India starts work on second indigenous aircraft carrier

[ajtr]

Arey pahale 1st wala to complete kar lo already 3 yrs late chal raha hai.

 

[Jackdaws]

No. I'm merely asking you to explain a statement you made. It wasn't about ship building techniques, it was about the ships themselves - you called them substandard. And you said it was obvious. It isn't so obvious to me how these ships are substandard, which is why I asked you to explain. Looks like it isn't too obvious to you either, since you are trying to divert the issue from ships to ship building techniques, and putting words in my mouth and creating straw men to attack.

I cannot see how anybody can call these ships substandard for their tonnage class. They carry very respectable sensors and armaments, and are a very potent addition to the IN, and more complex and powerful than anything they have ever operated so far.

It is obvious to me that the ships will be substandard because of India's rather pathetic domestic defense manufacturing record. If that were not the case, many countries around the world would be clamoring to buy defense products from India. However, pretty much every defense project of India has become a joke. After the amount of money that was sunk into the LCA - what did we have? An American engine, a British ejection seat, Israeli and French components. And the project was supposed to be complete in the 1980s. That was in the last century. And how many foreign buyers have evinced an interest in buying the LCA?

Then we have the Arjun tank - work began on it in the 1970s and it was finally inducted in the mid-90s with 50% foreign components! If we are so good at making tanks - why did the Army import Russian T-90s and have them manufactured under license here? Because like most Indian defense products, this too was substandard.

This first carrier has already been delayed by 2 years. Now wait for it to be delayed even more.

We can import them during peacetime and during wartime they can become glorified hangar queens due to lack of sparepart as some country has imposed sanction on us.

Didnt we learn anything at all from history ?

Even if this product its substandard -- so be it, we are not going to fight the USN tomorrow. But not stopping the learning process tomorrow we can build better ships.

The way around that would be to do a technology transfer agreement and buy the technology and the project management methodology to build it here so we can produce the spares ourselves and finish the project without overruns of time and cost while ensuring the quality. What is the point of doing R&D on something which is already available? It is as absurd as re-inventing the wheel.

sorry but moral of the story is we should be willing to out run america one day. what r u talking about, why staying at no2 or 3. we have alreadt reached the top in many fields.

The point is not to outrun anyone. The point is to ensure that the citizens of India can live with dignity in a safe environment. We are laggards on almost all counts. While I support ISRO launching satellites as it actually helps improves the lives of the average Indian; I am against India wasting resources at companies like HAL and DRDO.

 

[Screambowl]

if we say it will take 8 years to complete this ship, by 2020 we will have 3. I presumed that IAC 2 will be only operational after 2022.

 

[sancho]

IMHO, IN should go for the same design that of IAC-1, they already have the design & they are already building it so mistakes in IAC-1 will not get repeated, increasing the size of AC to 65k + CATOBAR configuration will only increase the difficulties facing the indigenous AC construction, by sticking to this design we can get IAC -2 in just 6-7 years, increasing the size or making it nuclear powered will postpone the date of induction to early 2020s. Even US does not change specifications so dramatically as India has done for IAC-2.

The thing is, that operating fighters from a CATOBAR carrier makes them more capable than from a STOBAR carrier, that's why it's logical that IN wants to have catapults if possible. So when you think about a bigger, more capable carrier, that can be send to way further ranges to project the power, CATOBAR would be the best option.

Navy sources expressed hope that by the time the IAC-II would be ready, the indigenously-built Naval Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) would also be fully mature for operating on it.[/B]

I think N-LCA will not be in CATOBAR configuration. IAC II may be SATOBAR, may be like Kuzetsnov Class Carrier.... Something like this

Catapult take off requires more changes and would be possible but highly unlikely, because it would still remain to be the least capable modern carrier fighter, by far not useful enough to take on PLAN.

 

[Black Widow]

The thing is, that operating fighters from a CATOBAR carrier makes them more capable than from a STOBAR carrier, that's why it's logical that IN wants to have catapults if possible. So when you think about a bigger, more capable carrier, that can be send to way further ranges to project the power, CATOBAR would be the best option.



Catapult take off requires more changes and would be possible but highly unlikely, because it would still remain to be the least capable modern carrier fighter, by far not useful enough to take on PLAN.

Agree with you, Catapult carriers are more efficient. But It can delay IAC II. India can get tech knowhow from USA on steam catapult .


Lets wait and watch , how the design comes up..... If shipyard can incroporate Steam catapult on time, it will be iceing on cake.. (@EMALS: I am sure that USA will not give this technology to India).

 

[Invincible INDIAN]

You got it wrong bro. It's not about construction. They are working on design of ship. Let them fix it weight first.


You got it wrong bro. It's not about construction. They are working on design of ship. Let them fix it weight first.

Why to weight their design? I think we should wait till designing phase get completes

Just kidding buddy, Never mind!!!

 

[Mani2020]

I disagree you, If you know well, This is Modular design. In Modular design different ppl do different work. The team who created the Hull will be free , so better use them to create second IAC Hull.


I suggest you to read some management books to learn how to increase efficiency by reusing resources...

Re-using resources doesnot mean that you have avoided all the glitches , the chances of glitches doesnot depend upon resource usage or re-usage , my point was resource constraints can be one point but along with that there can be various functional errors that can only be detected and overcome once the aircraft carrier has gone through various tests and gets operational. That means doing the things found wrong in first project correctly on second time around rather than hasting into things and committing same mistakes on the project 2 resulting into delays or monetary losses .

 

[Varunastra]

Great news.......i really like the two island design of queen elizabeth wonder if our designers are considering that specification

 

[Black Widow]

The thing is, that operating fighters from a CATOBAR carrier makes them more capable than from a STOBAR carrier, that's why it's logical that IN wants to have catapults if possible. So when you think about a bigger, more capable carrier, that can be send to way further ranges to project the power, CATOBAR would be the best option.



Catapult take off requires more changes and would be possible but highly unlikely, because it would still remain to be the least capable modern carrier fighter, by far not useful enough to take on PLAN.

Wait a Minute, Do you mean to say CATOBAR fighters are more capable than STOBAR fighters???? Are you living in 70s? This is the era of Guided Bombs, Carpet Bombing is not part of strategy now. Read the comment Below. The balance is needed, The balance between Payload and cost must be maintained.

What is not important is payload/flight, Important is Payload/money...

Modern fighters have a thrust to weight ratio that would allow STOBAR operations.
Modern fighterbombers are not that much heavier... a Mig-29K is not going to carry 5.5 tons of LGBs on an attack mission... it will carry maybe two LGBs and the rest of the stores will be fuel and AAMs and jamming pods. It may not even have all its weapons pylons loaded for a real oeprational mission. The days of carpet bombing have been over for some time now.

If the west had no history of fixed wing CTO operations is is very unlikely they would develop a catapault system either... it was developed when all carrier aircraft were underpowered and could not operate from even quite large carriers without assistance.

Currently the only aircraft you'd put to sea on a carrier that would justify a catapault system would be an AEW or AWACs type aircraft. Again it is a little hard to justify designing a catapault system simply to launch AEW aircraft when other options are appearing on the horizon like AEW airships or UAVs.




And yes the Payload can be increased by carrying lesser Fuel. Take off with lesser fuel and more weapon, once you are off, refuel your plane using MiG29/Su30 or Tanker. (Assume that the war is fought not far from Indian Airstrip).

 

[Mr.Hunt]

Great news.......i really like the two island design of queen elizabeth wonder if our designers are considering that specification

We should allow private shipyards in construction of warships...... There is more scope of innovation & new designs.

 

[sancho]

Agree with you, Catapult carriers are more efficient. But It can delay IAC II. India can get tech knowhow from USA on steam catapult .

Sorry, missed your reply. No we can't get tech know how, we didn't even got the chance to buy steam catapults so far! And yes it might delay things, but that doesn't matter, because with the limited numbers of fighters carriers have, capability is the most important point! Taking off with full payload, simultaneous take off and landing operations and carrying as many fighters as possible will be important points, not if the carrier comes 1 or 2 years later.

(@EMALS: I am sure that USA will not give this technology to India).

Agree.

 

[sudhir007]

I read In other froum that our designer inspect france carrier few yr back and check out the other detail.

 

[pheluda]

Another white elephant - nice. Wonder whose pockets are being lined up these days with these obviously substandard ships. Ship making is not your core competency as a nation - if you want a carrier - commission it from the Russians, British, French or the Americans. God knows they need the jobs. They also have the requisite expertise and certainly know how to meet deadlines. But then - those scams only involve kickbacks - this will produce a ship which might never set sail.

Right you are. Its not our core competency. But atleast we are trying. We r not rebranding chinese aircrafts as our own home grown. Sure it takes time. But this gives a boost to our home grown industry. And we are ready to ride off those waves and wait for that golden period. Can you say that?

And lastly we surely are not standing in long long queues for atta or maida that too at an hugely inflated price. You know there is an old saying "Those who live in glass houses should never throw stones at others."

Thanks anyway for proving myself wrong. I had an idea atleast the common people of Pakistan are matured but not leaded properly by netas.