Genesis
SENIOR MEMBER
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2013
- Messages
- 4,599
- Reaction score
- 24
- Country
- Location
First of all, not all Indians are poor. Secondly, there was a time when China was also dirt poor, under Mao and communism. Only after they enacted free market reforms did they start getting rich. The same thing applies to India as well - we were super socialistic until 1993, which is when we opened our markets. In 20 or 30 years from now, poverty in India will also shrink, just as it did in China. Both countries were the victim of a failed, unscientific, psuedo economic system that kept them poor - but China got rid of that system two or three decades before India did. Hovewer, the choice between freedom and poverty is a false choice - Chinese people are committing a logical fallacy in bringing poverty into any discussion about freedom. They are two different things. It's a way of admitting that chinese people don't enjoy political freedom, but instead of admitting that, laugh at India's poverty to feel better. I'm not talking about you, since you are genuinely discussing it instead of trolling; I'm referring to the fellow who started this discussion with his troll post, and many other such chinese posters. Instead of simply admitting that Indians enjoy political freedoms that chinese don't, they have to bring the unrelated issue of poverty.
Now coming to freedoms - there are many freedoms, and in the context of India and china, what we usually refer to is political freedom. Now despite poverty, it is a fact, an undeniable fact that Indians (rich or poor) do enjoy political freedoms that are comparable to the free world. Anybody, rich or poor can vote and elect their representatives, and have a say in the course of government. If we don't like where the govt is headed, we can kick it out - that's a fact, and you will probably see it in the next general elections in a few months time. We also have elections at state and local levels, and in the recent elections in five states, the ruling party got kicked out of power. What does all this amount to? It amounts to the fact that the govt is very sensitive to the voive of the people, and scared of public opinion - as they shoud be. That they are our servants, not our masters.
When China was dirt poor, they had neither money, nor the ability to change those in power. So Mao and the party could do what they wanted, kill millions through stupid economic policies and mass starvation, and enact ''great leaps'' to death.There was nothing the people could do to change the disastrous govt.
About that part about Indian voters being bribed to vote - it is simply not true. First of all ballots are secret - nobody knows who you voted for, except the electronic machine. By and large India's elections are fully free and fair and transparent, especially after electronic voting was introduced. And coming to your questions of whether a poor person can truly be free - there you are muddying the waters of the topic, by confusing different kinds of freedoms. As I explained before, in this context we are talking about political freedoms, not the freedom to buy a car or apartment of one's choice - which of course, a very poor person does not have the luxury of choosing. But political freedom, freedom from oppresion, freedom to criticize, freedom of expression, freedom of thought, freedom of speech - all this applies to rich and poor, old and young.
Again I would like to say, this question isn't really even about India, I just mean can a poor person, any poor person be free. As I mentioned above, how can a democracy, achieve the same failure as a commi crazy state? You didn't do great leap forward, but the failed policies were there none the less.
Now I'm a pragmatic person, freedom to vote, freedom to express, freedom of thought is not a important if I didn't have food. As to freedom from oppression, can you honestly say nobody is being oppressed in India or even in America? Depends on what your definition of oppressed mean, a lot of protest are stopped in America, while some have the right reasons, due to losing of job that resulted from other than factors that were in their control and such, but even if they weren't oppressed, they rarely if ever result in well actual results.
Freedom to vote matters to those that can directly benefit, like lobbyists, can you honestly say Modi or Gandhi is going to be THE difference in a poor man's life? Chinese may not be able to vote, but by last estimate, more Chinese officials have been sentenced than Indians kicked out due to corruption or other each year. Maybe India is less corrupt due to this, but would you put your money on that?
Expression sure, but to an uneducated person that means nothing, even if all Indians can read, I still have my doubts on the total effectiveness of expression, it has it's merits like Chinese officials getting axed or death, but again, it only matters to those that are full.
As to thought, you can think anything you like, but only a handful of people, chosen by the heavens have the actualy natural born ability to covert thought into useful action.
Lastly I never said Indians cheat in voting, but such tactics like free stuff is used in India, you won't deny it would you and it does have effect on the vote, doesn't it, but in reality it doesn't change the actual situation of these people does it.
Again, I'm wondering can these freedoms be turned into real action? The point of democracy isn't for a poor bum to scream at the top of his lungs, but to be able to live comfortable with rights. Or am I mistaken?