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India vs Pakistan - Evaluation on Military Strengths

How many scorpenes does india have right now?
Most of indian subs are obsolete.

But 7 NEW SUBS U-214,MARLYENE and others are there for the taking...
3-4_(Not sure abt number)AIP MESMA AGOSTA-90Bs(only AI MESMA sub in S.A)
3-Upgraded AGOSTA-70Bs?

About F-INSAS....its still uner development and like Insas rifle i dont have any big expectations frm it.

dude havent you been following u214 thread, its almost OVER.
the small qualitative advantage that PN has in terms of subs will be nullified post 2014 with scorpene (and hopefully u214).
and i am not even bringing the boomers into equation.
 
dude havent you been following u214 thread, its almost OVER.the small qualitative advantage that PN has in terms of subs will be nullified post 2014 with scorpene (and hopefully u214).
and i am not even bringing the boomers into equation.

Not over yet..... isnt it true 7 subs will still be coming?
Wat abt arty?
army aviation?
etc
 
indian pilots are well trained??? based on what?? SU-30 is not a dog fighter neither India has notable claims in dog fighting!!

" IAF can stand toe-to-toe with best AF in the world. I pity the pilot who has to face the IAF and chances the day to underestimate him; because he won’t be going home"

This is what Col Greg Newbech, USAF Team Leader told about the IAF pilots during a joint excercise.
 
Nuke for a Nuke

/thread

---------- Post added at 07:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:28 AM ----------

Ohh I forgot Military Strength USA, USA, USA!!!!!!!!
 
land and the naval border india need to look after is huge ,so the size of navy army or air force is also big, not a big deal unless in future war china factor does not impact the deployement of indian military inventory .
 
" IAF can stand toe-to-toe with best AF in the world. I pity the pilot who has to face the IAF and chances the day to underestimate him; because he won’t be going home"

This is what Col Greg Newbech, USAF Team Leader told about the IAF pilots during a joint excercise.

And then there was that infamous video about the MKI's performance in the initial combat with F-16's and F-15's at mountain home AFB.

The results of Cope India have been debated all over the place..
and yes.. that was designed to show the IAF's performance against the PAF..
And somebozo.. the Su-30 is a very capable dogfighter..
please don't believe all the article says..the part about training and war records is all hogwash.
Since pilot training is one area the IAF has only recently improved..not their fault since they lacked capable trainers.
But as it stands today.. IAF pilots can be counted on to be as professional at their job as ours.. unlike us.. India records its history.. and learns its lessons... the IAF in 71 was much more effective than in 65.. a mere 6 years and they were 5 times as effective...they learned.. and adapted.
its been almost 40 years now...
If one was to rate pilot training..combat ..both the IAF and PAF stand out in the top ten when it comes to air combat.
The differences with the west were in the use of technology.. and the IAF is progressing faster than us in that area(simply because we are limited by resources).
Had we the billions of dollars in Forex.. glitzy glamor and no nutjobs with pan-Islamic "boom boom" ambitions.. we might have been a match for India still.
 
And then there was that infamous video about the MKI's performance in the initial combat with F-16's and F-15's at mountain home AFB.

The results of Cope India have been debated all over the place..
and yes.. that was designed to show the IAF's performance against the PAF..
And somebozo.. the Su-30 is a very capable dogfighter..
please don't believe all the article says..the part about training and war records is all hogwash.
Since pilot training is one area the IAF has only recently improved..not their fault since they lacked capable trainers.
But as it stands today.. IAF pilots can be counted on to be as professional at their job as ours.. unlike us.. India records its history.. and learns its lessons... the IAF in 71 was much more effective than in 65.. a mere 6 years and they were 5 times as effective...they learned.. and adapted.
its been almost 40 years now...
If one was to rate pilot training..combat ..both the IAF and PAF stand out in the top ten when it comes to air combat.
The differences with the west were in the use of technology.. and the IAF is progressing faster than us in that area(simply because we are limited by resources).
Had we the billions of dollars in Forex.. glitzy glamor and no nutjobs with pan-Islamic "boom boom" ambitions.. we might have been a match for India still.

Bingo...On the Dot. :cheers:
 
There is a differece between the training of PAF pilots and IAF pilots

The difference is in the training system. PAF has always had a dedicated fighter trainer. Pilots in the PAF after being trained on props go to the T-37 or K-8 dedicated fighter trainer. They then convert to fighters and then to operations.

The IAF on the other hand sends its pilots directly from props to fighters. This is a quantum leap. Many young Indian pilots have lost their lives because India does not have dedicated fighter trainers. Just look at the accident record of IAF it is far worse when compared with PAF.The request for dedicated Indian fighter trainers has often run into snags because of Indian politicians.

That is the difference In Pakistan the government listens to the armed forces in India the armed forces listen to the government
 
Background: India achieved its independence from imperial Britain in 1947, after which it was divided into two countries - India and Pakistan, as per the Mountbatten Plan. After this partition, Pakistan chose to be an Islamic republic, aligned with United States while India chose to remain politically neutral, as a secular socialist democracy. These choices turned out to the the turning points in the political and military future of both these countries.



Please note that what follows is not an evaluation of military power in combat situations, but a brief review of quantitative military balance, based on currently available manpower, equipments, infrastructure, command and strategy. Future military plans and projects are not discussed due to uncertain and volatile nature of such plans, often subject to cancellation, failure or modification. (For example, the Indian Agni 3 missile is not under consideration, as it is still under development and testing stage.)

Military Budgets and Economic Impact

Pakistan’s defence budget for the year 2006-07 was $4.1 billion (~3% of GDP) in response to India’s hike in defence budget of 2006-07 at $20.11 billion (~ 2.5% of GDP). Pakistan’s hike in military budget would be partially funded by its government coffers and partially by borrowing whereas India’s military spending would be entirely off its own funds. India’s ambitious budget prompted Pakistan to up its own military budget, despite the country’s widespread poverty and socio-political problems. Apart from its GDP, Pakistani military also gets a considerable funding from United States. Considering that India has a far larger economy overall, its military budget is also several times larger, despite being a smaller share of India’s GDP.

Manpower and Ground Forces

As of 2005, India has the second largest military manpower in the world - at 3,773,300 personell, next only to China. Pakistan’s manpower of 1,449,000 personell, although smaller in numbers, is proportionally higher than India in terms of their population ratios. Pakistan’s ground forces are equipped with American or Chinese weapons like FIM 92 Stinger SAMs, BGM-71 TOW anti-tank missiles, T-82 tanks and other equipments. Indian ground forces are equipped with mostly home-made and Soviet technologies like IR guided 9K35 Strela-10 SAMs, 3rd Gen IR guided Nag anti-tank missiles, UAVs and a large inventory of tanks and support vehicles. In terms of both numbers and equipments, Indian military dominates the Pakistani ground forces.



Comparison of Air Forces

As of 2006, Indian Air Force (IAF) has over 170,000 personnel and 3,382 aircrafts, of which 1,330 are combat aircrafts operating off 61 airbases - making it the fourth largest air force in the world. India’s strike fighters consist of Russian and French aircrafts like Mikoyan MiG-29, Dassault Mirage 2000, Sukhoi Su-30 - the last one developed under dual licensing by HAL, India’s aerospace industry in Bangalore. In addition to these, Indian Air Force also owns ground attack aircrafts, reconnaissance aircrafts, UAVs and support helicopters - a majority of them either of Soviet or French origin. Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has about 530 combat aircrafts and 65,000 active personnel, operating out of 9 airbases. Its strike fighters consist of US, Chinese and ageing French fighters like F-16 Fighting Falcon, JF-17 Thunder and Dassault Mirage ROSE-III. It also has transport aircrafts like Lockheed Martin C-130 and Airbus A310, however unlike India, there are no UAVs or reconnaissance aircrafts in the Pakistani Air Force.



Naval and Sea Based Forces

After the overwhelming losses in the 1971 war against India, Pakistan rapidly increased the size of its naval fleet which doubled in the 1980s after a massive 3.2 billion dollar military and economic aid by US President Ronald Reagan. At present, Pakistan’s navy owns over 45 vessels , most of them of US or European origin which include submarines, destroyers, frigates, patrol and mine warfare boats. It operates from its sole naval port in Karachi and sometimes from naval facilities in UK, USA and France. It had recently been involved in various humanitarian operations during the 2005 Tsunami in South East Asia. Indian Navy on the other hand, is a three dimensional naval force consisting of missile-capable warships, an aircraft carrier, mine sweepers and a host of marine aircrafts. Most of the warships in the Indian navy are indigenously built in its own dockyards. The navy operates from its major naval bases in Visakhapatnam, Mumbai, Goa and the Andaman Islands. Indian Navy has significant capabilities of being a true blue water Navy and is experienced both in war and peacekeeping operations in the Indian Ocean.



The Nuclear Club

India tested a nuclear bomb in 1974 using materials from Canada and technical help from Soviet Union. However, the embargo on heavy water export from Canada after the test stalled India’s nuclear ambitions till 1998, when it shocked the world by conducting five nuclear detonations termed as Shakti tests. The highest yield was by a 48 kiloton staged fusion device, which India claimed was a thermonuclear bomb but seismic data on the tests proved otherwise. In the same year 1998, Pakistan conducted a series of six nuclear detonations in a test termed as Chagai. The highest yield was reported to be about 25 kiloton from a two stage boosted device. At present Pakistan’s nuclear stockpile is slated to be around 30-40 warheads while India possesses 70-100 warheads. The nuclearisation of India and Pakistan became a turning point in the history of conflicts between these two countries with high tensions but no war, not very much unlike the US vs USSR Cold War.



Ballistic and Cruise Missile Proliferation

In the nuclear delivery front, both India and Pakistan have a series of ballistic and cruise missiles in addition to ground attack aircrafts. The maximum range among India’s operational ballistic missiles is 2000 km achieved by Agni-2. India’s Agni ballistic missiles are indigenously developed by its own missile defence industry known as IGMDP. The maximum range among Pakistan’s missiles is by Hatf V Gauri which is reported to do over 2200 kms. Pakistan’s Hatf missiles are based on North Korean No-Dong series of IRBMs. Both Pakistan’s Hatf and India’s Agni ballistic missiles are nuclear capable. India has also developed a supersonic cruise missile BrahMos which is by far the fastest cruise missile at Mach 2.6 and maximum range of 290 km. It is reported to be nuclear capable but it is not confirmed yet. On the Pakistan side, its Babur cruise missile has a reported range of 700 km and a maximum speed of 880 km/h (Mach 0.7). As with India BrahMos, Babur is also reported to be nuclear capable but there is no confirmation yet.



The Final Verdict

Both Pakistan and India are almost evenly matched head to head in nuclear and missile fronts, however India has strategic and technological superiority over the conventional forces of Pakistan. Indian Navy is larger in fleet and personnel size with a more varied range of ships including an aircraft carrier while Pakistan’s Navy is smaller and has no aircraft carriers. Indian’s IAF is equipped with highly capable fighters like 4.5th generation Su-30s and 4th gen Mirage 2000s which are technologically superior to Pakistan PAF’s F-16s and Mirage IIIs.[/QUOTE] Additionally Indian pilots are better trained and more capable in air combat than Pakistani forces as was demonstrated by its various wars with Pakistan or joint exercises with US and UK.[/QUOTE]rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:: In the area of conventional ground forces both the Indian as well as Pakistani Army is well equipped and highly trained to survive in extremities of topography and climate in combat conditions, like wars in the high Himalayas.



If a purely conventional war were to take place between both these countries, India would most likely overpower Pakistan owing to its superior military technology and infrastructure, larger manpower, more territorial area and a strategic advantage in its sea and air forces. It must also be noted that a war between these two countries will matter more than India’s conventional superiority as both these nations are nuclear powers on an equal deadlock. India has maintained a ‘no first use’ nuclear policy in the lines of a similar policy by China while Pakistan does not have any such policy, considering their only hope against India is in nuclear deterrance. It would be risky for India at the present scenario to go into any aggressive war against Pakistan as the repercussions would be serious a nuclear devastation for both countries.

SOMEBODY PLEASE KILL ME:lol:
 
You know.. I am not sure how to weigh the pro's and con's of the bold statement..

And with the phase out of the T-37's.. by the PAF's own admission.. there will be a sudden leap for pilots from the 150 knot bracket to the 300 knot bracket.
India is currently evaluating a fast prop trainer.. and buying the hawk.
Each with overlapping abilities.
 
There is a differece between the training of PAF pilots and IAF pilots

The difference is in the training system. PAF has always had a dedicated fighter trainer. Pilots in the PAF after being trained on props go to the T-37 or K-8 dedicated fighter trainer. They then convert to fighters and then to operations.

The IAF on the other hand sends its pilots directly from props to fighters. This is a quantum leap. Many young Indian pilots have lost their lives because India does not have dedicated fighter trainers. Just look at the accident record of IAF it is far worse when compared with PAF.The request for dedicated Indian fighter trainers has often run into snags because of Indian politicians.

That is the difference In Pakistan the government listens to the armed forces in India the armed forces listen to the government

All your points are valid.

But this difference because,

That is the difference In Pakistan the government listens to the armed forces in India the armed forces listen to the government

Pakistan was ruled by Army around 50% of the years since its independence and always in power, where as India, it is always democratic and politicians behave such a way. but, we are changing..now bought trainers etc and buying the best equipments only after checking its worth.
 
It not necessary if they players are good, you have an upper hand

At some point we have an advantage and at some India have an advantage

so sit tight, only war can decide who is better
 
You know.. I am not sure how to weigh the pro's and con's of the bold statement..

And with the phase out of the T-37's.. by the PAF's own admission.. there will be a sudden leap for pilots from the 150 knot bracket to the 300 knot bracket.
India is currently evaluating a fast prop trainer.. and buying the hawk.
Each with overlapping abilities.

The bold statement was both a bold statement and the truth.

As far as phasing out of T-37s is concerned , they shall be replaced by the K-8 dedicated fighter trainer. PAF has always given importance to the dedicated fighter trainer. One area where PAF completely outclasses IAF is Flight Safety.
 
I think it's useful to look at the size of the respective economies and I think it allows us to think of a military equation in more realistic terms.
 

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