India training terrorists to strike in Pakistan

[S-2]

"Probably referring to the Panjsheris and Uzbek warlords that are/have been part of the Karzai government."

Probably. Should Rahman be believed or is it possible that he recognizes an opportunity to be meddlesome here by flying a false flag?

"They accepted aid from the 'infidel' US, why not India? They are a pragmatic lot - 'the enemy of my enemy ...' exactly."

When did Nek Mohammad, Faizullah, Sufi Mohammad, or Baitullah Mehsud accept aid from America? Are you confusing the Afghan-Soviet war with the Taliban Government of Afghanistan's war against the N.A.? If so, you'd know that the C.I.A. (PRC, Great Britain, France, W. Germany and others) packaged all aid and weapons through your ISI. The ISI would have it no other way. Can you show otherwise?

"The defense ministers complete comments have been posted, and they are a jumbled mess, in which right after he allegedly confirms the Quetta Shura he then denies that the American allegations about the Quetta Shura are correct. You want to hang your hat on that nonsense, that is your prerogative, but again indicates the depths to which you have sunk, clutching at straws."

First, I haven't sunk to support of proxies but why is it that your ministry officials can't issue a clarification? If they have (and I haven't seen it), why haven't YOU provided such?

"The arrest of Baradar comes about in significantly changed dynamics - operations in Swat, SW, Bajaur, Mohmand, Khyber, Orakzai .. and a resulting 'squeeze' on the Taliban, both in Pakistan and in Afghanistan."

Whatever the dynamics, Baradar is in the land the rest of us always have believed him to be. I'm not the first nor the most notable (by far) to make this point. That he is arrested is commendable but beside the point. The issue is whether he conducted taliban operations from your lands and everybody but you seems to believe he did. The burden of proof resides with you here.

"Perhaps you should try to kill a Qari Ziaur Rehman operating out of territory under ISAF control..."

I see you agree in your own special way that Haqqani IS on your lands and has been. I take that as an admission. Red herrings usually are and you are a young master of dissemblance, to be sure.

Konar and Nuristan are a contested battlefield and have been since 2002. It is why we are there. The land is surely NOT stable lest there'd be no mission of stabilization. It is all the more less stable for Rahman's abilities to slip back into Pakistani sanctuary where you once held him captive but released him. It was only after his release he became the afghan taliban commander in Konar.

"...that certain Taliban groups operate out of Pakistani territory where the GoP has not yet completely established its writ."

Are you comparing conditions in pre-historical, archaic, war-ridden Afghanistan with a country existing more than sixty years and possessing the world's seventh largest army? Establishing your writ? If you haven't then your lands are ungoverned and lawless thus justifying all the more PREDATOR for our self-defense. Is not Miram Shah a capital for N. Waziristan?

Talat Masood suggests you'd rather not fight those forces now. Clearly you haven't for the last eight years either. Here are Masood's words-

"It is generally believed that there is a tacit understanding that the Pakistan Army will not launch an operation if the tribes and militant groups stay neutral while operations against the Mahsud tribes and stabilization efforts continue in South Waziristan."

David Rohde stated the same from his experiences with the Haqqanis' and his kidnapping was well before Swat, Buner, or S. Waziristan. Criminal, if so.

"I have no qualms with using particular language to describe Pakistani 'minions' so long as similar language is also used to describe the US and its 'minions', past and present."

Rahman is our enemy. We do battle in Konar and attempt killing him daily. You cede lands by tacit agreement to the Haqqanis and pose no threat whatsoever to the afghan taliban. Any taliban in Afghanistan lives under threat of immediate death. Not so for those afghan taliban commanders in SANCTUARYville were it not for PREDATOR.

You seem incapable of understanding that salient difference. Or unwilling.

Call me what you wish but defensiveness on this issue makes your attempts at dissemblance weak and transparent to any not Pakistani. That you play to the home crowd here is your saving grace. Elsewhere you know what the reception to such "poppycock" would be. That's why you no longer wander beyond the friendly confines and, instead, indulge sanctuary.

Should be familiar.

The smart thing would be to say,

"Yeah, it sure looks like they're here and have been. We need to get rid of them for our immediate sake, our sovereignty, and to assist stabilizing Afghanistan so you guys can get home and we can get on with our lives. We need to do so as soon as possible. Meanwhile, keep killing them as best you can and we'll do the same."

End of story and both of us could move on to more productive discussion. That would be a good thing.

Thanks.

 

[karan.1970]

Since the lack of credible evidence on the part of the US and India (that I have seen) has not prevented their government and military officials from barking and maligning Pakistan, I fail to see why Pakistan alone should be held to that standard and asked to stop highlighting the role of those it sees as sponsoring terrorism on her soil.

A rather blatant double standard on the part of Indians and Americans.

To quote a favourite line used here.. Apples and Oranges

To begin with, really any proof will do... The problem is that none has been shared till date except with the inner sources of ISI and army.

Lots of difference between proof not accepted as legally binding (pakistan's reaction to proofs india provides) and no proof at all..

 

[Bang Galore]

Since the lack of credible evidence on the part of the US and India (that I have seen) has not prevented their government and military officials from barking and maligning Pakistan, I fail to see why Pakistan alone should be held to that standard and asked to stop highlighting the role of those it sees as sponsoring terrorism on her soil.

A rather blatant double standard on the part of Indians and Americans.

Double standards ?? Kind of rich don't you think coming from a country that denied Kasab was a Pakistani even after being exposed on Pakistani television. There are people here who keep insisting that everything is a sinister Indian/Israeli/American conspiracy and that proof provided at the U.N. against JuD which was enough to satisfy all the countries including China didn't somehow match Pakistan's exacting standards which btw seems to never be a problem when the Americans want someone to be handed over.
You then expect that proof merely claimed but never produced to be accepted merely because you say it to be so ?
Wake up and smell the coffee, pal.

 

[S-2]

"...btw seems to never be a problem when the Americans want someone to be handed over."

We're not getting everybody we'd like nor, necessarily, even the access. Witness our limited access to Baradar now. We may with him in time should he not be charged in Pakistan and returned to Afghan jurisdiction. That's not assured either. If he isn't returned, we may have no more access than to date.

Your point is sound but not fully accurate-at least WRT America.

Thanks.

 

[jarnee]

Finally RAW has come at par with ISI.

But remember ISI is 10 yrs ahead in this game , but where it will miss out will be maybe drying up "drug money" & "Fake currency stuff.. Raw i dont know where will they get money for covert ops.??

 

[SEAL]

This news suggests that all RAW previous strategies ends in a failure and now they have to trained another 100 agents.

 

[Kavin]

Actually Indian covert operations have a long history - you forget the support for terrorists and separatists through the sixties and into 1971 in East Pakistan by India.

In your words..

A struggle for freedom from occupation is not terrorism

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strategic-geopolitical-issues/23916-fierce-gun-fight-rages-kashmir-3.html#post335518

There was also the creation and support of the LTTE by India, which turned into arguable the world's deadliest terrorist organization.

Agreed. Tamils were oppressed and India supported LTTE until they turn too tough.

Black July - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Indian intervention in the Sri Lankan Civil War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And of course the support for the Northern Alliance against the Taliban, and the history of support for the Baluch separatists and terrorists.

India has Bengal and Tamil connections and there were some reason to support Mukti Bahini and Tamil Separatists. But what's the use of supporting Baluch separatists?

India has quite a few achievements under its belt, don't be modest.

India is going to achieve NOTHING by supporting Pakistani terrorists. India wants stable Pakistan: Krishna

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

So now do you want me to quote Pakistani involvement in Kashmir, The Khalistan movement, Afghanistan, The Maoist movement, North Eastern Separatist movement etc etc. A coin always has 2 sides to it. maybe we both require some education on that. Still solid proof is not there my friend, videos and analysis count for nothing on the world front. The fact is that India and Pakistan will continue to blame each other for each other problems until we change our point of views individually.

Do some of you even bother to read the entire conversation and understand the context in which comments were made?

What do you think this comment of MilesToGo meant?

'Finally RAW has come at par with ISI.'

By the way, you can blame the Chinese for your North Eastern movements. I don't believe even Chidambaram has accused Pakistan of supporting the recent violence in the North Eastern States.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

To quote a favourite line used here.. Apples and Oranges

Why is demanding proof to substantiate US and Indian allegations 'apples' and similar demands of proof from India 'oranges'.

To begin with, really any proof will do... The problem is that none has been shared till date except with the inner sources of ISI and army.

And none has been provided by either the Indians or Americans 'except with inner sources of the CIA/RAW GoI/GoUS.'

So your point is .....

Lots of difference between proof not accepted as legally binding (pakistan's reaction to proofs india provides) and no proof at all..

The evidence provided by India is against certain groups, not the Pakistani State and not Pakistani institutions.

The accusations here revolve around the complicity of the Indian State in terrorism in Pakistan.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Double standards ?? Kind of rich don't you think coming from a country that denied Kasab was a Pakistani even after being exposed on Pakistani television.

So you expect nations to make decisions based on media reports instead of actual evidence?

The GoP denied Kasab was a Pakistan citizen until the GoI provided its dossier of evidence that could be used to verify Kasab's identity. That identity could have been verified much earlier had the GoI focused on cooperating and sharing that evidence instead of beating war drums and mounting an international diplomatic offensive to get Pakistan isolated.

There are people here who keep insisting that everything is a sinister Indian/Israeli/American conspiracy

Strawman - when discussing my posts with me I expect you to focus on what I say, not irrelevant arguments made by others from around the web.

and that proof provided at the U.N. against JuD which was enough to satisfy all the countries including China didn't somehow match Pakistan's exacting standards which btw seems to never be a problem when the Americans want someone to be handed over.

I believe the JuD has asked for a proper trial to determine whether they are guilty or not of the accusations made against them. I think they deserve that to determine conclusively whether they are guilty or not.

As for people handed over to Americans without due process, notice that the majority of Pakistanis are livid over those 'handovers', and it is one of the major points of criticism of Musharraf. It should not have happened. That said, the India-Pakistan relationship is nowhere close to the US-Pakistan relationship, so don't expect equal treatment on that count either, especially when it comes to 'treatment' that might have violated Pakistani laws (illegal extraditions, or extraditions without due process).

You then expect that proof merely claimed but never produced to be accepted merely because you say it to be so ?
Wake up and smell the coffee, pal.

Nice try to twist the argument around - I have no problem with accepting that Pakistan has not produced evidence backing up its claims publicly, but by that same token neither have the US and India, yet their government and military officials never stopped yapping about Pakistani complicity in terrorism, so why should Pakistan be expected to stop accusing India of this?

on the other thread S-2 was insisting I accept the reports out of NYT maligning Pakistan - why should I or anyone else accept them, when, in your own words, 'you then expect that proof merely claimed but never produced to be accepted merely because you say it to be so.'

Wake up and 'smell the coffee' of 'double standards and hypocrisy' practiced by the US and India.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

In your words..

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strategic-geopolitical-issues/23916-fierce-gun-fight-rages-kashmir-3.html#post335518

There is not parallel between East Pakistan and Kashmir, since East Pakistan was sovereign Pakistani territory, whose people chose to become a part of Pakistan, and it was internationally recognized as such.

Indian support for terrorists and separatists was therefore interference in the affairs of a sovereign state.

Kashmir is recognized internationally and by Indian and Pakistan, through the acceptance of the UNSC resolutions by India and Pakistan, as disputed territory whose resolution will be centered on the principle of self-determination. It is therefore not Indian territory and unilateral annexation of the territory by India amounts to an illegal occupation.

Agreed. Tamils were oppressed and India supported LTTE until they turn too tough.

two down ...

India has Bengal and Tamil connections and there were some reason to support Mukti Bahini and Tamil Separatists. But what's the use of supporting Baluch separatists?

What was the use of trying to push your own proxies in Afghanistan? To deny Pakistan any advantage and harm Pakistan of course.

India is going to achieve NOTHING by supporting Pakistani terrorists. India wants stable Pakistan: Krishna

That is what India says - what India does is a different story.

 

[desiman]

So let me ask you this AgNoStIc MuSliM, what do you think is the cause of the current situation in Pakistan ? Is it all India ? Are all your problems created or facilitated by India ? What you think, I just want you humble opinion and nothing else.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

So let me ask you this AgNoStIc MuSliM, what do you think is the cause of the current situation in Pakistan ? Is it all India ? Are all your problems created or facilitated by India ? What you think, I just want you humble opinion and nothing else.

Are all the problems because of India? No.

Are the Indians involved in sponsoring terrorism in Pakistan, yes, IMO they are - you don't have to accept it, but that is my opinion.

 

[desiman]

Are all the problems because of India? No.

Are the Indians involved in sponsoring terrorism in Pakistan, yes, IMO they are - you don't have to accept it, but that is my opinion.

So i guess we have reached a conclusion then. Are all the problems in India because of Pakistan ? NO

Are Pakistani's involved in sponsoring terrorism in India, YES. I can accept you argument when you do the same for mine because both of us make sense in our own ways.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

So i guess we have reached a conclusion then. Are all the problems in India because of Pakistan ? NO

Are Pakistani's involved in sponsoring terrorism in India, YES. I can accept you argument when you do the same for mine because both of us make sense in our own ways.

That is essentially the position taken by the GoI, and repeated ad hominem by India's political and military leadership, especially since the Mumbai attacks.

So as I pointed out before, why is it acceptable for Indian and US leaders to make unsubstantiated claims and people get into a tizzy when Pakistan does the same? Do your comments above indicate that you now accept that Pakistan is justified in making these allegations against the Indian State since the Indian government does the same?