India to buy 347 T-90 tanks for Rs 4,900 cr

[blain2]

Blain Army has ordered 124 tanks, As per its strategy and number of Arjuns that could be produced it will take couple 4 more years.
Arjun MK-2 is future modification of Arjun tank which is planned. To incorporate of the shelf components is intelligent thing of course doing it as a whole has its advantages and disadvantage.

Why do you think Arjun is an Assembled tank ?

GP,

I am not lying to you but I have read and followed this 124 number since 2000. I am also aware that some of the chassis from this batch of 124 have been turned over to the Bhim SP project (which in turn is not going anywhere).

I personally do not think that Arjun is a bad tank. Its good, but it is delayed and will not make the timelines. Now its simply a matter of sticking to the Arjun for the sake of national pride.

Go with the T-90s and move on from this Arjun episode toward something new.

 

[con]

Really? I guess then Indian industry has been getting off relatively easy as every single "successful" project undertaken by the Indian industry is one where you have assembled and not developed.

Arjun requires a lot of components of Indian origin before it can be termed "Indian" at least in my opinion.

The only things within Arjun which is not Indian are:
1.German Engine (Indian Engine project already in motion)

2.Transmission(Indian transmission currently in testing)

3.FCS with Thermal Sights(Indian alternative already present called IGMS)
http://www.bel-india.com/belwebsite/?q=&sectionid=315

4.Tracks(First 124 wont have it,but the second batch will.Indian alternative had some issues with rubber under heavy stress)

Things which are Indian:
Armour
Gun
Suspension
BMS
HMS
Shell
Turret stabilization system
Communication systems
ERA

You think it is not Indian enough?

 

[Energon]

I don't think India will ever have a truly indigenous military industry in the foreseeable future such as that in the USA, Western Europe, Russia or even China. Granted, India has all the required preambles: Highly skilled scientists and engineers, large industrial capabilities, access to raw materials such as iron etc. However, there are a multitude of other reasons that will keep it from becoming a completely self sufficient producer of military hardware. Here are some of them:

1. The military industrial complex is heavily controlled by the government. This in has resulted in a human resource problem whereby the most qualified scientists and engineers either emigrate or seek employment with the private sector since the pay is better as are the human resource policies. This subsequently has kept R&D in various arenas at a low. It takes decades and generations of production units to establish a good flow of sophisticated arms, this is why India only has "islands of success." Also, most of these success enclaves are based around technology that have dual purposes for civilian use as well as a high commercial value. The nuclear program and the space program are good examples of this phenomenon.

2. Export policy. The only way a developing nation can finance an indigenous arms industry (from R&D to mass production) is via exports. In order to compete with the more advanced arms producers, one first has to start by supplying non sophisticated cheap arms and then move up to providing more sophisticated hardware (as money starts rolling in enabling more R&D). China has done this very well. However the only problem is that in order to be an arms exporter to the lowest common denominator (the only potential clientèle are going to be poorer undeveloped nations and militias), one can't be fickle or worry about things like human rights violations. India unlike China hasn't been able to do this. They cut off military aid to Nepal and Sri Lanka because of human rights violations related pressure and refuse to do arms trading with African nations because of internal pressure to stay away from such sort of trading. Unless they are willing to change their policies, there is no way India is ever going to be a successful (profit making) arms trader which in turn will keep their military industry stunted.

There is of course always the possibility that all of this can change rapidly now that the private sector is being let in. India's private sector has proven themselves to grow at a rather alarming rate and start competing on the global market with decent products, the automobile industry is one of the best examples. But for now I think the best India can do is collaborate with more advanced partners in the west or Israel to develop and eventually indiginize core technology and then rely upon imports from matured markets for the rest. Personally I think developing countries like India should be spending a lot more on human development anyways. Also engaging in arms trading (particularly light arms) with unstable, poor and war ridden nations isn't really a good policy IMO.

 

[con]

Oh man, do I love this fourm? Where else can you find LIES, DECPTION and SELFDELUSION in individuals.

Vooo Mr.Truth seeker....

check the video at 5.27 and read it properly. If you can read then it will show June 2006.
It will help you get out of SELFDELUSION.

YouTube - Arjun MBT 1 of 2

 

[blain2]

The only things within Arjun which is not Indian are:
1.German Engine (Indian Engine project already in motion)

2.Transmission(Indian transmission currently in testing)

3.FCS with Thermal Sights(Indian alternative already present called IGMS)
BEL :: Products :: Defence :: Tank Electronics - Indigenous Gunners Main Sight for MBT

4.Tracks(First 124 wont have it,but the second batch will.Indian alternative had some issues with rubber under heavy stress)

Things which are Indian:
Armour
Gun
Suspension
BMS
HMS
Shell
Turret stabilization system
Communication systems
ERA

You think it is not Indian enough?

No not really. Most of the things that you talk about are direct technology transfusion by western suppliers. In the end, its not really an issue of "is it Indian enough" for me. I am simply stating that the tank is too late because of the stress on indigenous aspect of things. The fact that the program is 20 years delayed and has been a moving target in terms of ASR for the DRDO to keep up with is another sign that the requirements around which it was built have changed.

Its for the Indians to decide where Arjun stands, but as an outside observer, I really do not see much traction on this induction...Indian Army for certain is not rushing to induct it, preferring to go with T-90s. The fact that some people are calling the induction of Arjun alongside the T-90s as a new doctrine which calls for two types of tanks to be fielded is nothing but face saving for DRDO and national pride. T-90 for all intents and purposes is very suitable for use against Pakistani armour. There remains no need for a heavy MBT in the Indo-Pak armoured warfare context.

 

[con]

No not really. Most of the things that you talk about are direct technology transfusion by western suppliers. In the end, its not really an issue of "is it Indian enough" for me. I am simply stating that the tank is too late because of the stress on indigenous aspect of things. The fact that the program is 20 years delayed and has been a moving target in terms of ASR for the DRDO to keep up with is another sign that the requirements around which it was built have changed.

Its for the Indians to decide where Arjun stands, but as an outside observer, I really do not see much traction on this induction...Indian Army for certain is not rushing to induct it, preferring to go with T-90s. The fact that some people are calling the induction of Arjun alongside the T-90s as a new doctrine which calls for two types of tanks to be fielded is nothing but face saving for DRDO and national pride. T-90 for all intents and purposes is very suitable for use against Pakistani armour. There remains no need for a heavy MBT in the Indo-Pak armoured warfare context.

Technology transfer to India? By whom? What was transfered? Gun? Armour? Suspension? Please do provide me proof for such a claim.

You say there is no need for a heavy MBT in Indio-Pak context. Why not?
Please dont tell me about PA's experience during 65 conflict with "heavy" tanks. People forget that AK or T-90 are heavier than those Pattons.But still maintain that the AKs & T-90s are perfect for Indo- Pak scenario, as they are light.

If heavy tanks are not fit,wonder why did IA placed a GSR of an MBT? Arjun is NOT DRDO experiment. It was built on IA's GSR.

Just because PA inducts a lighter tank does not mean IA should also induct a lighter tank. If an army fights with it's adversary on equal terms,then they dont deserve to win.
What US showed to the world is that you fight war with over-whelming force, not on equal terms.

IA does not rush to induct anything. They are already way behind on T-72 upgrade. They are not bother about kicking off local production of T-90. Matter of fact Arjun production is way ahead of T-90 production. It has it's own dedicated "production" unit,while yet to start "assembly" of T-90. How do you think IA will induct 1000 T-90s in a decade at this rate?

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

" Mama, the CROW is not black. As many times as you may say, I won't accept it ". Simple as that.

 

[aryan2007]

Hi,

" Mama, the CROW is not black. As many times as you may say, I won't accept it ". Simple as that.

works both ways

 

[Titanium]

Vooo Mr.Truth seeker....

check the video at 5.27 and read it properly. If you can read then it will show June 2006.

YouTube - Arjun MBT 1 of 2

So you do know truth??? and all this report of 124 Arjun sanctioned in 2000 is farce and the reports that 15 tanks delivered in 2005 is fake?

Oh wait a sec those 15 must have come "Indegeniously" from MATA-MANTRA, thats as Indeginous as it comes.

Hats off to your sheer :indigenous" desperation.

 

[Goodperson]

Indian Army ordered 124 Arjun tanks in 2002 not 2000 as claimed by Blain

History of Arjun Tank Development | Frontier India Defence & Strategic News Service

 

[blain2]

Indian Army ordered 124 Arjun tanks in 2002 not 2000 as claimed by Blain

Link-http://*****************/history-of-arjun-tank-development/

I am old but my memory is not that bad

A simple google search reveals the following:

Indian Army to receive 124 Arjun tanks by 2009

By IANS
Wednesday May 9, 08:56 PM

New Delhi, May 9 (IANS) The Indian Army will by 2009 receive the full complement of 124 Arjun main battle tanks it contracted for and designed and developed by country's defence scientists, parliament was informed Wednesday.

'Five tanks have already been handed over to the army in 2005 and nine more tanks are ready for delivery. The remaining quantity is expected to be delivered by 2009,' Defence Minister A.K. Antony said in a written reply in the Rajya Sabha.

The army had placed its Rs.17.60 billion order for the tanks in March 2000. The tank is being manufactured at the Heavy Vehicle Factory at Avadi near Tamil Nadu capital Chennai.

'All issues related to the production of Arjun have been resolved and the production is getting stabilized,' Antony said, adding: 'At present there is no proposal to take the cooperation of private sector as a joint venture.'

At the same time, the private sector is involved in the project as a supplier of various components and assemblies, the minister pointed out.

The Indian Army, however, seems to be unhappy with the tank, as was evident from remarks made last week by the army chief, Gen. J.J. Singh, during a war game at which Arjun was fielded for the first time.

'We have to make sure the troops are not exposed to any disadvantage,' Singh replied cryptically when asked about Arjun's performance during the five-day exercise codenamed Ashwamedh from April 29 to May 3. A squadron of 14 Arjuns was deployed during the drill.

'If improvements are required in the system, it will be pointed out (to the developers Defence Research and Development Organisation-DRDO),' the army chief maintained.

'We will draw lessons from the exercise on which area they (the Arjuns) can be best exploited,' he added.

While not officially going on record, the army is known to have listed 14 defects that need to be rectified.

These include a deficient fire control system, inaccuracy of its guns, low speeds in tactical areas - principally deserts - and its inability to operate in temperatures over 50 degrees Celsius.

At a review meeting with the DRDO last month, Defence Minister A.K. Antony is known to have asked the organisation to get its act together to rectify these defects or the government might have to take another look at the entire programme.

Parliament's Standing Committee on Defence has, in two reports earlier this year, remarked adversely on the slow pace of Arjun's development and asked the DRDO to quicken the process.

The Indian Army laid down its qualitative requirement (QR) for the Arjun in 1972. In 1982, the DRDO had announced that the prototype was ready for field trials. However, the tank was publicly unveiled for the first time only in 1995.

Arjun was originally meant to be a 40-tonne tank with a 105 mm gun. It has now grown to a 50-tonne vehicle with a 120 mm gun.

The tank was meant to supplement and eventually replace the Soviet-era T-72 MBT that was first inducted in the early 1980s. However, delays in the Arjun project, and Pakistan's decision to purchase the T-80 from Ukraine, prompted India to order 310 T-90s, an upgraded version of the T-72, in 2001.

Of these, 186 were built at the Heavy Vehicles Factory at Avadi. An agreement was also signed for the licensed production of another 1,000 T-90s.

With the Arjun development delayed still further, India last year signed a fresh contract with Russia to buy another 330 T-90s.
Indian Army to receive 124 Arjun tanks by 2009

Even though I have made my point with regards to the date of the order, lets not get carried away by the order date entirely. The fact that an order for 124 tanks put in 2000 has not been completed to-date or revised upwards (in terms of numbers) seems to be an indication of something not quite right.

 

[blain2]

Technology transfer to India? By whom? What was transfered? Gun? Armour? Suspension? Please do provide me proof for such a claim.

You say there is no need for a heavy MBT in Indio-Pak context. Why not?
Please dont tell me about PA's experience during 65 conflict with "heavy" tanks. People forget that AK or T-90 are heavier than those Pattons.But still maintain that the AKs & T-90s are perfect for Indo- Pak scenario, as they are light.

If heavy tanks are not fit,wonder why did IA placed a GSR of an MBT? Arjun is NOT DRDO experiment. It was built on IA's GSR.

Just because PA inducts a lighter tank does not mean IA should also induct a lighter tank. If an army fights with it's adversary on equal terms,then they dont deserve to win.
What US showed to the world is that you fight war with over-whelming force, not on equal terms.

IA does not rush to induct anything. They are already way behind on T-72 upgrade. They are not bother about kicking off local production of T-90. Matter of fact Arjun production is way ahead of T-90 production. It has it's own dedicated "production" unit,while yet to start "assembly" of T-90. How do you think IA will induct 1000 T-90s in a decade at this rate?

My friend we are going in circles with this defence of the Arjun. Last one from me on this as obviously you and I can't decide this issue here for good.

I am not the one writing about the delays and lack of satisfaction with the tank.

I have read and seen (at least on the Pakistani side with regards to Abrams trials) India lacks the infrastructure to induct a tank in this weight class just like Pakistan does....you can discount this fact but it is indeed the truth. Had the Tank met the Gen Staff requirements of the IA wholeheartedly then this tank would have been ordered at the scale of Vijayantas. IA would have to lay down certain GSR's for the tank because they are the end-users and there is this 800lbs gorilla of an indigenous tank riding their backs. However many, many articles have been written about the fact that the Tank has missed the mark and that too by many years. What IA may have required 10 (or is it 20?) years ago may no longer be an up and current SR. The DRDO has cried about the fact that IA has given them a moving target in terms of requirements. So there is still a disconnect on the tank inbetween the Army and the DRDO. Additional T-90s push the Arjun out of contention even more.

 

[PAK-FA]

Really? I guess then Indian industry has been getting off relatively easy as every single "successful" project undertaken by the Indian industry is one where you have assembled and not developed.

Arjun requires a lot of components of Indian origin before it can be termed "Indian" at least in my opinion. Pakistani tanks on the other hand are functional and we were able to operationalize them in a relatively quick time. I do not think any body in Pakistan is losing sleep over the fact that AK's have a Ukrainian engine or a western origin FCS...the fact is that it works and we are not re-inventing the wheel.

Also Tank-EX is simply a re-work of the existing hardware to get around the problem of transporting Arjun in the existing Indian infrastructure.

Indian Army Chiefs for the past decade have been talking about inducting the Arjun (what other choice do they have but to parrot the "indigenous efforts" line?).

This seems like a repeat of the T-72 buy (T-90s). Arjun is too late and too little now to turn the tide around. Its better to look at the sunk cost and move on from the Arjun (however all indications are that national pride is holding more sway than technical and professional reasons).

--------------------------------------------------------------


If atleast 50% of the components are designed/manufactured locally, the product can be called as indigeneous. It would be wrong to call AK as a pakistani tank because it is designed and developed by China. Thomas Alva Edison knew 999 reasons WHY bulb filament is make like it is. But others only know 1 way how it is made. R&D is something similar. You can only duplicate AK, but we can modify Arjun to get Tank-Ex. If you say that you have designed AK we can say we have designed T-90, but both statements are stupid, but the difference is, we dont make stupid statements. And please dont boast about your scientists, did you ever think how a country which has never launched a satellite itself can design missiles which re-enter from space. This itself shows that they have imported the missiles. LOL

Also Tank-EX is simply a re-work of the existing hardware to get around the problem of transporting Arjun in the existing Indian infrastructure.
> Tank-Ex is specifically designed to reduce the weight of Arjun which is the prime concern, as it affects the mobility.

Yes, the Indian Army is reluctant to induct the Arjun because of technical issues, this is a good sign, it indicates that we prefer quality weapons. Not like Jf-17. LoL.

And if you say T-90 is equally powerful as T-72, it only shows your technical in-expertise.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[con]

My friend we are going in circles with this defence of the Arjun. Last one from me on this as obviously you and I can't decide this issue here for good.

I am not the one writing about the delays and lack of satisfaction with the tank.

I have read and seen (at least on the Pakistani side with regards to Abrams trials) India lacks the infrastructure to induct a tank in this weight class just like Pakistan does....you can discount this fact but it is indeed the truth. Had the Tank met the Gen Staff requirements of the IA wholeheartedly then this tank would have been ordered at the scale of Vijayantas. IA would have to lay down certain GSR's for the tank because they are the end-users and there is this 800lbs gorilla of an indigenous tank riding their backs. However many, many articles have been written about the fact that the Tank has missed the mark and that too by many years. What IA may have required 10 (or is it 20?) years ago may no longer be an up and current SR. The DRDO has cried about the fact that IA has given them a moving target in terms of requirements. So there is still a disconnect on the tank inbetween the Army and the DRDO. Additional T-90s push the Arjun out of contention even more.

I am just countering your arguments that Arjun is not worth the time and effort spend. Yes there are lot other issues regarding it's induction,which is beyond the ability of the tank.
As you said IA does not have the infrastructure to support Arjun, which has been the most important issue regarding it's induction. Since the last decade IA has slowly but surely has setup the infra needed to support Arjun. The subcontinent has lighter tanks not because heavier tanks wont work.It is because money is not available to maintain these machines.Simple as that.
India was already talking to the Germans for Leo when PA was carrying out trials for M1A1's. Given the money to maintain such an armour force,PA would also go for a M1A1's.

Induction of a new tank is not the high priority for IA.They have far more important issues to worry about where the money goes. This does not means that Arjun has missed the GSR. By the turn of the decade IA would have complete the logistics set up to handle heavy armored tanks.

And dare I say T-90 would be last tank to imported by India.
IA is conducting trials for setting up the logistics train for Arjun, as we speak.

These trials are officially supposed to reveal the spare parts requirement to maintain the tanks.

http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1138504

 

[IceCold]

--------------------------------------------------------------


If atleast 50% of the components are designed/manufactured locally, the product can be called as indigeneous. It would be wrong to call AK as a pakistani tank because it is designed and developed by China. Thomas Alva Edison knew 999 reasons WHY bulb filament is make like it is. But others only know 1 way how it is made. R&D is something similar. You can only duplicate AK, but we can modify Arjun to get Tank-Ex. If you say that you have designed AK we can say we have designed T-90, but both statements are stupid, but the difference is, we dont make stupid statements. And please dont boast about your scientists, did you ever think how a country which has never launched a satellite itself can design missiles which re-enter from space. This itself shows that they have imported the missiles. LOL

Also Tank-EX is simply a re-work of the existing hardware to get around the problem of transporting Arjun in the existing Indian infrastructure.
> Tank-Ex is specifically designed to reduce the weight of Arjun which is the prime concern, as it affects the mobility.

Yes, the Indian Army is reluctant to induct the Arjun because of technical issues, this is a good sign, it indicates that we prefer quality weapons. Not like Jf-17. LoL.

And if you say T-90 is equally powerful as T-72, it only shows your technical in-expertise.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Just because DRDO screws you guys up everytime doesnt mean you let your frustration out on the rest. Prefer quality weapons yeah i can see that from the quality of arjun, which even IA doesnt want lol. so much for the quality and last but not the least the all time hit LCA. By the way what is the next induction date given for the airforce? probaly around 2040 i presume.