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India set to sign $2.4bn Mirage deal with France Rajat Pandit

Machoman

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NEW DELHI: Faced with a dual threat from China and Pakistan, which have even come together to manufacture fighter jets, India is really cranking up military aviation contracts. Even as the $4.1 billion deal for 10 American C-17 Globemaster-III strategic airlift aircraft awaits the final nod from the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS), another major contract is now headed that way.

Defence ministry sources on Wednesday said the long-awaited deal with France for the upgrade of 52 Mirage-2000 multi-role fighters in IAF's combat fleet is "finally ready" at a cost of almost Rs 11,000 crore ($2.4 billion).

"This is also now going to CCS for approval. Another big contract, which was being progressed simultaneously, for around 450 MICA (interception and aerial combat missiles) systems to arm the upgraded Mirages is also in the final stages now," said a source.

This comes after long-drawn negotiations with French companies Dassault Aviation (aircraft manufacturer), Thales (weapons systems integrator) and MBDA (missile supplier), which were "initially asking for much more", said sources.

Under the contract, the first four to six Mirages will be upgraded in France, while the rest will be retrofitted in India by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) with transfer of technology from the French companies.

This means the overall Mirage upgrade package, including the fire-and-forget MICA missiles and the infrastructure build-up at HAL, will eventually cross the Rs 15,000-crore mark.

It obviously raises questions whether it would be more prudent to simply buy new fighters rather than upgrade older ones at such a huge cost. IAF, however, argues the "retrofitted" Mirages -- with new avionics, radars, mission computers, glass cockpits, helmet-mounted displays, electronic warfare suites, weapon delivery and precision-targeting systems -- would remain "top-notch fighters" for almost two decades more.

With a depleting number of fighter squadrons (each has 16 to 18 jets), down to just 32 from a `sanctioned strength' of 39.5, IAF is going for a mix of upgrades and new inductions to stem its fast-eroding combat edge over even Pakistan.

There is, for instance, the ongoing upgrade of 63 MiG-29s under a $964 million deal inked with Russia in March 2008. Then, India is also progressively inducting the 272 Sukhoi-30MKIs contracted from Russia for around $12 billion. Moreover, the first lot of the around 120 indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft will begin joining the force from end-2013 onwards.

India also wants to ink by December this year the $10.4 billion project for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), in which only the French Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoons are now left in contention after ejection of the American, Russian and Swedish jets.

On top of this all, India hopes to begin inducting 250-300 advanced stealth fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), being co-developed with Russia, from 2020 onwards, in what will be its biggest-ever defence project at around $35 billion.
 
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$2.4 billion for upgradation of 50 planes.

That's around $48 million for upgrading 1 Mirage.

More than cost of 1 Brand New LCA-MK1!

This deal is worse than buying new planes.

If this is what Mirage upgradations are costing India, what MRCA upgradation will cost 15 years later? Imported planes are drying up all budget money on over-expensive maintenance, upgradation etc. :tdown:

The time has come to focus on AMCA and put it on high priority. 10 years later, IAF will realize its mistake of not funding AMCA earlier.

China has taken a lead in investing local R&D. Today, we look better with FGFA and MRCA, but in longer run, China will beat India due to local industry advantage while India will end up paying $100 Billion for FGFA upgradations 20 years later. :disagree:

MRCA = FGFA = slow death.
 
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I can't help wondering if this Indian rapid spending to gain rough parity with China's ramping up of defence spending is a good idea.

China's expansion is focused toward several concrete goals, such as winning a confrontation over the Taiwan straits, maintaining the balance of power on the Korean peninsular, control of the China seas south and east, and working towards blue water power projection to protect its commerce towards Malacca straits and beyond.

Why is India expanding at an equal pace to China? Well it seems to me on the surface of it, there are a couple of reason and their merits vary. One, India is a rapidly growing economy looking to take what it think is its rightful place amongst the traditional great powers, and you can't be a great power without the military heft. Two, to get rid of that nagging feeling of vulnerability that India picked up when it was defeated pretty effortless in 1962. China is expanding and India vowing never to let 1962 repeat, wants to keep pace, matching every China's breakthrough with arm purchases. Three, Pakistan, the eternal foe. India wants to put Pakistani terrorism in the dirt and hopefully Pakistan along with it for all the past grievances.

But these are all vague objectives, what kind of contingency can you plan for against China when China isn't even paying much attention to its western borders except with an eye on stopping terrorist infiltration (hence the SCO and continuing cooperation with Pakistan)? And how much "military heft" do you reckon is enough for a 'great power'? as much as the UK? as much as China? As much as the US? Where do you want to be and how much are you willing to spend to get there on borrowed gear (ie bought without the means of production). And lastly Pakistan, do you really think that conventional military capabilities are what's going to deter Pakistan? You can't afford a war that will derail your growth, Pakistan knows this, and they will keep pushing to the limits by unofficial support for irregulars and Jihadis. They hate you so much and are so fearful that they are grasping live coals in their bare hands to throw in your eyes, even if they get burned. You think that making them feel more vulnerable by conventional capabilities and meddling in Afg. is going to make them renounce support for terrorism?
 
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is the money for the current Mirage upgrade or something else``as MumbaiIndias said 48million is too much for just upgrade 1 mirage2000-5!!

since India has mirage2000 for over a decade now should have degisted mirage's tech by now!
 
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Indian Mirages are from the late 80s and this will be a mid-life upgrade.
 
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You think that making them feel more vulnerable by conventional capabilities and meddling in Afg. is going to make them renounce support for terrorism?

Does Chinese meddling in Afg. make India feel any better?

India is in Afg. just to keep watch on Chinese tourists. So, blame yourself for it. :azn:
 
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I can't help wondering if this Indian rapid spending to gain rough parity with China's ramping up of defence spending is a good idea.

Who told you that all this build up is to have parity with China???? We will never have/ we never want to have parity with China....All we want is to fulfill our aspiration i.e. a respectable regional power and play a significant role in gloabl arena...


China's expansion is focused toward several concrete goals, such as winning a confrontation over the Taiwan straits, maintaining the balance of power on the Korean peninsular, control of the China seas south and east, and working towards blue water power projection to protect its commerce towards Malacca straits and beyond.

Why you think our goals are any different than yours....

- Maintain the balance on Eastern Front
- Discourage any misadventure on western neighbour
- Control the Indian Ocean(sphere of our interest)
- Blue water power projection to protect our interests...


Why is India expanding at an equal pace to China? Well it seems to me on the surface of it, there are a couple of reason and their merits vary. One, India is a rapidly growing economy looking to take what it think is its rightful place amongst the traditional great powers, and you can't be a great power without the military heft. Two, to get rid of that nagging feeling of vulnerability that India picked up when it was defeated pretty effortless in 1962. China is expanding and India vowing never to let 1962 repeat, wants to keep pace, matching every China's breakthrough with arm purchases. Three, Pakistan, the eternal foe. India wants to put Pakistani terrorism in the dirt and hopefully Pakistan along with it for all the past grievances.

I have answered this above...Stop looking at India from the prism of China.....It is foolish not to prepare for worst, in the same token it is foolish to map every move of your modernization viz-a-viz China... and guess what - we are not

But these are all vague objectives,
What????

what kind of contingency can you plan for against China when China isn't even paying much attention to its western borders except with an eye on stopping terrorist infiltration (hence the SCO and continuing cooperation with Pakistan)? And how much "military heft" do you reckon is enough for a 'great power'? as much as the UK? as much as China? As much as the US?

Modernization never stops...You keep on improving...Anyways the current objective is regional power projection...We are working on it...

Where do you want to be and how much are you willing to spend to get there on borrowed gear (ie bought without the means of production).
With all due respect we are still not spending as much as some neighbours in the east...Anyhow we are working on indegenous capability. All these are stop gap measures and with good economy - affordable

And lastly Pakistan, do you really think that conventional military capabilities are what's going to deter Pakistan? You can't afford a war that will derail your growth, Pakistan knows this, and they will keep pushing to the limits by unofficial support for irregulars and Jihadis. They hate you so much and are so fearful that they are grasping live coals in their bare hands to throw in your eyes, even if they get burned. You think that making them feel more vulnerable by conventional capabilities and meddling in Afg. is going to make them renounce support for terrorism?

The answer is a big yes. An overwhelming conventional superiority will deter Pakistan. Any reason they are arming themselves to teeth by nukes??? Anyhow It is always better to negotiate from a position of strength
 
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heh I kind of expected an indigent and uninteresting answer like this. Nevermind, just thinking out loud so to speak.

And I wonder why my friend Raj wasted his time replying to a stupid post!!
 
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$48 million / aircraft for MLU? This simply can't be correct.

If it is, I'm very sorry for the violated indian tax payer --not that it's my money or my business. But still.
 
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IAF, however, argues the "retrofitted" Mirages -- with new avionics, radars, mission computers, glass cockpits, helmet-mounted displays, electronic warfare suites, weapon delivery and precision-targeting systems -- would remain "top-notch fighters" for almost two decades more.

are they making mirage upto Rafale !!
like they did with mig-29 to upgrade it upto mig-35..

that's means , MMRCA going for Eurofighter !
 
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uhhh wwwhy spend that much money upgrading these fighters?? Isnt it smarter to procure an extra squadron or two of Rafales or the Eurofighter? Spending money for the sake of spending money is kind of dumb...a new Rafale at a marginally higher price is far better than upgraded Mirages for the long term.
 
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$48 million / aircraft for MLU? This simply can't be correct.

If it is, I'm very sorry for the violated indian tax payer --not that it's my money or my business. But still.

48 million is a lot it is what the US Navy paid for the F/A18 E/F in 2007, yes you are correct this expenditure seems wasteful. Perhaps the Indians want to retain their only nuclear capable fighter and the French are exploiting a captive customer .
 
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uhhh wwwhy spend that much money upgrading these fighters?? Isnt it smarter to procure an extra squadron or two of Rafales or the Eurofighter? Spending money for the sake of spending money is kind of dumb...a new Rafale at a marginally higher price is far better than upgraded Mirages for the long term.

Wun be surprised if the department was allocated the funds to upgrade the hardware and rather then report a surplus they spent it all. Its quite common among govt agencies to spend their all budgeted funds on senseless items. Reporting a surplus would typically mean a budget cut the following year. That and some corruption etc.
 
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