane got his because he was trying a low pass recce to locate the crash site of Fl Lt Nachiketa's Mig 27 that went don due to engine malfunction. He was hit by a shoulder fired SAM, It wouldn't have mattered if he was in a Mki or a f16 looking on a low level recce unaware of the fact SAM's were operating in the vicinity.

Apart from that Mig 27's in IAF services were not air interdiction bombers, and did not have PGM capabilities, even though HAL had proposed DARE I and DARE II upgrades in the mid 90's.

PAF's fighter fleet is nothing that should concern IAF too much, neither on technical terms, nor on numbers. PAF however made very smart moves by adding AWACS, tankers and stand off missiles capabilities, which increases their situational awareness by far compared to the advantage IAF's fighters had with their own radar against PAF fighters and makes them able to strike targets on our side without entering our airspace like in the past. These are crucial tactical advantages they added in defensive and offensive situations.
LCA's delays are of course not good, but since it's only aimed at the low end of IAF, with very limited operational importance, it's not that much of concern. The delays of DRDO AWACS on the other side have effected IAF far more, since we waited to long for the success of DRDO, which delayed the procurement of additional A50 Phalcons and puts IAF in disadvantage to PAF at proper AWACS coverage alongside the western borders. That's why we can't afford more delays in the induction of DRDO AWACS anymore and why we need additional orders of than system.
Wrt to the Mig 27s, only 4 squads are left and only 2 of them were upgraded, the engine upgrade was rejected as too costly for the limited life of the Migs. My feeling is, that with the additional 42 MKIs, all Mig 27s will be phased out till 2020. The 2 upgraded squads might be held in reserve though. Operationally, the lack of Mig 27s doesn't make any difference, since IAF is not dependent on dedicated strike fighters any more. MKI, M2K (especially after the upgrade) Mig 29UPG and even LCA MK1 will provide credible strike capabilities in a wide range of missions.

I doubt your 4 squadron numbers.

 

[sancho]

I doubt your 4 squadron numbers.

That's official, didn't I gave you once the links about the AL 31 engine consideration of the Mig 27 and the upgrade, or was it another member? The Mig 23 and 27 will be replaced by MKIs and although the initial idea might had been to replace the 2 upgraded squads with FGFA, the issues of the Mig might had forced IAF to the additional 2 squads of MKI.

 

[MilSpec]

That's official, didn't I gave you once the links about the AL 31 engine consideration of the Mig 27 and the upgrade, or was it another member? The Mig 23 and 27 will be replaced by MKIs and although the initial idea might had been to replace the 2 upgraded squads with FGFA, the issues of the Mig might had forced IAF to the additional 2 squads of MKI.

I hav a lot of respect for the Mig 23 and thus a some of that flows into the 27 platform, With Dare III, A2A SP, and AL31, I am sure that Mig 27's could have found some life, but if IAF want's MKI's as replacement, who I am I protest.

Last I heard there are 7 active sqdns of Mig27M's. and at least 22 airframes lined up for overhaul and possible dare III upgrades. To me it was quite unfortunate to learn about r29's stress induced fatigue crack propagation, To me it was always a screamer of an engine.

 

[SQ8]

r29's stress induced fatigue crack propagation, To me it was always a screamer of an engine.

The first and latter part of the statement are rather related.

 

[MilSpec]

The first and latter part of the statement are rather related.

Unbalanced bearing stress is my guess.