India warns Israel, Russia to meet deadlines or lose defence orders

[paritosh]

Jeez you guys just can't read between the lines can you? I imagine all these difficulties would be ironed out as soon as the MRCA deal goes through with a Russian aircraft. Otherwise......India had the upper hand when Russia was in a bad state with poor cash flow. However the Dynamic has changed Imagine the problems if the engines for your MKI get diverted to china who is willing to pay? I magine if Russia decides to send the Gorshkov to China? I could go on and on. If the money does not go their way I am sure the Russian would fnd nice market elsewhere for their products. (I am sure the PAF would love to look at the BARS radars for example...)

the answer is future financial security.
doing what youve suggested would be killing the hen that laid the golden eggs...china would be more than happy to benefit fron such re-routed deals...the ruskies might get paid 2x....but considering the ichinese pursuit of self-sufficiency...they'd have to wait long and dry for such a deal to come again their way.
india pays on time...goes for deals of gigantic proportions...the ruskies wouldn't risk that...and certainly when they know that others would love to fill that spot.

 

[maverick2009]

In Reply to Keyserose

For DACT training surely PAF should already be engaging Chinease PLAAF flankers. After all The PLAAF have 250+ flankers already.

Even to buy 1 sdq of 18 flankers will cost upwards of 800million $$ ...

Infact i,m astonished that PAF have not already carried out these excercises.

Look at IAF as soon as the first flankers arrived the indians have had regular engagements with F16s from USA & Singopore.

Infact i wouldn,t be surprised if iaf flanker pilots have flown with and against Israeli F16 sufi already too.

 

[Keysersoze]

In Reply to Keyserose

For DACT training surely PAF should already be engaging Chinease PLAAF flankers. After all The PLAAF have 250+ flankers already.

Even to buy 1 sdq of 18 flankers will cost upwards of 800million $$ ...

Infact i,m astonished that PAF have not already carried out these excercises.

Look at IAF as soon as the first flankers arrived the indians have had regular engagements with F16s from USA & Singopore.

Infact i wouldn,t be surprised if iaf flanker pilots have flown with and against Israeli F16 sufi already too.

Actually it has already happened. I don't know how much is commonly known but I wouldn't worry about it PAf pilots are pretty well trained against most types of aircraft and DACT against that type has already been conducted.

 

[Keysersoze]

Oh and sqaudron sizes are flexible you don't need to go the full hog and buy 18 fully kitted aircraft. you just need 8 or so. it would be funny though. thats why I love the MRCA contract, its gonna piss someone off and that means PAK can clean up after

 

[maverick2009]

PAF can clean up today. ????????????

Nobody is stopping PAF buying Typhoon Rafale even SU30/35.

its all about the ability to pay..

 

[Gucci Juice]

keysersoze...

its like this

say someone loses mrca contract 10 billion, and they cry over it and decide to sell to u guys.

then they get pissed and for the rest of the 90 billion to be spent the next decade that country will not win.

so basically if u lose the mrca contract and piss people off u will lose a slice of that 90 billion over 10 years. but if u lose it and dont cry u still have a chance of that 90 billion.

and russia will still be #1 or #2 for at least 10 years.

meaning that even if they lose the mrca contract they still have a chance at 20-30 billion dollars in deals (the other 60-70 billion can go to USA, Israel, EU, etc...)

i think the next submarine contract is headed their way since the Germans sold the U-212 to u guys. they already have French subs so there is only 1 option left.

basically they can lose the mrca and then sell to u guys and lose even more

or they can lose it and not sell to u guys and get 20-30 billion in contracts (compared to ur 5 billion in contracts).

see where i'm coming from?

and for the proof of 100 billion just go to BBC news and click on the aewacs story.

 

[King Julien]

Jeez you guys just can't read between the lines can you? I imagine all these difficulties would be ironed out as soon as the MRCA deal goes through with a Russian aircraft. Otherwise......India had the upper hand when Russia was in a bad state with poor cash flow. However the Dynamic has changed Imagine the problems if the engines for your MKI get diverted to china who is willing to pay? I magine if Russia decides to send the Gorshkov to China? I could go on and on. If the money does not go their way I am sure the Russian would fnd nice market elsewhere for their products. (I am sure the PAF would love to look at the BARS radars for example...)

1) MRCA is a tender
2) IAF isn't tossing a coin to decide the winner
3) all the bulls involved are gonna make big holes in their pocket by participating in this; So they are really gonna squeeze our neck and ask about the evaluation

 

[Contrarian]

Yes but when Russia was economically weak you guys tried to get bargains and frankly get away with murder because you were in a stronger position (The carrier deal is a example of this). Now with Russia in a better place you are getting the other end of the stick so to speak.

Depends, India no longer needs to buy equipment from Russia as is. Those days are long gone. Our own capabilities have developed such that now we either collaborate with Russia for equipment or we shop from West or Israel.

This is probably the last Carrier, India is purchasing from abroad. The Indigenous carrier is already under construction. 2 more are planned.

The only places where Russians would still have bargaining chips would be strategic systems, like N-Subs and the like. There too, we are progressing. In suspect in the next 10 years, we would have completely bypassed the buyer seller relationship. This type of relationship already seems to be comming to an end.

 

[Contrarian]

Jeez you guys just can't read between the lines can you? I imagine all these difficulties would be ironed out as soon as the MRCA deal goes through with a Russian aircraft. Otherwise......India had the upper hand when Russia was in a bad state with poor cash flow. However the Dynamic has changed Imagine the problems if the engines for your MKI get diverted to china who is willing to pay? I magine if Russia decides to send the Gorshkov to China? I could go on and on. If the money does not go their way I am sure the Russian would fnd nice market elsewhere for their products. (I am sure the PAF would love to look at the BARS radars for example...)

Its not an all or nothing relationship. MRCA doesnt have to go to the Russians and frankly, odds are that it will not go to Russia. Neither will Russia take any such step that would willfully damage relations with India like selling a batch of radars to Pakistan. That would imply a complete cessation of defence relations between the two countries. Money is money and politics is politics, and in both the cases, India has good cards.

Secondly about escalation of prices, most of it is actually justified, the escalation for price of planes for ex because of changes in rouble/dollar, they were more than justified. As regards to Gorshy, it was indeed a failure of analysis of the Russians. One from which both India and Russia have learned lessons. It is not likely to be repeated.

Lastly, delay with Russian equipment has a LOT to do with many of the production factories/plants being in ex Soviet states, and Russia not being able to keep its defence sector in healthy shape. Again, its not deliberate.

 

[blain2]

PAF can clean up today. ????????????

Nobody is stopping PAF buying Typhoon Rafale even SU30/35.

its all about the ability to pay..

Su30/25 are cheaper than the F-16 blk52s that PAF is paying for. This is the sole reason that India has been able to consider buying upwards of 230 MKIs. They are essentially going for about $30-40 million per copy.

As far as Rafale or Typhoon are considered, the former is a type that nobody wants because nobody aside from ADlA is flying it. The second one is too expensive for most (even India).

 

[blain2]

In suspect in the next 10 years, we would have completely bypassed the buyer seller relationship. This type of relationship already seems to be comming to an end.

You are way too optimistic. Approx. 80% of the equipment in use by the Indian Armed Forces is of Soviet/Russian origin. $50 billion over next 30 years is not enough to upgrade all of that. Secondly, you are not getting away from a buyer-seller relationship. All you are doing is diversifying sellers. Instead of all Russia, now you have other suppliers, but be mindful that unlike Russia, the western equipment is more expensive and you can only do so much to upgrade. I have said this in other threads too, China with a comparable size of military is spending approximately 2 time each year what you are planning on spending over the next 25 years (the $50 billion that you plan to spend is dwarfed by their close to $100 billion military budget - a number that US DoD and intelligence community believes China is spending) and even then the Chinese have a long way to go.

So think along these lines. Secondly, you will be more prone to restrictive behaviour with the West owing to their holier than thou stances. So all in all, this buyer-seller relationship will continue for India over the next decade or two but in a more diversified manner.

 

[Always Neutral]

Well the article warns even Israel so its just a mark of professionalism on part of GOI that contracts should be honored.

Regards

 

[sancho]

You are way too optimistic. Approx. 80% of the equipment in use by the Indian Armed Forces is of Soviet/Russian origin. $50 billion over next 30 years is not enough to upgrade all of that. Secondly, you are not getting away from a buyer-seller relationship. All you are doing is diversifying sellers. Instead of all Russia, now you have other suppliers, but be mindful that unlike Russia, the western equipment is more expensive and you can only do so much to upgrade.

I can't agree cause even the buyer-seller relationship with Russia has changed Su30 Mki, FGFA, MTA, Brahmos all co-developments. France is offering Rafale and pointed out that they will go beyond a buyer-seller relation ship in what they offer. EF 2000 is already offered with a full partnership which was not offered to anybody else yet.
Also you have to understand how the buyer seller-relationship has changed for India now. The main difference that we are dictating what we want and under what kind of circumstances. Think of all the competitions that are runing now and there are not many "buyer" in the world that can demand a lot of ToT and 50% economic offset and still all companies are fighting to provide it. Some years ago the choices was less and we had to get what they want to give us.
Also the 80% of Russian equipment will be reduced rapidly! Huge number of Migs that will surely replaced by western MMRCA and Indian LCA, Mi 35 attack helicopter motst probably by US Apache, Tu 142 and IL 38 maritime patrole aircrafts by western, Kamov ASW by NH90, or AE 101, Mi 17 Vip by AE 101, Mi 26 probably by CH 47 Chinook and the list goes on. The dependece will clearly be reduced and specially with european partners there are chances for several jv.

In case of China, of course they have specially a quantitative advantage, but they have not that kind of access to all markets and tech (Russian, US/Israeli, European) like we have. That's why qualitatively (AWACS, Spy sat, AESA radar fighters, 5. gen fighter development, ATV) we are catching up more than fast.

 

[maverick2009]

I think the other fact blain has forgotten completely is just how rapidly India Military budget is rising.

Despuite being only 2.5% of the GDP india current miliary budget is $30 billion. By 2020 it will be around $60 billion and comparable by then to France & UK.

With regards to India needing China type investment plan thats way off mark we are a far smaller military power.

PLAAF has 1500 obselete war planes to replace IAF needs to replace 600

PLN operates with 40 subs Indian Navy 16 subs

PLA has over 2 million men & 10000 tanks Indian army has half that..

China has over 500 nuke war heads india has barely 100 warheads.

China spends officially $60billion india spends $30 billion.

 

[Screaming Skull]

Russia yields after Antony burst​

New Delhi, June 4: Upset with an India that is increasingly turning westwards to source its military hardware, Russia has promised to scale down the prices it has demanded and has come up with assurances of steadier supplies.

Indian defence secretary Vijay Singh returned this morning from Moscow where he led a team of officials to a meeting of the India-Russia High-Level Monitoring Committee. The Russian side was led by the Director-General of Military Services, Dimitriev.

Russia is by far the largest supplier of military equipment to India, and nearly 65 per cent of the Indian armed forces’ hardware is of Russian or Soviet origin. Annual military purchases from Russia total between Rs 15,000 crore and Rs 20,000 crore. India is Russia’s largest buyer.

The Russian assurances come after an outburst by defence minister A.K. Antony last week at a public ceremony in the presence of the Russian ambassador. The defence minister expressed his “anguish” at the frequent delays in the delivery of hardware.

“There is now an awareness in Russian industry of the competition they have to face (in India),” a senior defence ministry official said here today. He said there was an acknowledgement in the discussions that there were “bottlenecks and delays”.

Russia indicated that it was willing to look at a downward revision of the price that it had demanded for the aircraft carrier, the Admiral Gorshkov.

Russia had demanded an additional $2 billion for refurbishing the carrier after the vessel was contracted by India in 2004 for $964 million. India was willing to pay a total of $2.2 billion but Moscow kept insisting on a total of $ 2.9 billion.

In the latest round of meetings, however, Moscow has indicated it is willing to compromise, senior officials said. A firm price will be contracted again by July.

Last week, India paid up another $102 million for the carrier. So far, it has paid a total of $602 million.

The delivery of the carrier, being negotiated since 1997, has also been delayed. “It is floating,” an official said, to indicate that work has progressed enough. The carrier is not likely to be with the Indian Navy before the end of 2012.

The Russians were upset that the Indian Air Force had chosen Airbus’s MRTT refueller aircraft over the Russian IL-78, the senior official said. The Indian government has not yet decided the choice of refueller.

The IAF’s mid-air refueller squadron is currently made up of Russian IL-78 aircraft but air headquarters has preferred the Airbus in trials.

“Whatever decision is taken (on which refueller to buy) will be taken on sound commercial and technical grounds,” the senior defence official said. To override the Indian Air Force’s choice, however, would be difficult.

The official said the talks related to product support, supply of spares for old equipment, upgrade of MiG-29s with the IAF and transfer of technology for the T-90 tanks for the Indian Army.

The Telegraph - Calcutta (Kolkata) | Nation | Russia yields after Antony burst