India Supporting Taliban-US Intel Official

[RedBaron]

Even if you went by those alone, India still has the highest number of consulates on that page. USA needs just one. Pakistan you can understand.

USA has such a massive presence in Afghanistan that multiple consulates are unnecessary. India wants to play a large role there due to the reasons I've described in my previous post.

But that's just that page. There's official and unoffical consulates, many of them along the Afghan-Pak border.

Consulates and embassies are official missions. Unofficial centers are anything but, and should be easy to neutralize for Haqqani's forces as these are typically not heavily fortified as embassies and consulates. If they could strike Kabul embassy, why can't they strike other outposts?

"Islamabad has on its part has been expressing its concerns over the location of six Indian consulates in cities along the Pakistan border, and of Indian military assistance to the Afghan authorities for the building of the Afghan national army."
http://www.silkroadstudies.org/new/docs/CEF/Quarterly/May_2006/Zeb.pdf

There's also the Indian Embassy in Zahidan which was caught exporting terrorism to the area of Balochistan and NWFP last year by providing agents and supplies for terrorists operating within the region.

None of the official missions are really very close to Pak border. And if this whole issue is so bothersome, why have GoP not formally created and presented a dossier to Holbrooke and mounted a diplomatic offensive as I mentioned in my previous post?

Also, everyone please stay tuned...a highly-respected Think Tank will soon provide some facts that will turn the entire discussion on its head, and more, I promise it's gonna get really exciting....stay tuned!

 

[roadrunner]

USA has such a massive presence in Afghanistan that multiple consulates are unnecessary. India wants to play a large role there due to the reasons I've described in my previous post.

Yes,yes, dear sweet innocent Bhorat You've already been caught red handed fostering terrorism in the NWFP by US intel! Does it not add up that these consulates would be ideal as the source for said terrorism? I think it's very logical.

You can understand why Pakistan has multiple consulates in Afghanistan, as many people cross the border etc. But India does not even share a border with Afghanistan!

Consulates and embassies are official missions. Unofficial centers are anything but, and should be easy to neutralize for Haqqani's forces as these are typically not heavily fortified as embassies and consulates. If they could strike Kabul embassy, why can't they strike other outposts?

Not with the increase in Indian commandoes that such strikes help bring about.

None of the official missions are really very close to Pak border. And if this whole issue is so bothersome, why have GoP not formally created and presented a dossier to Holbrooke and mounted a diplomatic offensive as I mentioned in my previous post?

How do you know the GoP has not? Just recently US intel officials have been saying that India is fostering terrorism in the NWFP and Balochistan. That is what US intelligence finds. Holbrooke is a diplomat, he does things in his interests, the intelligence is used by him but only when it is in the US's interests to use it.

Also, everyone please stay tuned...a highly-respected Think Tank will soon provide some facts that will turn the entire discussion on its head, and more, I promise it's gonna get really exciting....stay tuned!

The facts have been provided. Two very strong articles, in fact quoting US intelligence officials as saying that India is fostering terrorism in Pakistan.

As for the consulates, I can quote articles saying there's a hundred, there's 20,19, 15,14, etc etc. The only way you are going to know for sure (or myself), is by going down there and checking. But why would the precise number of consulates matter? All India needs is one or two consulates (they are big enough and immune), to stash away,supply, and covertly foster terrorism in Pakistan.

You're picking up a minor point, and making it into a mountain. We know there are several,and I provided one article suggesting there's 6 Indian consulates along the border. You can take it or leave it. The fact is India does not need this many consulates when even Iran, a country that borders Afghanistan, does not have that many.

 

[RedBaron]

Yes,yes, dear sweet innocent Bhorat
...
You're picking up a minor point, and making it into a mountain. We know there are several,and I provided one article suggesting there's 6 Indian consulates along the border. You can take it or leave it. The fact is India does not need this many consulates when even Iran, a country that borders Afghanistan, does not have that many.

Sir, as a senior member you know as well as I do that foreign policy especially in Indo-Pak context is not a child's game. There are no sweet innocents here. This is a high-stakes game with no good and evil sides. India has learnt valuable lessons from the Kandahar hijack drama, and hence knows that having a friendly regime in Afghanistan is crucial, hence supports the NA. Pakistan justifiably is concerned about Indian encirclement, hence supports the Taliban. There is no easy solutions. Both India and Pakistan will try to outmanouver each other in Afghanistan and gain the upper hand...

My previous posts have focussed on refuting the so-called India/TTP nexus, not the number of consulates or unofficial bases. Since we clearly disagree on the number as well as nature of consulates, further debate on the consulate issue is futile.

 

[roadrunner]

Then there's nothing really to dispute in the thread. But India is fostering terrorism from within Afghanistan, since this is not a defensive move. It is an offensive move to stir up trouble in a foreign country. The goal appears to be to cause civil war in Pakistan. This is something some people still deny on here.

 

[S-2]

A superb series of retorts-lucid, concise, reasoned, and reasonable.

The message- Make your case as big boys and girls do. Nobody will make it for you short of stumbling on pulitzer prize material.

We don't disbelieve you. We DOUBT you. Prove to us and the world in undeniable fashion the extent and depth of this duplicity. Back the rest of us into a corner rhetorically.

Thus far it hasn't been done very well, if at all.

Oh, thanks! I've been writing about Herat, Mazur-I-Sharif, Jalalabad, and Kandahar for some time to no avail. The mantra is set on the consulates. Both Jalalabad and Kandahar are within 60 km of the border, btw.

Great point on Haqqani. He can hit an embassy. How are all these "consulates" still able to survive?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Well, Holbrooke's appointment presents an excellent opportunity for GoP to present its case.

Your argument (and S-2's) is completely flawed becasue it is based on the presumption that the only reason the US has not acted is because Pakistan has not 'shared evidence/provided evidence with it.

Unfortunately that is not the case, because what the articles posted so far, quoting US Intelligence officials, suggest is that US intelligence is aware of Indian support for terrorism in Pakistan. In fact, S-2, you yourself accepted this point when you were being 'blunt', that the US has given short rift to Pakistani concerns in Baluchistan.

The argument you and S-2 made is shown to be invalid even more becasue of other articles quoting high level sources (reportedly in the room) when the meeting between Musharraf, Kiyani and US defence officials occurred in which detailed evidence was shared with these officials. Furthermore, reports from high level sources in the Pakistani government also state that this evidence was taken to the US during Gillani's visit and meeting with President Bush, and provided to Bush Adminsitration officials.

So the evidence has been provided, concerns have been made clear, and it is apparent from the statements of US intelligence officials that the US is aware of Indian support for terrorism in Pakistan, and it has chosen to not act to stop it. This is then plain and simple US duplicity and acquiescence to Indian support for terrorism in Pakistan, and not a situation of 'Pakistan providing proof and making its case' - Pakistan has already done that. It is time for the US to stop being duplicitous and act as a responsible partner and ally in the WoT.

 

[RedBaron]

Your argument (and S-2's) is completely flawed becasue it is based on the presumption that the only reason the US has not acted is because Pakistan has not 'shared evidence/provided evidence with it.

Unfortunately that is not the case, because what the articles posted so far, quoting US Intelligence officials, suggest is that US intelligence is aware of Indian support for terrorism in Pakistan. In fact, S-2, you yourself accepted this point when you were being 'blunt', that the US has given short rift to Pakistani concerns in Baluchistan.

The allegations are that India is directly or indirectly funding TTP/Pak Taliban. If so, then India would be guilty of being an accomplice if not mastermind of heinous crimes like beheading soldiers/FC and killing scores of FATA/Swat elders and other civilians. The final casualty figure in FATA/Swat number in the thousands.
And yet we just don't see the same outrage on GoP's part as we saw from GoI post-Mumbai. If GoP has identified, arrested and/or killed RAW agents in FATA/Swat, identified the Indian missions that sent them, acquired satphone details, figured out modus operandi, etc. why has it kept these details secret? Why not publish a dossier and give it to Pak and international media? Why has it not confronted GoI aggressively like GoI did post-Mumbai? Why have Pak diplomat corps not been engaged to launch a diplomatic offensive to drum up international support among other friends like China, Turkey and other allies specifically on this issue? This issue has cost scores more lives than the Mumbai attack did.

If GoP had gone about it the same way as GoI did post-Mumbai, you would not have to rely on obscure reports from unnamed sources. You would have an officially vetted dossier from GoP that you could upload on this forum. Why has GoP not done this? Yourself and others obviously have strong conviction, but the official silence is deafening. Hence the doubt.

 

[S-2]

"In fact, S-2, you yourself accepted this point when you were being 'blunt', that the US has given short rift to Pakistani concerns in Baluchistan."

Now it's a long shrift. I affirm the possibility. Make your case in substantive fashion or allow your government to do so. Afghanistan is a place where anything is possible.

I could be wrong but I don't believe so. It'll be to others to change my mind, though. There's nobody here who can successfully do so. Not with what we know right now anyway.

Yes. I know about the meeting with U.S., Musharaff, Kiyani, et al. I'm fascinated by the disclosures as reported. A very one-sided picture replete with details galore but utterly devoid of any U.S. reaction. You sure told it to us by the looks of things, eh?

Small matter. This is a rhetorical exercise here that's based on incomplete evidence and irrelevant moral judgements. The leaders of the affected nations will determine if the matter merits discussion and to what extent.

Nothing's proven. I think the burden will be on your government. Your evidence will need to be good. We'll listen if it is. Who wouldn't? Of course, you'll have to be careful about sources and methods.

We might run and tell the Indians, don't you know.

What we do about it is another matter. Here's an example-we know that your land has been used to attack afghans, Americans, and others since early 2002. Done deal. Aid and abetting-we're convinced.

So what do we do? Go to war? Naw...we plan an aid package.

What would you recommend we do for India should they be complicit- hand over to them Pebble Beach?

 

[A1Kaid]

We don't disbelieve you. We DOUBT you. Prove to us and the world in undeniable fashion the extent and depth of this duplicity. Back the rest of us into a corner rhetorically.

Prove to you? Yeah just like your President did when making the case for War in Iraq... Prove to you!

Silly Americans, they still think they have the benefit of the doubt. Your nation's credibility has expired, no matter how black your President is and how much "hope & change" he brings...

 

[A1Kaid]

You know as I think about this situation "India Supporting Taliban"

We should first ask ourselves...Who do we consider Taliban and who do we NOT consider Taliban? These days there are a lot of Pashtun and tribal men carrying assault weapons, dressed and appear very conservative. Hence, making it difficult to visually distinguish between the two...

Now my conjecture is, IF India really is supporting the Taliban then it must be a strategy for the short-run, India knows Pakistani military is battling the Taliban, so providing a boost in strength to the Taliban would hurt Pakistani army...

In the long run, it does not make sense for India to support Taliban as their (Taliban's) religious views and political views are more Anti-India then they are Anti-Pakistan...

What I also think is India is supporting a certain segment of the so called "Taliban"...As I have said before there are good Taliban who fight to liberate, who do not attack children and women and schools, but attack foreign occupiers...Then there are the bad Taliban who are inhumane and barbaric, and also fight with the Pakistani army frequently, oppress, and more...

It is this Taliban the bad Taliban that some RAW agents are able to get a hold of and influence...

However as I said before it is difficult to distinguish between who is Taliban and who is not, and now that there are two or more factions in the "Taliban" it is more confusing..


These are just my preliminary thoughts...

 

[jeypore]

In the long run, it does not make sense for India to support Taliban as their (Taliban's) religious views and political views are more Anti-India then they are Anti-Pakistan...

That is why RAW is really smart, they can make Anti-india to fight pakistanie with just the color of money.

What I also think is India is supporting a certain segment of the so called "Taliban"...As I have said before there are good Taliban who fight to liberate, who do not attack children and women and schools, but attack foreign occupiers...Then there are the bad Taliban who are inhumane and barbaric, and also fight with the Pakistani army frequently, oppress, and more...

Mr dear you cannot be half pregnant.

 

[Task Force Black]

There are sufficient levels of senior defections around the world directly in to Western Intelligence agencies that the depth and details of operations in and around every country in the region are considerably well known.

It's one of the reasons why Western Intelligence agencies are capable of such degrees of integration that other regions can only dream about.

Pakistan, like India, has sufficient leverage into that community to present such a grave case as the one India stands accused of here that it would accomplish significant results.

This has not materialised.

Heads are not banging off brick walls here gentlemen, they are being banged together.

 

[A1Kaid]

Mr dear you cannot be half pregnant.

I agree, allow me to clarify, It appears that there are members in the Taliban who are perpetrating heinous crimes, however this does not make all of the Taliban members bad! Just like with any community, army, and or society...


"half-pregnant" argument is invalid.

 

[jeypore]

There are sufficient levels of senior defections around the world directly in to Western Intelligence agencies that the depth and details of operations in and around every country in the region are considerably well known.

It's one of the reasons why Western Intelligence agencies are capable of such degrees of integration that other regions can only dream about.

Pakistan, like India, has sufficient leverage into that community to present such a grave case as the one India stands accused of here that it would accomplish significant results.

This has not materialised.

Heads are not banging off brick walls here gentlemen, they are being banged together.

Your argument does not ponder to me very well. If the defections is the case, sir. Then one get information only. Here India is being accussed of aiding and abiding with the talibans to desrupt Pakistan as well as NATO's goals in the region.

 

[S-2]

"These are just my preliminary thoughts..."

I was hoping that you'd allow them to be your final thoughts. No such luck.

OTOH, I confess that the following is priceless-

"As I have said before there are good Taliban who fight to liberate, who do not attack children and women and schools, but attack foreign occupiers...Then there are the bad Taliban who are inhumane and barbaric, and also fight with the Pakistani army frequently, oppress, and more..."

You've said this in public more than once and weren't killed immediately to preserve the gene-pool? Amazing good fortune for you.

May you live in interesting times, A1Kaid.