India - Yet another Indian student suicides because of an exam

jamahir · Mar 16, 2022

fitpOsitive said:
Na zuban apni, na economy apni, na education apni. CEO to boht hain hamary, per kia hasiat hai hamari?
Why South Asian education system pushes its students towards a blind future?

Well said.

Mentee · Mar 16, 2022

jamahir said:
@Mentee, sorry I didn't tag you for the OP.

@fitpOsitive, sorry I didn't tag you too though I saw you had visited the page.

@Sudarshan, read the OP onwards.

The problem is very deep rooted in the South Asian psyche . I consider the following three factors responsible for shaping this new-abnormal.

1-Caste syndrome

2-Condemning the empirical science/ craftsman ship in favour of colonial legacy of babu-ism so much so that people even consider professionals as loosers if they fail to join a certain royal cult via a yearly lottery .

3-The myth of women emancipation where the media has created an hysteria among the ladies that if they aren't "independent" their own kith and kin gonna devour them etc

Vapnope · Mar 16, 2022

@jamahir In my humble opinion Indian education system is not to blame here it has more to do with how people perceive it.
The overall society (South Asian) has a very negative view of anyone's failure without understanding their environment/conditions.

The society lacks sympathy in a way that it looks down upon people who fail and think one pony trick can solve all problems of everyone.

I totally agree with you that basic necessities like education, health and housing should be free however our financial constraints and some time lack of empathy stops us to provide this solution.

It is unfortunate incident and i believe schools should have psychiatrist to work on the mental health of students.

Skull and Bones · Mar 17, 2022

When your grades becomes a showpiece for your parents to brag about in community gatherings, children are bound to suffer. I suffered a lot and all my hobbies were killed because I was average.

MultaniGuy · Mar 17, 2022

In Islam, suicide is regarded as a major sin.

As for the person, try a different profession then.

Or should not have cheated and accepted a B- or C grade then.

nahtanbob · Mar 17, 2022

Vapnope said:
@jamahir In my humble opinion Indian education system is not to blame here it has more to do with how people perceive it.
The overall society (South Asian) has a very negative view of anyone's failure without understanding their environment/conditions.

The society lacks sympathy in a way that it looks down upon people who fail and think one pony trick can solve all problems of everyone.

I totally agree with you that basic necessities like education, health and housing should be free however our financial constraints and some time lack of empathy stops us to provide this solution.

It is unfortunate incident and i believe schools should have psychiatrist to work on the mental health of students.

Some Indians seems very averse to failure. A society cannot progress without failing

The girl in this case had no ethics (not her personal fault, she is a 19 year old). It reflects poorly on society and her family.

Why do I find this hard to believe this ?
“During counselling, we made it clear that she can appear for the rest of the exams confidently and advised her not to indulge in unethical practices. She even apologised and requested us not to inform her parents,” the spokesperson said.

Sharma Ji · Mar 17, 2022

jamahir said:
@Sharma Ji, you were disgusted by the killing of a dog in China but will you express disgust at the murder of humans by the Indian socio-economic system ?

Hard not to feel sorry for her and her loved ones, a most unfortunate incident.

I'm also sorry to say this, but... "Indian socio economic system" wut ? Only she is to blame.

She could have just owned up to her cheating, said sorry and 'taken it on the chin', learnt from her mistake, made peace with it, grown from it.. and moved forward.

I've been caught cheating, I'd made all these 'farras' (little cheat strips), got caught copying of a guide book once too lol. Parents got called in, a most embarrassing affair... didn't kill myself.

Your ideas about how things should be are terrible, some nanny state doling out everything to all its citizens.. free house, free car, free food.. :nono:

I suppose it would be fine if the state could just conjure up all those goodies to distribute but the only way they can do it to STEAL from others. It is not mine (or anyone's) responsibility to either shelter, or put food on anyone's table, educate, pay, feed and clothe them.

Why do you have so much trouble grasping such basic concepts ?

nahtanbob · Mar 17, 2022

Sharma Ji said:
Hard not to feel sorry for her and her loved ones, a most unfortunate incident.

I'm also sorry to say this, but... "Indian socio economic system" wut ? Only she is to blame.

She could have just owned up to her cheating, said sorry and 'taken it on the chin', learnt from her mistake, made peace with it, grown from it.. and moved forward.

I've been caught cheating, I'd made all these 'farras' (little cheat strips), got caught copying of a guide book once too lol. Parents got called in, a most embarrassing affair... didn't kill myself.

Your ideas about how things should be are terrible, some nanny state doling out everything to all its citizens.. free house, free car, free food..

I suppose it would be fine if the state could just conjure up all those goodies to distribute but the only way they can do it to STEAL from others. It is not mine (or anyone's) responsibility to either shelter, or put food on anyone's table, educate, pay, feed and clothe them.

Why do you have so much trouble grasping such basic concepts ?

things like personal responsibility and morality are alien to some folks

Great Janjua · Mar 17, 2022

The age-old tactic of south Asians pushing their children to the edge just to show off their degrees.

A child should be taught to chase their dreams and aspirations, not a random paper tag. A degree doesn't define you, only your work for your ambitions, goals, and future make you a free-thinking human.

Learn to chase the stars.

Leishangthem · Mar 17, 2022

nahtanbob said:
things like personal responsibility and morality are alien to some folks

Indians' abnormal lack of moral conscience like rectitude, benevolence, honesty, self-reflection, is the most appalling shortcoming above anything else. In the end, the quality of a nation is the quality of its human resource, everything else means moot .

SD 10 · Mar 17, 2022

Itna bhi exam ka panga hai yr, ziada se ziada kia ho jaye ga fail ho jao gay......Itna pressure kaise lai laita hain log!!!!!

Black Vigo · Mar 17, 2022

jamahir said:
He would have used chance opportunities including of a small network to gradually become prosperous but not everyone will have the privilege and the chance to those opportunities so the idea should be to enable an evolved socio-economic system that gives everyone the opportunity to create or join enterprises of their choice as long as those enterprises don't go against justice and the common good.

How does this go against the justice and common good?
And what makes you think people who are unwilling to struggle for their own well being deserve equal opportunities to those who do so?

Why should a person with no input get equal output to the person with more input? How is that fair? Why should I share my earnings with others when they didn't even have part in it?

You fail to provide justification for this always

jamahir said:
2. If you are complaining about others complaining about their oppressed station in life that exists not because of natural causes but just because that particular society has an unscientific and disparity-maintaining socio-economic system, then you simply are being non-empathetic. Can you go to the Orangi Town slum in Karachi or Dharavi slum in Bombay and tell them that they should continue to suffer because of some divine ordinance and that they will respect you for that ?

If you're talking about capitalism I don't approve it, capitalism is as evil but it is the lesser evil between itself and communism and no I am not being non-empathetic I am being realistic and fair nobody deserves more than their input that is how it is

and yes I can go to "Orangi Town slum" or "Dharavi slum" but not tot tell them they should continue to suffer but they can change their situation and it is not impossible just requires your dedication to the task at hand

By the way you speak like communism has eradicated poverty and hunger then why is it that millions died under communist dictatorship?

The final step is for the new socialist society to reach a stage in which profit and money disappear. Society will become fully productive; the material needs of society will be met. In this final stage, profit will disappear, as will the need for money.

The recognition of profit is an acknowledgment of exploitation, for profit has no limit. Attempts so far to limit profit by various means have been reformative, not radical, intending to prohibit exploitation of man by man. The final solution lies in eradicating profit, but because profit is the dynamic force behind the economic process, eliminating profit is not a matter of decree but, rather, an outcome of the evolving socialist process. This solution can be attained when the material satisfaction of the needs of society and its members is achieved. Work to increase profit will itself lead to its final eradication.

jamahir said:
2. Wealth : You mistakenly consider wealth to be just money but the actual wealth is the resources in the society - human and material - which should be arranged to enable a society where the material needs of the citizens are balanced between individual satisfaction and the common good which will make the society harmonious and evolved. Now, since we have decided that money is artificial we have to speak of abolishing it but at a later point because we need to currently compensate for human labor and we don't yet have molecular replicators that produce objects for free. But since money has to exist for now but not contribute to injustice and class oppression we have to have an evolved money system within a society, in fact throughout humanity, so that evolved money system is what I have written. It is a money system yet manages to abolish the economic classes ( rich, middle, poor ) and enables a welfare system where every citizen has free access to all basic amenities and has potentially equal access to all other goods and services in society. This is the actual distribution of wealth. Don't stop yourself from reading it just because it has the label of Communism, just read it. To speak of this thread's topic I guarantee that no student in my system will suicide because of socio-economic reasons.

Exploitation of man by man huh?

Droughts and famines in Russia and the Soviet Union - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This is the reality of communist dictatorship

Meanwhile Stalin had his personal doctors, personal chef cooking delicacies for him

We already witnessed the fruits of communism its funny how all communist countries collapsed or are currently on the verge of collapse yet someone living in a capitalist country thinks communism will work talk about irony

jamahir · Mar 17, 2022

Mentee said:
The problem is very deep rooted in the South Asian psyche . I consider the following three factors responsible for shaping this new-abnormal.

1-Caste syndrome

2-Condemning the empirical science/ craftsman ship in favour of colonial legacy of babu-ism so much so that people even consider professionals as loosers if they fail to join a certain royal cult via a yearly lottery .

3-The myth of women emancipation where the media has created an hysteria among the ladies that if they aren't "independent" their own kith and kin gonna devour them etc

Totally agree with points# 1 and 2 but not with 3. We live in South Asia and if a female is not financially independent to whatever extent the socio-economic throws at them then she will be at the mercy of her male relatives and female relatives. The dominant culture in India unfortunately legitimized the misogynist and suffocating of Hindu religious text, the Manusmriti, that current Hindutvadis like the chief minister of Uttar Pradesh, Yogi Adityanath, have championed. Here are some of Yogi's views :

He believes women need male protection from birth to death and their ‘energy/power’ should be regulated or controlled, lest it become worthless and destructive.

He adds the shastras say that a woman is protected in her childhood by her father, by her husband in her youth and by her son in her old age — so that way a woman is not capable of being left free or independent.

So, do you think in such an environment all females in India can trust their relatives who have been forwarding the above anti-human ideas received from generations ?

Vapnope said:
@jamahir In my humble opinion Indian education system is not to blame here it has more to do with how people perceive it.

About the Indian education please re-look at my commentary in the OP.

I have been through the same system and I rebelled and rejected it in class 12 and dropped out instead of torturing myself psychologically. That was my perception. Though a few years later I took up a BA course it seems that the exam sheet checkers had a answer sheet of their own and they checked for word-to-word similarly between mine and theirs instead of them reading my answers and looking for my analysis of the questions. They didn't want analysis so they flunked me. :lol:

But I proudly call myself a class 12 dropout and have achieved a few things without a degree including co-founding a company whereas those who achieve 90 percent marks seek employment in others' companies.

Vapnope said:
The overall society (South Asian) has a very negative view of anyone's failure without understanding their environment/conditions.

The society lacks sympathy in a way that it looks down upon people who fail and think one pony trick can solve all problems of everyone.

Agreed. That's why modern South Asians have been followers and late adopters instead of being innovators, leaders and early adopters. South Asians fail to realize that ideas fail along the way and the first failure should not mean that the idea be dropped and the person doing it should get into the rat race of jobs and a second college degree ( first an engineering degree and then an MBA for some strange reason ). And if the failure happens to be in the so-called studies time then the family is the first to throw the stones sadly.

Vapnope said:
I totally agree with you that basic necessities like education, health and housing should be free however our financial constraints and some time lack of empathy stops us to provide this solution.

Thank you for agreeing to the underlined. :tup:

About the latter things, well, the governments could simply have nationalized the education system and made it free for the students. Most of the 20,000 Indian students in Ukraine were for the medicine field and they went there because not only are there less number of medical colleges in India ( which of course have intense and unnecessary competition to enter ) but also since medicine study is mostly private in India the fee can go up to one crore ( ! ) which most people cannot afford so they go to Ukraine where the medicine study plus accommodation will cost just around 20 lakhs. Not free but still cheaper than in India.

Vapnope said:
It is unfortunate incident and i believe schools should have psychiatrist to work on the mental health of students.

I disagree with you here in the sense that psychiatry is mostly quack science where the psychiatrist will look at the immediate symptoms of a sufferer like sleeplessness and will prescribe some chemicals but in the case of this suicided girl, Bhavya, will those chemicals cure the rot that is actually in the system and the girl is the victim of it ?

The family of the sufferer will go along with the psychiatrist because the psychiatrist is supposed to be a doctor but the family won't realize that they themselves are part of the problem in bringing the societal wrongness down on the head of the sufferer every day. No, the schools don't require psychiatrists for at least this, the society requires intellectuals and revolutionaries.

And see how psychiatristic institutions are misused by families in India to oppress one of their members :

Bengaluru: In a shocking example of the way women are treated in our society, a 27-year-old mother of two was allegedly branded mentally unstable by her own family, for filing a domestic violence and dowry harassment complaint against her husband. Shalini (name changed for privacy) was made to spend five days in a psychiatric ward at a prominent facility in the city on the behest of her parents and husband, who claimed that she was prone to angry outbursts. The case was brought to light by prominent advocate Pramila Nesargi, who has intervened on Shalini's behalf.

Shalini, 27, who has a young daughter and a son was reportedly frequently beaten by her husband. According to her advocate, Basavaraj Patel GK, the father had promised the husband a piece of land. "Because that hadn't happened, he would come home every night and abuse her mentally and physically," said Basavaraj.

On June 28, unable to deal with this any longer, Shalini took her two small children and checked into Shakti Dhama in Mysore, an organisation that works with women in distress. She remained there for a week, until July 5, when her husband and father allegedly came to take her back on the promise that all the torture would come to an end.

When her husband continued to ill treat her, she approached Basavaraju, who helped her file a case in an MMTC Court in Bangalore rural on July 17, 2014. One week later, she filed for divorce at a family court in the city, on grounds of cruelty. As the abuse continued unabated, Shalini filed a complaint at the Kumbalgod police station on August 10. "The FIR was lodged and police visited her house for an enquiry," said Basavaraj.

"The husband conspired with his in-laws, which Nandini has mentioned in the FIR," said Pramila Nesargi. "He managed to convince his in-laws that she had a psychiatric disorder." Shalini, in the end, was admitted to a psychiatric facility in the city last week, where she remained for a period of five days.

"Her parents brought her to the hospital, saying she had anger issues," said the psychiatrist who treated her, on condition of anonymity. "When we counseled her, we realized that she was having marital problems, so we asked the couple to come in for joint counseling. We managed to sort out the problem amicably, they wrote apology letters to each other and she was even willing to withdraw the complaint by the time she was discharged," he said. "We explained to her that her life would be very difficult, being unemployed and uneducated, with two small children in a male-dominated society," he added.

While the issue seems to have been wrapped up neatly, the story has not come to an end just yet for Nandini. While her advocate Basavaraj agrees that there are plans to withdraw the complaint, he also received an alarming phone call from the victim on Thursday morning. "She called me from a different number and said that her family had forbidden her from having any contact with people outside the family," he said. Shalini has stated that she fears for her safety as well as that of her children, but it seems as if her nightmare will continue, if she is forced to break contact with her advocate and the activists who are currently fighting her cause.

nahtanbob said:
Some Indians seems very averse to failure. A society cannot progress without failing

Some ? Most Indians are hence my agreement with you that India has not quite been an experimenter in technological, political and socio-economic ideas.

nahtanbob said:
The girl in this case had no ethics (not her personal fault, she is a 19 year old). It reflects poorly on society and her family.

Age doesn't have anything to do with this. Nature anyway declared her adult years ago. If age was a factor in her deciding to suicide what about this 55-year-old engineer ?

India - Jobless engineer slits son's throat, takes poison with wife : Cops

Jobless Engineer Slits Son's Throat, Takes Poison With Wife: Cops Both the man (55) and his wife were in acute depression, according to a primary probe based on the latter's statements. Her statements also revealed that the couple had planned the entire episode nearly two to three days ago...

defence.pk

nahtanbob said:
Why do I find this hard to believe this ?
“During counselling, we made it clear that she can appear for the rest of the exams confidently and advised her not to indulge in unethical practices. She even apologised and requested us not to inform her parents,” the spokesperson said.

Sorry, what do you find hard to believe ?

Great Janjua said:
The age-old tactic of south Asians pushing their children to the edge just to show off their degrees.

A child should be taught to chase their dreams and aspirations, not a random paper tag. A degree doesn't define you, only your work for your ambitions, goals, and future make you a free-thinking human.

Learn to chase the stars.

Total agreement. I rebelled and rejected the system and I am happy with myself now though not with the political and socio-economic system that surrounds me.

SD 10 said:
Itna bhi exam ka panga hai yr, ziada se ziada kia ho jaye ga fail ho jao gay......Itna pressure kaise lai laita hain log!!!!!

I too failed and rejected the system and then was successful in a few things that most degree'd people have not been. Unfortunate that most students come under family and societal pressure and do not reject the ridiculous system.

MultaniGuy said:
In Islam, suicide is regarded as a major sin.

As for the person, try a different profession then.

Or should not have cheated and accepted a B- or C grade then.

Yes suicide is haraam in Islam but that didn't stop two young Muslim men from suiciding in Pakistan late last year from unemployment. Same happens in Gaza, Palestine.

The problems are the existent wrong political and socio-economic systems. So instead of these students offing their lives why don't they overthrow the wrong system and punish those who had maintained it ? That would be something worthwhile than wasting what can turn out to be a contributing life.

Sharma Ji said:
I'm also sorry to say this, but... "Indian socio economic system" wut ? Only she is to blame.

She could have just owned up to her cheating, said sorry and 'taken it on the chin', learnt from her mistake, made peace with it, grown from it.. and moved forward.

I've been caught cheating, I'd made all these 'farras' (little cheat strips), got caught copying of a guide book once too lol. Parents got called in, a most embarrassing affair... didn't kill myself.

1. You didn't blame that stupid dog for existing but you are victim-blaming this girl instead of blaming, yes the unscientific, non-contributing, non-empathetic and dog-eat-dog socio-economic system. Didn't you read my post previously that quoted NR Narayana Murthy's complaint against Indian academic system ? What next, will you blame the oppressed lower castes for existing ?

2. You say she was doing a mistake when the entire system surrounding her was the actual mistake !

3. OK you have been caught cheating but why didn't you rebel against the system and reject it like I did ?

Sharma Ji said:
Your ideas about how things should be are terrible, some nanny state doling out everything to all its citizens.. free house, free car, free food..

I suppose it would be fine if the state could just conjure up all those goodies to distribute but the only way they can do it to STEAL from others.

1. So if a government does not provide a welfare system to its citizens like free housing, free basic food, free water, free healthcare, free education, free telecom etc what is the purpose of that government to exist ? Build religious statues and temples and build prime minister palaces and become one of the two largest importer of armaments in the world ?

2. No free cars and two-wheelers. In fact a total ban on them. Please read this thread of mine :

Making the case for a global ban on privately-owned personal transport cars and two-wheelers

I have often made this topic in posts so I thought why not create a thread for this for discussion and readership. Privately-owned personal transport vehicles ( cars and two-wheelers ) are I believe the biggest form of pollution in the world, directly through their usage and secondarily through...

defence.pk

3. In Communism the governance system doesn't steal from anyone. Stealing happens in Capitalism. For example, my money has been stolen by Modi to purchase those two new Boeing planes for himself that cost two billion dollars. My money has been stolen by Mukesh Ambani to build his two-billion-dollar 27-storey "house" in Bombay and to purchase his 168 cars. For Communism please read post# 13 and then post# 7.

Sharma Ji said:
It is not mine (or anyone's) responsibility to either shelter, or put food on anyone's table, educate, pay, feed and clothe them.

Why do you have so much trouble grasping such basic concepts ?

You need not daily feed anyone or educate anyone or clothe anyone, you just need to participate in a revolution that will enable a system that will do that and keep running by itself. You only then on need to be a contributory part of society. But if you don't want to contribute to society and ignore the fact that the amenities you use come from other people's contribution then you can go away to some ashram in the Himalayas and live a sanyasi life.

MultaniGuy · Mar 18, 2022

jamahir said:
Totally agree with points# 1 and 2 but not with 3. We live in South Asia and if a female is not financially independent to whatever extent the socio-economic throws at them then she will be at the mercy of her male relatives and female relatives. The dominant culture in India unfortunately legitimized the misogynist and suffocating of Hindu religious text, the Manusmriti, that current Hindutvadis like the chief minister of Uttar Pradesh, Yogi Adityanath, have championed. Here are some of Yogi's views :

So, do you think in such an environment all females in India can trust their relatives who have been forwarding the above anti-human ideas received from generations ?

About the Indian education please re-look at my commentary in the OP. I have been through the same system and I rebelled and rejected it in class 12 and dropped out instead of torturing myself psychologically. That was my perception. Though a few years later I took up a BA course it seems that the exam sheet checkers had a answer sheet of their own and they checked for word-to-word similarly between mine and theirs instead of them reading my answers and looking for my analysis of the questions. They didn't want analysis so they flunked me. But I proudly call myself a class 12 dropout and have achieved a few things without a degree including co-founding a company whereas those who achieve 90 percent marks seek employment in others' companies.

Agreed. That's why modern South Asians have been followers and late adopters instead of being innovators, leaders and early adopters. South Asians fail to realize that ideas fail along the way and the first failure should not mean that the idea be dropped and the person doing it should get into the rat race of jobs and a second college degree ( first an engineering degree and then an MBA for some strange reason ). And if the failure happens to be in the so-called studies time then the family is the first to throw the stones sadly.

Thank you for agreeing to the underlined. About the latter things, well, the governments could simply have nationalized the education system and made it free for the students. Most of the 20,000 Indian students in Ukraine were for the medicine field and they went there because not only are there less number of medical colleges in India ( which of course have intense and unnecessary competition to enter ) but also since medicine study is mostly private in India the fee can go up to one crore ( ! ) which most people cannot afford so they go to Ukraine where the medicine study plus accommodation will cost just around 20 lakhs. Not free but still cheaper than in India.

I disagree with you here in the sense that psychiatry is mostly quack science where the psychiatrist will look at the immediate symptoms of a sufferer like sleeplessness and will prescribe some chemicals but in the case of this suicided girl, Bhavya, will those chemicals cure the rot that is actually in the system and the girl is the victim of it ? The family of the sufferer will go along with the psychiatrist because the psychiatrist is supposed to be a doctor but the family won't realize that they themselves are part of the problem in bringing the societal wrongness down on the head of the sufferer every day. No, the schools don't require psychiatrists for at least this, the society requires intellectuals and revolutionaries.

And see how psychiatristic institutions are misused by families in India to oppress one of their members :

Some ? Most Indians are hence my agreement with you that India has not quite been an experimenter in technological, political and socio-economic ideas.

Age doesn't have anything to do with this. Nature anyway declared her adult years ago. If age was a factor in her deciding to suicide what about this 55-year-old engineer ?

India - Jobless engineer slits son's throat, takes poison with wife : Cops

Jobless Engineer Slits Son's Throat, Takes Poison With Wife: Cops Both the man (55) and his wife were in acute depression, according to a primary probe based on the latter's statements. Her statements also revealed that the couple had planned the entire episode nearly two to three days ago...

defence.pk

Sorry, what do you find hard to believe ?

Total agreement. I rebelled and rejected the system and I am happy with myself now though not with the political and socio-economic system that surrounds me.

I too failed and rejected the system and then was successful in a few things that most degree'd people have not been. Unfortunate that most students come under family and societal pressure and do not reject the ridiculous system.

Yes suicide is haraam in Islam but that didn't stop two young Muslim men from suiciding in Pakistan late last year from unemployment. Same happens in Gaza, Palestine. The problems are the existent wrong political and socio-economic systems. So instead of these students offing their lives why don't they overthrow the wrong system and punish those who had maintained it ? That would be something worthwhile than wasting what can turn out to be a contributing life.

1. You didn't blame that stupid dog for existing but you are victim-blaming this girl instead of blaming, yes the unscientific, non-contributing, non-empathetic and dog-eat-dog socio-economic system. Didn't you read my post previously that quoted NR Narayana Murthy's complaint against Indian academic system ? What next, will you blame the oppressed lower castes for existing ?

2. You say she was doing a mistake when the entire system surrounding her was the actual mistake !

3. OK you have been caught cheating but why didn't you rebel against the system and reject it like I did ?

1. So if a government does not provide a welfare system to its citizens like free housing, free basic food, free water, free healthcare, free education, free telecom etc what is the purpose of that government to exist ? Build religious statues and temples and build prime minister palaces and become one of the two largest importer of armaments in the world ?

2. No free cars and two-wheelers. In fact a total ban on them. Please read this thread of mine :

Making the case for a global ban on privately-owned personal transport cars and two-wheelers

I have often made this topic in posts so I thought why not create a thread for this for discussion and readership. Privately-owned personal transport vehicles ( cars and two-wheelers ) are I believe the biggest form of pollution in the world, directly through their usage and secondarily through...

defence.pk

3. In Communism the governance system doesn't steal from anyone. Stealing happens in Capitalism. For example, my money has been stolen by Modi to purchase those two new Boeing planes for himself that cost two billion dollars. My money has been stolen by Mukesh Ambani to build his two-billion-dollar 27-storey "house" in Bombay and to purchase his 168 cars. For Communism please read post# 13 and then post# 7.

You need not daily feed anyone or educate anyone or clothe anyone, you just need to participate in a revolution that will enable a system that will do that and keep running by itself. You only then on need to be a contributory part of society. But if you don't want to contribute to society and ignore the fact that the amenities you use come from other people's contribution then you can go away to some ashram in the Himalayas and live a sanyasi life.

Well I do not know what

jamahir said:
Totally agree with points# 1 and 2 but not with 3. We live in South Asia and if a female is not financially independent to whatever extent the socio-economic throws at them then she will be at the mercy of her male relatives and female relatives. The dominant culture in India unfortunately legitimized the misogynist and suffocating of Hindu religious text, the Manusmriti, that current Hindutvadis like the chief minister of Uttar Pradesh, Yogi Adityanath, have championed. Here are some of Yogi's views :

So, do you think in such an environment all females in India can trust their relatives who have been forwarding the above anti-human ideas received from generations ?

About the Indian education please re-look at my commentary in the OP. I have been through the same system and I rebelled and rejected it in class 12 and dropped out instead of torturing myself psychologically. That was my perception. Though a few years later I took up a BA course it seems that the exam sheet checkers had a answer sheet of their own and they checked for word-to-word similarly between mine and theirs instead of them reading my answers and looking for my analysis of the questions. They didn't want analysis so they flunked me. But I proudly call myself a class 12 dropout and have achieved a few things without a degree including co-founding a company whereas those who achieve 90 percent marks seek employment in others' companies.

Agreed. That's why modern South Asians have been followers and late adopters instead of being innovators, leaders and early adopters. South Asians fail to realize that ideas fail along the way and the first failure should not mean that the idea be dropped and the person doing it should get into the rat race of jobs and a second college degree ( first an engineering degree and then an MBA for some strange reason ). And if the failure happens to be in the so-called studies time then the family is the first to throw the stones sadly.

Thank you for agreeing to the underlined. About the latter things, well, the governments could simply have nationalized the education system and made it free for the students. Most of the 20,000 Indian students in Ukraine were for the medicine field and they went there because not only are there less number of medical colleges in India ( which of course have intense and unnecessary competition to enter ) but also since medicine study is mostly private in India the fee can go up to one crore ( ! ) which most people cannot afford so they go to Ukraine where the medicine study plus accommodation will cost just around 20 lakhs. Not free but still cheaper than in India.

I disagree with you here in the sense that psychiatry is mostly quack science where the psychiatrist will look at the immediate symptoms of a sufferer like sleeplessness and will prescribe some chemicals but in the case of this suicided girl, Bhavya, will those chemicals cure the rot that is actually in the system and the girl is the victim of it ? The family of the sufferer will go along with the psychiatrist because the psychiatrist is supposed to be a doctor but the family won't realize that they themselves are part of the problem in bringing the societal wrongness down on the head of the sufferer every day. No, the schools don't require psychiatrists for at least this, the society requires intellectuals and revolutionaries.

And see how psychiatristic institutions are misused by families in India to oppress one of their members :

Some ? Most Indians are hence my agreement with you that India has not quite been an experimenter in technological, political and socio-economic ideas.

Age doesn't have anything to do with this. Nature anyway declared her adult years ago. If age was a factor in her deciding to suicide what about this 55-year-old engineer ?

India - Jobless engineer slits son's throat, takes poison with wife : Cops

Jobless Engineer Slits Son's Throat, Takes Poison With Wife: Cops Both the man (55) and his wife were in acute depression, according to a primary probe based on the latter's statements. Her statements also revealed that the couple had planned the entire episode nearly two to three days ago...

defence.pk

Sorry, what do you find hard to believe ?

Total agreement. I rebelled and rejected the system and I am happy with myself now though not with the political and socio-economic system that surrounds me.

I too failed and rejected the system and then was successful in a few things that most degree'd people have not been. Unfortunate that most students come under family and societal pressure and do not reject the ridiculous system.

Yes suicide is haraam in Islam but that didn't stop two young Muslim men from suiciding in Pakistan late last year from unemployment. Same happens in Gaza, Palestine. The problems are the existent wrong political and socio-economic systems. So instead of these students offing their lives why don't they overthrow the wrong system and punish those who had maintained it ? That would be something worthwhile than wasting what can turn out to be a contributing life.

1. You didn't blame that stupid dog for existing but you are victim-blaming this girl instead of blaming, yes the unscientific, non-contributing, non-empathetic and dog-eat-dog socio-economic system. Didn't you read my post previously that quoted NR Narayana Murthy's complaint against Indian academic system ? What next, will you blame the oppressed lower castes for existing ?

2. You say she was doing a mistake when the entire system surrounding her was the actual mistake !

3. OK you have been caught cheating but why didn't you rebel against the system and reject it like I did ?

1. So if a government does not provide a welfare system to its citizens like free housing, free basic food, free water, free healthcare, free education, free telecom etc what is the purpose of that government to exist ? Build religious statues and temples and build prime minister palaces and become one of the two largest importer of armaments in the world ?

2. No free cars and two-wheelers. In fact a total ban on them. Please read this thread of mine :

Making the case for a global ban on privately-owned personal transport cars and two-wheelers

I have often made this topic in posts so I thought why not create a thread for this for discussion and readership. Privately-owned personal transport vehicles ( cars and two-wheelers ) are I believe the biggest form of pollution in the world, directly through their usage and secondarily through...

defence.pk

3. In Communism the governance system doesn't steal from anyone. Stealing happens in Capitalism. For example, my money has been stolen by Modi to purchase those two new Boeing planes for himself that cost two billion dollars. My money has been stolen by Mukesh Ambani to build his two-billion-dollar 27-storey "house" in Bombay and to purchase his 168 cars. For Communism please read post# 13 and then post# 7.

You need not daily feed anyone or educate anyone or clothe anyone, you just need to participate in a revolution that will enable a system that will do that and keep running by itself. You only then on need to be a contributory part of society. But if you don't want to contribute to society and ignore the fact that the amenities you use come from other people's contribution then you can go away to some ashram in the Himalayas and live a sanyasi life.

Don't get too clever. Those Pakistanis who committed suicide due to unemployment have committed a major sin in Islam.

Just because you are hiding behind a computer screen does not mean you can say crap and get away with it.

Sharma Ji · Mar 18, 2022

jamahir said:
1. You didn't blame that stupid dog for existing but you are victim-blaming this girl instead of blaming, yes the unscientific, non-contributing, non-empathetic and dog-eat-dog socio-economic system. Didn't you read my post previously that quoted NR Narayana Murthy's complaint against Indian academic system ? What next, will you blame the oppressed lower castes for existing ?

2. You say she was doing a mistake when the entire system surrounding her was the actual mistake !

3. OK you have been caught cheating but why didn't you rebel against the system and reject it like I did ?

I'm not 'victim blaming' anyone. What she did was stupid because she has now, quite presumably, made a lot of people miserable, some will probably never get over it. Apart from being a tragedy, suicide is also bad and selfish. I like how Islam condemns it, I also like how in our dharmic tradition it means bad karma and you'll come straight back but in much worse circumstances than the ones in which said person 'left'. Killing yourself is just as bad as killing another.

Life isn't a bed of roses.

I'm pretty far removed from the system, just take my word for it lol

jamahir said:
1. So if a government does not provide a welfare system to its citizens like free housing, free basic food, free water, free healthcare, free education, free telecom etc what is the purpose of that government to exist ? Build religious statues and temples and build prime minister palaces and become one of the two largest importer of armaments in the world ?

Among many others, the purpose of government is to serve the people and create an environment where they can earn a living and take care of their own needs. Personally, I don't care for religious stuff but society at large does, it is the will of the people. If one day the majority of people decide they want free things, they will elect a government who does that. I will not help vote such a person or party to power. You, however, are free to vote for them. Besides, here in India, they already provide a lot of facilities for free or basically free to a lot of people. There's AIIMS, there are a lot of yojanas/schemes and more. They are doing what they can given the resources available to put toward those causes.

This is also not a very friendly neighbourhood, so resources must be diverted to defence. I like how the Modi admin wants to be 'atmanirbhar', but until we truly are, we're forced to buy.

jamahir said:
2. No free cars and two-wheelers. In fact a total ban on them. Please read this thread of mine :

no, I value my freedom to move about as I wish a bit too much, so this idea of yours gets the ol'

jamahir said:
3. In Communism the governance system doesn't steal from anyone. Stealing happens in Capitalism. For example, my money has been stolen by Modi to purchase those two new Boeing planes for himself that cost two billion dollars. My money has been stolen by Mukesh Ambani to build his two-billion-dollar 27-storey "house" in Bombay and to purchase his 168 cars. For Communism please read post# 13 and then post# 7.

Its a feedback loop of sorts, we the people, via taxation, put money in government coffers.. and they put it to good use for the common good. To have secure transport befitting of the heads of state is money put to good use imo. If in the future the country elects a Raul Ghandy or even a Yechury, for example, they too will then deserve to be flown around in those planes and be afforded those 'luxuries'

jamahir said:
You need not daily feed anyone or educate anyone or clothe anyone, you just need to participate in a revolution that will enable a system that will do that and keep running by itself. You only then on need to be a contributory part of society. But if you don't want to contribute to society and ignore the fact that the amenities you use come from other people's contribution then you can go away to some ashram in the Himalayas and live a sanyasi life.

but I already contribute, I pay my taxes and do not complain. Do you ?

India - Yet another Indian student suicides because of an exam

Caught copying in exam, college girl jumps to death in Bengaluru​

The parents said Bhavya ended her life as the college had debarred her​

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Caught copying in exam, college girl jumps to death in Bengaluru

The parents said Bhavya ended her life as the college had debarred her