India To Lease Second Russian Nuclear Attack Submarine

[ChineseTiger1986]

Did the Chinese military said anything? What the submarine was? Says the carrier group was tracking the submarine for half a day before it left. No communication or anything like that.

Didn't say anything, and definitely a fast attack nuclear sub, since no conventional sub can stalk/track a nuclear supercarrier with a cruising speed of 30 knots for so many hours without getting run out of battery.

A conventional sub can only ambush the aircraft carrier battlegroup by waiting in the same place.

 

[Oldman1]

Didn't say anything, and definitely a fast attack nuclear sub, since no conventional sub can stalk/track a nuclear supercarrier with a cruising speed of 30 knots for so many hours without getting run out of battery.

A conventional sub can only ambush the aircraft carrier battlegroup by waiting in the same place.

Carrier groups aren't going to go that fast during peacetime. Even as tense as in SCS. Just be wasting fuel for destroyers and other surface ships.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Carrier groups aren't going to go that fast during peacetime. Even as tense as in SCS. Just be wasting fuel for destroyers and other surface ships.

A conventional sub in its silent mode can only maintain a speed of 4-5 knots, so no way it can track a carrier battlegroup without getting detected.

Back in 2007, China did use the Type 039 conventional sub to surprise the battlegroup of the USS Kitty Hawk, because the Type 039 didn't track the US carrier battlegroup, but only waited for an opportunity to surprise by staying in the same place. The scenario of 2015 was a bit different, China did dispatch a fast attack nuclear sub to track the US carrier battlegroup.

 

[Oldman1]

A conventional sub in its silent mode can only maintain a speed of 4-5 knots, so no way it can track a carrier battlegroup without getting detected.

Back in 2007, China did use the Type 039 conventional sub to surprise the battlegroup of the USS Kitty Hawk, because the Type 039 didn't track the US carrier battlegroup, but only waited for an opportunity to surprise by staying in the same place. The scenario of 2015 was a bit different, China did dispatch a fast attack nuclear sub to track the US carrier battlegroup.

Pretty tricky maneuver since the USS Kitty Hawk back in the 1980s rammed into a Russian submarine when it surfaced right in front of it.

Sure the Chinese probably sent a message doing this move, but pretty dangerous.

https://www.navalhistory.org/2011/03/21/soviet-sub-collides-with-uss-kitty-hawk-21-march-1984

USS Kitty Hawk’s (CV 63) fourteenth deployment in early 1984 found her at the center of a great deal of activity. During the joint United States/Republic of Korea Exercise Team Spirit 84-1, Kitty Hawk’s Battle Group Bravo encountered numerous Soviet forces during the eight-day event. Reconnaissance aircraft overflew the group 43 times while six Soviet surface units and one submarine made an appearance.

It was the submarine, however, that had a lasting impact on the ship and its cruise. At 2207 on 21 March the submarine surfaced and collided with the carrier. The captain and starboard lookout both saw the silhouette of a sub without navigation lights moving away from the ship. Two SH-3H helicopters inspected the sub without noting any apparent damage, but a large piece of the submarine’s screw had broken off in Kitty Hawk’s hull.

The submarine was believed to be a Victor-I class attack boat, tentatively identified as K-314 (610). During the exercise it had been tracked and “killed” more than fifteen times after it was spotted on the surface fifty miles in front of the battle group.

The collision occurred despite the Incidents at Sea agreement that SECNAV John Warner and Admiral Sergei Gorshkov had signed in 1972. This agreement, designed to uphold the United States’ long cherished belief in freedom of the seas and prevent dangerous and hostile collisions at sea, was ignored in this instance. Chief of Naval Operations Admiral James Watkins reflected, “The reason behind the Soviet submarine captain’s slip in judgment is the only mystery here. He showed uncharacteristically poor seamanship in not staying clear of Kitty Hawk. That should cause concern in Moscow.”[/QUOTE]

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Pretty tricky maneuver since the USS Kitty Hawk back in the 1980s rammed into a Russian submarine when it surfaced right in front of it.

Sure the Chinese probably sent a message doing this move, but pretty dangerous.

https://www.navalhistory.org/2011/03/21/soviet-sub-collides-with-uss-kitty-hawk-21-march-1984

USS Kitty Hawk’s (CV 63) fourteenth deployment in early 1984 found her at the center of a great deal of activity. During the joint United States/Republic of Korea Exercise Team Spirit 84-1, Kitty Hawk’s Battle Group Bravo encountered numerous Soviet forces during the eight-day event. Reconnaissance aircraft overflew the group 43 times while six Soviet surface units and one submarine made an appearance.

It was the submarine, however, that had a lasting impact on the ship and its cruise. At 2207 on 21 March the submarine surfaced and collided with the carrier. The captain and starboard lookout both saw the silhouette of a sub without navigation lights moving away from the ship. Two SH-3H helicopters inspected the sub without noting any apparent damage, but a large piece of the submarine’s screw had broken off in Kitty Hawk’s hull.

The submarine was believed to be a Victor-I class attack boat, tentatively identified as K-314 (610). During the exercise it had been tracked and “killed” more than fifteen times after it was spotted on the surface fifty miles in front of the battle group.

The collision occurred despite the Incidents at Sea agreement that SECNAV John Warner and Admiral Sergei Gorshkov had signed in 1972. This agreement, designed to uphold the United States’ long cherished belief in freedom of the seas and prevent dangerous and hostile collisions at sea, was ignored in this instance. Chief of Naval Operations Admiral James Watkins reflected, “The reason behind the Soviet submarine captain’s slip in judgment is the only mystery here. He showed uncharacteristically poor seamanship in not staying clear of Kitty Hawk. That should cause concern in Moscow.”

You would expect to encounter more of this 2007 events when drilling close to the vicinity of Iran, since Iran got several Kilo class subs which are comparably similar to China's Type 039.

 

[Oldman1]

You would expect to encounter more of this 2007 events when drilling close to the vicinity of Iran, since Iran got several Kilo class subs which are comparably similar to China's Type 039.

Well hopefully doesn't happen like that.

 

[Han Patriot]

That's not deterrence patrol. SSN and SSBNs are not really the same.

I am pointing to you that back in 2013, nuclear subs regardless of SSN/SSBN already went into Indian Ocean, and you believe we only start patrolling in 2015? For gods sake the submarine was commissioned in 2007, so it sat in the docks for 8 years waiting for India?

Well, it's wrong. The K-15 entered production and was commissioned quite sometime ago. The final test happened back in 2013.

In fact even K-4 finished testing in 2014. It was tested from the Arihant last year.

Yah, according to you India was a supa powa back in 2012. . That report is an Indian source and btw how did you solve the under powered reactor problem? You can't solve a under powered reactor, it either produces that much or none. My bet is you reduced your load and hence it is a subpar sub based on russian steel and russian reactors and according to your article noisy as well. .

Why don't you ask the Russians?


I wouldn't go by media reports about technical aspects of programs when they are speculated.

The Russian ambassador will know more than a journalist.

Why Russian this and Russian that, why do you need a Russian to tell you everything. You are a supa powa 2012 afterall right? LOL.

It's no boast. We did it in our first try.

You don't boast because you can't. Your subs are not stealthy yet. For example, your currently operational SSNs cannot even cross 300m in depth. That's not something you can brag about.

Did what in your first try? Nuclear deterrence? How do you even define deterrence patrol, China can just sail from north to south China and basically the whole US is covered by the latest JL-2A, so? We had been making submarine steel for decades and our proven civilian diving vessel can reach 7000 meters, that's the highest record on earth at that time if I am not mistaken and according to you we are having less advance technology than India.

So suddenly the worlds greatest arms importer and 'foreign consultant employer' with no prior experience in even building simple non-nuclear submarines is having the bestest technology after making just ONE, ONE freaking submarine. iF THAT IS NOT BOASTFUL THEN WHAT IS? The freaking tonnage of your crappy sub looks more like an SSN than a SSBN, it's half the size of a 094, your pathetic missiles are only 3000km range. And you come to me telling me you are more advanced? You can't even make proper rifles, drones...heck what can you even make properly.

We are 'richer' than all the Arabs put together.

Yah, I am sure you are.

It's not Russian. If it was Russian, we would have had a nuclear submarine decades ago.

If you look back in history, we have received less ToT and you did. In the 80s, you guys were freely buying western technology without many restrictions.

You were literally spoon fed with technology but still so incompetent that you can't absorb it after decades. Don't even make me start talking about the consultants telling you how to design your LCA, etc...

https://in.rbth.com/blogs/stranger_...usia-helped-deliver-indias-baby-boomer_533849

Arihant: How Russia helped deliver India’s baby boomer

With nukes, duh.

You can deter Pak and China by just patrolling 1km from your coast, genius. We are next to you! Deterrence my foot.

Some people have no idea what unarmed drones can do. Yanks used U2s & Black Birds to improve their radar jamming capabilities.

Nobody is mistaking what DRONES can do, we are telling you it can be armed as well. . Just like leasing subs for billions, you guys seems oblivious to your less fortunate brethrens while burning away billions.

 

[dreamer4eva]

Nobody is mistaking what DRONES can do, we are telling you it can be armed as well. . Just like leasing subs for billions, you guys seems oblivious to your less fortunate brethrens while burning away billions.

You can use all the sarcasm you want. None of us here on PDF have inside information. US may not be ready to sell the armed drones yet, I should rather say, we don't need armed ones, where we gonna use armed drones, we are not in war with anyone. Armed drones are inherently designed for less sophisticated enemy, in other words, for guys sitting in Colorado for use against Taliban. Main purpose of drone is surveillance and that's what India is buying them for.

Anyway, this thread is already ruined by off topic discussion so not gonna post on off topic content anymore.

 

[randomradio]

Sure, even with the available assistance from the foreign power is still better than starting everything from scratch.

Everyone is heading toward the sophisticated nuclear subs that is capable to equip with the directed-energy weapons, not only just for reducing the noise level. No need to start everything from scratch by itself when the foreign assistance is available.

Exactly, glad to see a sensible Chinese member here.

China's Type 091/092 were not great, but the Type 093/094 from a decade ago were mid-carders like the LA class and Delta IV class, while some western reports had greatly exaggerated its noise level.

Those were not western reports. Those came directly from USN.

I am pointing to you that back in 2013, nuclear subs regardless of SSN/SSBN already went into Indian Ocean, and you believe we only start patrolling in 2015? For gods sake the submarine was commissioned in 2007, so it sat in the docks for 8 years waiting for India?

I'm talking about SSBN, not SSN. SSN is not for deterrence.

Yah, according to you India was a supa powa back in 2012. . That report is an Indian source and btw how did you solve the under powered reactor problem? You can't solve a under powered reactor, it either produces that much or none. My bet is you reduced your load and hence it is a subpar sub based on russian steel and russian reactors and according to your article noisy as well. .

What underpowered?

Why Russian this and Russian that, why do you need a Russian to tell you everything. You are a supa powa 2012 afterall right? LOL.

Because they are a better source than you.

So suddenly the worlds greatest arms importer and 'foreign consultant employer' with no prior experience in even building simple non-nuclear submarines is having the bestest technology after making just ONE, ONE freaking submarine. iF THAT IS NOT BOASTFUL THEN WHAT IS? The freaking tonnage of your crappy sub looks more like an SSN than a SSBN, it's half the size of a 094, your pathetic missiles are only 3000km range. And you come to me telling me you are more advanced? You can't even make proper rifles, drones...heck what can you even make properly.

All I said is we are better than "you". You ain't the world.

You were literally spoon fed with technology but still so incompetent that you can't absorb it after decades. Don't even make me start talking about the consultants telling you how to design your LCA, etc...

We have never been 'spoonfed' with technology. In fact, it was because of China that we stopped getting ToT. It was China that was spoonfed with technology because of the Soviet Union. Whatever you asked for, you got it, even cryogenic engine technology. Even today most of your engine technology is western sourced.

http://in.reuters.com/article/breakout-submarines-special-report-pix-g-idINL4N0JJ0FM20131219

The consultants are not doing anything for LCA. They are literally useless.

You can deter Pak and China by just patrolling 1km from your coast, genius. We are next to you! Deterrence my foot.

Your submarines are yet to be able to deter the US. Your subs are for India right now. No one else.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Those were not western reports. Those came directly from USN.

Those earlier reports were not accurate, and the most recent report from the USN has completely different tone regarding the Type 095. According to the most recent INTEL, it is describing as lethal as the Seawolf class by the USN.

 

[Han Patriot]

Exactly, glad to see a sensible Chinese member here.



Those were not western reports. Those came directly from USN.





I'm talking about SSBN, not SSN. SSN is not for deterrence.

SSN/SSBN, both are both nuclear propelled, what is stopping 094 from roaming around? I am just proving to you our nuclear propulsion is capable of lurking in the Indian Ocean. 094 was completed in 2007 and by your internet source (which btw used the word 'if true') claim the first patrol was in 2015, then you mean 094 was waiting for Arihant to be completed like a good old friend? Does it even sound logical? So our submarine sat there for 8 years to wait for Arihant? Gosh, the world doesn't revolve around India OK?

What underpowered?



Because they are a better source than you.



All I said is we are better than "you". You ain't the world.

What source? Our nuclear subs are all classified. You think anybody has got access to those information? We are not like you, telling the world Arihant is a SECRET project then declaring it by stages where it is now, the dimensions, bla bla bla, telling the world another one is under construction, We don't even need to spy on India, your big mouth ministers will announce it. Whatever open information out there is a guesstimate.

Better than us in what sense? Can you explain? Up until recently you can't even make bow mounted sonars. Your Arihant needed to use Russian steel for god sake. Just imagine what you are saying is true for a moment, what does this imply?

1) China worked harder, invest more, conducts research, conducts espionage to get technologies, copies and reverse engineers to learn and absorb and train specialist, improve on those technologies, have over decades of experience is now less advanced than India? Does this make sense to you? How did India get more advanced? It got downloaded from heaven into your genius heads again?

We have never been 'spoonfed' with technology. In fact, it was because of China that we stopped getting ToT. It was China that was spoonfed with technology because of the Soviet Union. Whatever you asked for, you got it, even cryogenic engine technology. Even today most of your engine technology is western sourced.

http://in.reuters.com/article/breakout-submarines-special-report-pix-g-idINL4N0JJ0FM20131219

The consultants are not doing anything for LCA. They are literally useless.

We copied, bought, reverse, beg, borrow, improve, innovate, that was our path. We were under embargo for gods sake. Hell, the report you have proves exactly my point, we had to use civilian method to access western technology and then reverse it, absorb it, improve it and innovate upon it. Does it mean we were spoonfed like Indians? You literally had consultants holding your hands, and after decades and billions you produce what? LCA and Arihant, both crappy products by Chinese standards. You are comparing a country under western arms and technology embargo with one with no restictions. Do you even want me to start on your Russian clone cryogenic engine? LCA consultants useless, you ever wonder why LCA looks like a mirage clone?

Your submarines are yet to be able to deter the US. Your subs are for India right now. No one else.

Well I would say our current 094 is not comparable to US subs, but 094B is actually comparable and 096 is even better than US subs. Thats my thinking, but India? We build nuclear subs decades ago before India even learned to walk, and you think this is meant for you? You think too highly of yourselves. We have Pakistan to handle turd world countries like you. Just need to arm them and develop their economy now.. Please don't drag us to shit level same as India who only recently build their ONE AND ONLY SUBMARINE.

Those earlier reports were not accurate, and the most recent report from the USN has completely different tone regarding the Type 095. According to the most recent INTEL, it is describing as lethal as the Seawolf class by the USN.

Please don't reveal too much to these geniuses. They have no idea how backward their country is. They keep on thinking we sell plastic toys to them when in reality, comm equipment, electronics, power equipment, machinery, APIs are sold by the billions and they export back raw materials to us. No wonder the deficit is 50 billion$, only turd world low tech countries can get this kinda deficit with China. Pathetic to the core!

 

[randomradio]

Those earlier reports were not accurate, and the most recent report from the USN has completely different tone regarding the Type 095. According to the most recent INTEL, it is describing as lethal as the Seawolf class by the USN.

Bro, your Type 095 and 096 don't exist yet. Even the Chinese won't know its noise level until it hits the water and is in operation, so how do you expect the USN to have an opinion about it?

The Type 093 and 094 are nothing to write home about as of today.

SSN/SSBN, both are both nuclear propelled, what is stopping 094 from roaming around? I am just proving to you our nuclear propulsion is capable of lurking in the Indian Ocean. 094 was completed in 2007 and by your internet source (which btw used the word 'if true') claim the first patrol was in 2015, then you mean 094 was waiting for Arihant to be completed like a good old friend? Does it even sound logical? So our submarine sat there for 8 years to wait for Arihant? Gosh, the world doesn't revolve around India OK?

I suppose you are not fit for a technical discussion.

What source? Our nuclear subs are all classified. You think anybody has got access to those information? We are not like you, telling the world Arihant is a SECRET project then declaring it by stages where it is now, the dimensions, bla bla bla, telling the world another one is under construction, We don't even need to spy on India, your big mouth ministers will announce it. Whatever open information out there is a guesstimate.

USN ONI.

1) China worked harder, invest more, conducts research, conducts espionage to get technologies, copies and reverse engineers to learn and absorb and train specialist, improve on those technologies, have over decades of experience is now less advanced than India? Does this make sense to you? How did India get more advanced? It got downloaded from heaven into your genius heads again?

We have a much smaller budget than you do, we spent a lot less money in comparison.

We copied, bought, reverse, beg, borrow, improve, innovate, that was our path. We were under embargo for gods sake. Hell, the report you have proves exactly my point, we had to use civilian method to access western technology and then reverse it, absorb it, improve it and innovate upon it. Does it mean we were spoonfed like Indians? You literally had consultants holding your hands, and after decades and billions you produce what? LCA and Arihant, both crappy products by Chinese standards. You are comparing a country under western arms and technology embargo with one with no restictions. Do you even want me to start on your Russian clone cryogenic engine?

Is that why you produce engines through licensing while we import?

LCA consultants useless, you ever wonder why LCA looks like a mirage clone?

LCA is not a Mirage clone.

Well I would say our current 094 is not comparable to US subs, but 094B is actually comparable and 096 is even better than US subs. Thats my thinking, but India? We build nuclear subs decades ago before India even learned to walk, and you think this is meant for you? You think too highly of yourselves. We have Pakistan to handle turd world countries like you. Just need to arm them and develop their economy now.. Please don't drag us to shit level same as India who only recently build their ONE AND ONLY SUBMARINE.

Quality over quantity.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Bro, your Type 095 and 096 don't exist yet. Even the Chinese won't know its noise level until it hits the water and is in operation, so how do you expect the USN to have an opinion about it?

The Type 093 and 094 are nothing to write home about as of today.

The Type 095/096 is using the similar technologies to the Columbia class SSBN, and it is right now under the construction in China's new sub factory.

The Type 093/094 are just mid-carders as I have repeated many times, they are indeed inferior to the top notch US subs, but saying they are 1960s tech is also absurd. The best comparison for the Type 093/094 is the LA class and Delta IV.

 

[randomradio]

The Type 095/096 will use the similar technologies to the Columbia class SSBN, and it is right now under the construction in China's new sub factory.

I suppose so, I don't dispute it. My point is these are paper boats right now, so any comparison will be quite useless.

The Type 093/094 are just mid-carders as I have repeated many times, they are indeed inferior to the top notch US subs, but saying they are 1960s tech is also absurd. The best comparison for the Type 093/094 is the LA class and Delta IV.

I'm going by what the USN ONI has revealed, nothing else.

For example, the Type 093 is well known to not cross the 300m limit. That's 70s tech. You are going to have to go lower if you want to blend in with background noise, or else you are going to be detectable. Otoh, the Akula II that we operate hits 600m on a good day. So you can't compare the Type 093 to even the Akula 1. That's why the comparison with Delta III which manages 320m on a good day. So, as far as ONI is concerned, their comparison with the Delta III is accurate. The Type 094 is also no better than the Type 093.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

I suppose so, I don't dispute it. My point is these are paper boats right now, so any comparison will be quite useless.



I'm going by what the USN ONI has revealed, nothing else.

For example, the Type 093 is well known to not cross the 300m limit. That's 70s tech. You are going to have to go lower if you want to blend in with background noise, or else you are going to be detectable. Otoh, the Akula II that we operate hits 600m on a good day. So you can't compare the Type 093 to even the Akula 1. That's why the comparison with Delta III which manages 320m on a good day. So, as far as ONI is concerned, their comparison with the Delta III is accurate. The Type 094 is also no better than the Type 093.

According to the Chinese source, the depth of the Type 093 is about 400 meters.

http://www.sohu.com/a/109751323_131512

I don't doubt these sources, since it is identical to what I read in the navy book in China. The Type 091/092 can dive to 300 meters which is well known among many old school military fans in China.

The Russian subs were well known for its capability of diving deep, even the most powerful US subs like Seawolf cannot match these extraordinary capability.

Overall, China's territorial water is not very deep, except in the SCS. So China didn't spend too much resources on the depth capability of its previous generation submarine. I think the Type 093 is more suitable to compare with the LA class. All the specs between these two subs are very similar.