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Indian Acquisition of the Gorshkov

Actually I have heard rumblings along the same lines from a independent and reliable source. SO the deal will not be coming with the current timeline anyway. And I would say that 2012 is now looking like a goner too.


You are right there two major problems that Russians have created here. One is that they told India of not meeting the timeline that was promised, and on top of that asked for additional money.
 
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And let you spam for a while too with a meaningless post to increase post count. It matters - for you.

And who has a diploma here in 'International Bargaining'? - LOL

No diploma or degree is needed.. at personal level just common sense & at national level, the ability to be counted .
 
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Russia mismanaged the project. Even if it was under-estimated, India was locked in under false promises. Now India has to pay up. India should demand penalties. Maybe the extra work can be done at cost.

Every project needs to complete on time, on budget and on quality. Over here we can see perhaps not even one of the targets being met.

If I was India I would first push for being reimbursed for Russia's mistake, and get a full refund and threaten to cancel the project. Russia would then bend over backwards to accommodate India. I mean surely something like that must've been signed on the contract right?
 
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You are right. This is not the only deal happening..things will be sorted / balanced out .India & Russia ( USSR) have a long history of negotiations over def deals.
 
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1. India can't get the work done on the original price.
2. Russia is not increasing costs for fun. They just effed up the 1st time and gave India a cheaper quote.
3. India should be pissed and threaten to cancel the deal AND demand their money back.
4. Russia should be begging and pleading India to stay on.

That is how the situation should be. But for some reason its not. If this deal dies its not an insult to India, but an insult to Russia.
 
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Nothing is happening to the deal. And yes, the Russians did screw up on the estimation part.

The "Vikramaditya" is coming to a friendly Indian port soon. These are minor glitches that can happen in a decades long relationship like Indian and Russia.
 
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Since we have already paid the $650 million for the Nuke Sub , the chances of leasing which appear slim @ best now . Any chance we can divert those towards the additional cost for Vikramaditya and re-negotiate on the remaining amount.
 
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Since we have already paid the $650 million for the Nuke Sub , the chances of leasing which appear slim @ best now . Any chance we can divert those towards the additional cost for Vikramaditya and re-negotiate on the remaining amount.

chances are not slim for the lease. The sub itself wasn't damaged. the problem was that the fire-extinguishing system went off without any reason. As soon as the problem is identified and rectified, the sub will be ready to head for india.

the deal will be delayed, but hopefully not by much.
 
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Russia Delays INS Vikramaditya (Adm Gorshkov) Delivery Till 2012
Dated 11/11/2008


Russia today said the delivery of Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier to the Indian Navy would be delayed till 2012 as the vessel could be refitted only sometime in 2010. It also said that since last year New Delhi has not made any payments although the extra work to the tune of USD 1.7 billion has been done by the shipyard.

The 44.5-thousand tonner Kiev class aircraft carrier was to be initially commissioned as INS Vikramaditya in August this year under the USD 1.5 billion deal signed in January 2004, which included the refit of the vessel and supply of 16 MiG-29K fighters.

According to an unnamed representative of Severodvinsk-based Sevmash shipyard, Gorshkov will be launched in early December, probably to coincide with Russian President Dmitry Medvedev's maiden visit to India.

After launching it would be moored to the assembly wall for the completion of its refit.

"At this juncture, the completion of work in 2010 would be realistic. Two more years would be required to complete the vessel's sailing trials, including testing its aircraft in the severe conditions of Barents Sea," the shipyard 'representative' was quoted as saying by ITAR-TASS.

Sea going and flying trials of the refitted aircraft carrier will be conducted by the Russian crew trained on the "Admiral Kuznetsov" aircraft carrier in service with the Russian Navy.

Russia Delays INS Vikramaditya (Adm Gorshkov) Delivery Till 2012 | India Defence
 
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Indian way of doing the things :)
LiveFist: Photos: Indian Navy prays for INS Vikramaditya (last resort!)

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The Sevmash shipyard's publicist Anastasia Nikitinskaya writes about a function at the shipyard yesterday. Hilarious stuff: The Indians asked God for happy fortune for the aircraft-carrier which is soon going to be launched. One of the most important stages of repair and re-equipment of Vikramaditya cruiser (former Admiral Gorshkov) is coming to the end. The Sevmash specialists are getting ready to undock the ship, all the works required already finished. The representatives of the Indian Navy WOT, held a ceremony before the operation starts, with prayers offered up to Lord Ganesha. It is the first time for Sevmash: lamps, fragrant sticks, fruit and flowers were put near the Ship, for Ganesha to be gracious to the aircraft carrier and to those serving onboard. Instead of the traditional bottle of champagne, a coconut was broken against the ship board, and all the guests were treated with fruits.

"We hope that this beautiful and reliable ship will serve for a long time for the greater glory of friendship between Russia and India," said Sevmash Director General Nikolay Kalistratov. "But in the first place our leaders are to come to an agreement and find the means to carry the work to its conclusion." The Ship is getting ready for launching, and in the picture which was given to the Indian colleagues as a keepsake the aircraft-carrier is already furrowing the seas.

That last comment by the Sevmash Director is hilarious. Trust the Russians to be all sombre and ironic even at a felicitation ritual! Some nerve. Oh well, here's hoping the coconut does its job.
 
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INS Chernobyl(Nerpa) already had a typical widowmaker introduction in the sea trials. I seriously don't understand why the Indians aren't incensed by how their Govt is being mollified by Ivan, heck these overruns and ultimatums seems like downlight daylight robbery.

In the past I can understand, Russia was their only serious partner but it It's not like they don't have European and American contractors salivating over their market. Money talks everywhere. I guess the Russians have the lilttle black book of every Indian bureucrat that gets their hands greased when these deals go through...
 
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Further Updates on the deal:


Nov 13/08: As negotiations regarding the Gorshkov continue to drag on, pressure for timely resolution is building on the Russian side, as well. Sevmash (Severodvinsk Machine Building Enterprise) shipyard Deputy General-Director Sergey Novoselov tells RIA Novosti new agency that: “We are essentially constructing a new aircraft carrier at the open assembly berth of Sevmash. In the last two years, work has only proceeded thanks to internal loans….”

That cannot continue indefinitely – but Sevmash is not backlogged with projects,which means it needs to hang on to the Admiral Gorshkov refit. So, what if India proves unwilling to pay? Novoselov pointed out that even at $2 billion, a refitted Gorshkov costs only 50-67% of the $3-4 billion involved in building a medium sized carrier. Novoselov would not be pinned down to any firm figure, of course, but some Russian defense planners are either taking him seriously, or willing to help him put added pressure on India. RIA Novosti, via Forecast Interational:

“If India won’t pay the money [over the agreed $617 million], we will keep the aircraft carrier ourselves. It will be very useful to us, because the situation in the world is complicated. Vessels like that are needed to patrol the waters of the Atlantic and the Mediterranean,” noted a Russian defense industry official.”

If Russia did make that move, India would need compensation for costs incurred to date – reportedly about $400 million.

Oct 18/08: The Hindu newspaper quotes Sevmash Shipyard’s deputy director for foreign defence contracts Sergei Novosyolov, who says that Gorshkov will be taken out of dry dock by the end of the month.

“The ship’s hull has been fully done and painted and scaffolding will be dismantled by the end of October…”


INS Vikramaditya Hits Delay, Cost Increases
 
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The Admiral Gorshkov returns?
19:22 | 20/ 11/ 2008

MOSCOW. (RIA Novosti military commentator Ilya Kramnik) - The transfer of the aircraft carrier Vikramaditya, formerly known as Admiral Gorshkov, to India has been planned for several years already.

Although the warship, under refurbishment since 2004, was to join the Indian navy in 2008, the carrier's update is behind schedule. A heavy increase in the cost of both labor and components plus the Sevmash facility's lack of experience in dealing with large surface ships have all contributed to the delay.

In spring 2007, the announcement that the transfer of the Admiral Gorshkov to India would not take place before 2010 was followed by protracted talks on the price and term of the contract. Verbal agreement on major issues was announced several times, though no final agreement has yet been achieved.

On November 13, Sevmash's announcement that the updated carrier would soon be afloat was followed by a notice that the warship could join the Russian navy if no agreement on costs is reached.

Sevmash deputy CEO Sergei Novoselov said at least $2 billion are needed to complete the work on the ship. Meanwhile India reported that it is prepared to allocate no more than a few hundred million dollars for the project. It is unclear when and how will this argument end. Most likely it will happen before the end of this year.

What will it mean for Russia if the ship doesn't end up in India? On the one hand, a failure to meet commitments to a foreign partner would hit Russia's reputation. On the other hand, a possible decision to provide funding to complete the ship and return it to the Russian navy would favor both the country's defense industry and the navy, which needs an aircraft carrier.

The current state of the Russian armed forces requires an immediate increase in hardware even through reducing military exports, as was the case with the Iskander tactical missile system. The Iskander is not to be sold abroad until the country's army receives the required number of these launchers.

Regarding the Admiral Gorshkov, what will this ship be like once completed?

It will have a 38,000, 48,000 and 53,000 ton unloaded, standard and laden tonnage, respectively, and a 273-meter long flight deck. The vessel will carry 16 to 20 MiG-29 fighters and six to eight Kamov Ka-28/Ka-31 helicopters. If sold to India, the ship will also be able to carry HAL Tejas trainer aircraft and Dhruv light helicopters. Besides aviation, the warship will be fitted with Kinzhal air defense missiles and Kashtan air defense gun/missile systems.

The updated ship will be closest in performance to the French nuclear-powered aircraft carrier Charles De Gaulle, which has a slightly lower laden tonnage of 43,000 tons and a higher endurance thanks to its power plant. The more rational design of the latter also provides more room on the hangar deck, 4,600 sq m compared to 2,900 on the Admiral Gorshkov, enough to contain up to 40 aircraft.

The Russian ship, however, will be faster and, according to some experts, will have higher sea worthiness, ensuring aircraft operation in adverse weather.

A significant advantage of the Admiral Gorshkov returning into service with the Russian navy would be that it could take to the sea as soon as early next decade, while an advanced aircraft carrier, if put into production in December 2008, would not be completed until 2014 or 2015 at best.

The destiny of the aircraft carrier will be clear soon. It's hard to tell, though, which of the two possible outcomes will be best for Russia.


RIA Novosti - Opinion & analysis - The Admiral Gorshkov returns?
 
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Russia asks India to pay 2 billion dollars more for 'Admiral Gorshkov'

Moscow, Nov 14 : Russia has asked India to pay two billion dollars more for complete modernisation of heavy aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov, in order to deliver it to the Indian Navy in 2012.

''Construction of the ship will be completed in 2010 and tests will start in 2011, while in 2012 it will be transferred to the Indian Navy,'' the General Director of Russian shipyard Shevmash Nikolai Kalistratov told RIA Novosti news agency yesterday.

Kalistratov said, ''It would only be handed over if New Delhi provided sufficient funding to complete the construction
of the carrier.'' Another senior-level official of the shipyard said the market dictated that India should pay a further two billion dollars.

''The market price of such an aircraft carrier varies between three billion dollars and four billion dollars. The ongoing maintenance and upgrade makes up 60-70 per cent of the new carrier's cost. This is about two billion dollars,'' Deputy General Director of Sevmash Sergei Novoselov said.

An official in Russian Defence Ministry said if India failed to foot the bill, the carrier could be given to the Russian Navy.

''If India does not pay up, we will keep the aircraft carrier,'' the agency quoted him as saying.

Kalistratov said the aircraft carrier was 49 per cent complete and would be floated out before the end of this week so construction could be completed in a wet dock.

The original 750 million dollar contract to deliver Admiral Gorshkov to India was signed with the Indian Navy in 2004. Under the contract, the project was to be completed in 2008.

However, Russia later claimed it underestimated the scale and the cost of the modernisation of the carrier and demanded an additional 1.2 billion dollars.

Last February, Russia and India agreed to raise retrofit costs for the aircraft carrier, docked at the Sevmash shipyard in northern Russia for the past 12 years, by at least 800 million dollars.

The current contract covers a complete overhaul of the ship and equipping it with modern weaponry, including MiG-29K Fulcrum aircraft and Ka-27 Helix-A and Ka-31 Helix-B anti-submarine helicopters.

The 45,000-ton Admiral Gorshkov is to be commissioned in the Indian Navy as INS Vikramaditya.

--- UNI


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I think it's a fair deal (although many would disagree) , to build a carrier the size and capability of the Gorshkov , it would take at least 4 billion in India and add another billion for cost escalation and delays .

2 billion in Total is not bad for a totally refitted carrier which will remain in active service for at least 25 years.

Besides we've been building the IAC in Cochin and hopefully Gorki will be the last a/c carrier we'll need to import , so 2 billion would be worth it.
 
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