India selects EF, Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

[marcos98]

Rafale is no. 1 in MMRCA evaluations
Just why has the Indian Air Force (IAF) short-listed the French Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon ahead of four other contenders, including the US F-16 and F/A-18 fighters, for the Rs 42, 000 crore medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) contract?

The down selection at the end of a prolonged evaluation of the six fighter jets was evidently based on the fact that the Rafale and the Typhoon were the most modern airframes and better equipped compared to F/A-18 Super Hornet and F-16 IN of the US, MiG-35 of Russia, and JAS-39 Gripen of Sweden.

The Rafale and the Typhoon met most of the 630 technical attributes mentioned in the request for proposal (RFP) by the ministry of defence, while the others lacked either in performance or had limitations in terms of future upgrades.

“Rafale figures a notch higher than Typhoon in terms of performance and involves easier adaptability as it is logistically and operationally similar to Mirage-2000, used extensively by our boys during the Kargil conflict in 1999. The French government has also cleared the technology transfer, including the AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar,” sources in the IAF told Deccan Chronicle.

The other discreet offering by Dassault Aviation too made sense: save on the $1.5 billion project to upgrade 52 Mirage-2000 jets by acquiring the Rafale.

Interestingly, all six fighters were in the race till April 17, the deadline for submission of modified offset proposals. The representatives of these firms were informed of the Union government’s decision to relax the offset policy mentioned in the request for proposal (RFP).

The original rider that half the value of the $ 10.5 billion contract be passed on to domestic firms was modified, fixing it at 30 per cent of the deal. “We were all expecting a word on extension of commercial proposals on the last day, April 28, but got to know that only Dassault Aviation and Eurofighter have been invited for discussions,” said a representative of Saab AB.

Those who lost out have made it known that they would raise issues concerning the price and other attributes of Rafale and Typhoon. The two aircraft are said to be the highest priced among those in the contest when looked at from a unit price point of view. Second, the Eurofighter’s AESA radar is still under development. Only the two US fighters have operational AESA radars on them.

If India finally picks the Rafale, it would be only the second air force after the French Air Force to induct these fighters into its fleet.

India has asked Dassault SA and Eurofighter GmbH to hold their price bids until the end of the year. The deal is expected to be signed by March 2012.

The Final Two

Eurofighter Typhoon – Germany/Britain/Italy/Spain

Dassault Rafale -- France

Out of the contest

Lockheed Martin’s F-16IN – USA

Boeing’s F/A-18 Super Hornet – USA

SAAB’s Gripen JAS-39 – Sweden

Mikoyan-Gureywich’s MiG-35 – Russia

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/channels/nation/south/rafale-typhoon-score-merit-126

 

[SpArK]

GE's military engine business takes another hit | Business Courier

 

[kingdurgaking]

Top India analyst criticises MMRCA decision
The Hindu : News / International : Top India analyst criticises MMRCA decision

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

now dont shoot the messenger.

The biggest problem with American jets is that... in every angle it is a tedious process... buying is a tedious one... operation them at our will is a tedious.... on top of everything getting a upgrade is worst of all.. we cant gurantee that upgrade can happen... they can simply deny it...

Either way Rafale or EFT both being costly is one of the wise decision... hoping the most suitable bird win

 

[SpArK]

Who'll Buy This Fulcrum Now?​

They're pronouncing its doom already in the Russian press. Predicting that the official elimination of the MiG-35 from India's M-MRCA fighter competition means curtains for the programme, such as it is. If that's true, the MiG-35 will be the one Fulcrum that nobody ever bought.

The facts are pretty brutal. A victory in the Indian tender was virtually mandatory for MiG to be able to generate the economies of scale that would allow it to sell 72 MiG-35s at an affordable unit price to the Russian Air Force. A Russian government indent for a certain number of MiG-35s was hinged to the platform's selection by the IAF -- not the other way round. With the MiG-35 officially out, the programme could effectively collapse, with structural implications for RAC-MiG Corp too. Chances are that the MiG-35's reported performance in the MMRCA competition (it was rejected with 14 flaws, most notably pertaining to its engines reports suggest) will likely kill its chances, if any, with other potential customers in Asia and Latin America. At the risk of invoking a touch of sentiment, after half a century of doing business with the Indian Air Force (it started in 1963 with the delivery of the first MiG-21-F13s), this may just have been MiG's last chance to sell India aircraft. There's even talk that in the continuing consolidation in the Russian aerospace industry, the Mikoyan-Gurevich identity may be gone forever in a merger. MiG's fortunes have been rough for years. The MiG-35's failure in the M-MRCA (I find it hard to believe the Russians really held on to a hope) may just have been like Kano's fatality in Mortal Kombat.

The ubiquitous No.154 (the visible MiG-35) is more a proof-of-concept platform (previously designated MiG-29M/M2; see photo above-right from Aero India 2005) than a type, and this was raised at various times with the UAC. The company did however field prototypes for the FET phase. There were several things that the MiG-35 had going for it: the IAF already operates MiG-29s (and could therefore appreciate the advancements in the new Fulcrum, not to mention inventory/infrastructure savings), the MiG-35 was competitively priced (~$40-mil a pop) and was closer to the definition of an M-MRCA than at least three of the others. But, as we now know, the aircraft was simply outperformed across the board during field evaluation. The two MiG-35 prototypes (No. 961 and 967) participated in trials in India (Bangalore, Jaisalmer and Leh) in October 2009 and in Akhtubinsk and Zhukovsky in April last year.

Among the many things that weighed against the MiG-35 -- apart from its field performance -- was the fact that India would in the next couple of years have a sizeable and growing fleet of souped up MiG-29s -- 62 old MiG-29s are being upgraded to the UPG standard, which gives the fleet the Zhuk-M2E radar, the Thales Topsight helmet mounted sight, Sagem navigation system, OLS-UEM infrared search and track sensor, an Indian DARE EW suite and a new glass cockpit featuring colour MFDs.

It will be interesting to see what those 14 flaws were that the IAF found in the MiG-35 -- those should be out sooner rather than later.


Live Fist

 

[SpArK]

Why isn’t India buying American fighter jets?
​

India has decided not to buy American F-16's or F/A-18's for the biggest defense tender in its history -- a pending $10 billion-plus contract for 126 multi-role combat aircraft. Following field trials, it has instead shortlisted the Rafale, made by France's Dassault, and the Typhoon, produced by a European consortium. Skeptics of Indo-U.S. strategic partnership view this as yet another Indian snub to the United States, arguing that the promise of Indo-American entente that was to follow from the historic civilian-nuclear agreement of 2008 has proven hollow.

The charge is that American proponents of closer cooperation with India have oversold India's willingness or ability to partner with the United States. India is unreliable, they argue -- just look at its failure to enact liability legislation that would bring the 2008 civilian-nuclear agreement into force. For the skeptics, Indian foreign policy, rather than tilting in a more pro-American direction, remains guided by non-alignment and an abiding concern for strategic autonomy -- if not an outright hostility to the West, as in the bad old days of the Cold War.

While India's decision is certainly disappointing, this analysis is flawed.

First, the United States has a national interest in Indian strategic autonomy, because one important consequence of India's geopolitical ascent is the ballast it provides to an Asian order not subject to China's tutelage. From an American national interest perspective, it is vital that India retain strategic autonomy by growing its internal capabilities and building external partnerships with a range of important powers, including not just America but also Japan, South Korea, Australia, Indonesia, and European states.

The civilian-nuclear deal, advanced U.S. defense sales to India, technology-sharing, and other American initiatives have been designed to build Indian strength and promote Indian development. The mercantilistic idea that the ultimate goal of American policy towards India is creating a lucrative new market for American defense companies is not credible.

Second, India is not non-aligned, whatever the results of one defense sale. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh submitted his government to a no-confidence vote in 2008 over the nuclear deal with the United States -- risking the leadership of his coalition over the future of relations with the United States. India's military exercises more with America's armed forces than with any other, and the United States has emerged as a leading arms supplier to India, successfully selling it reconnaissance aircraft, transport aircraft, naval vessels, and other advanced platforms. Beyond the United States, India's growing set of partnerships are almost entirely with states along the Indo-Pacific littoral that fear the consequences of overweening Chinese power and seek to balance it.

India's double-digit annual defense budget increases, and India's emergence as the biggest arms importer in the world, aren't directed at the United States, or Europe, or Japan. They are undertaken with an eye on China first and Pakistan second. Yes, India's prime minister recently attended a BRICS summit -- though an Indian Foreign Ministry spokesman made clear beforehand that India vests more importance in the IBSA grouping (India, Brazil, South Africa) of developing democracies -- because they share common values. The BRICS, of course, do not.

Third, it's worth considering the perspective from New Delhi on the aircraft sale. Despite considerable progress in recent years, the United States historically has not been what Indians would call a reliable supplier of military hardware. To the contrary: It has sanctioned India repeatedly, cutting off sales of military platforms, technologies, and spare parts over several different periods. The United States has also provided advanced weaponry to India's key rivals (Pakistan since 1954, China during the 1980s).

Politically, an Indian government under frequent attack for moving closer to Washington stands to benefit from insulating itself against yet more charges of favoritism towards America by buying U.S. fighters. Another core political objective in this context is to avoid the kind of corruption scandals that have marred previous Indian defense purchases (most notably the Bofors scandal of the 1980s, which brought down an Indian government). The possibility for a potential scandal over the role of American political pressure should India buy American is a charge the country's political masters are keen to avoid, and are now immune from.

A related political factor is the what my Indian colleague Dhruva Jaishankar describes as "the general drift" in U.S.-India relations, which "has only increased both countries' resolve to drive harder bargains. This period of drift was initiated by the Obama administration's early missteps on China and Afghanistan and has persisted despite the president's visit to India last November as a consequence of political developments in both capitals." The underperformance of the bilateral relationship over the past two years is manifested in this week's decision on the aircraft tender.

Fourth, India's decision not to shortlist the American combat aircraft was a technical determination. India's existing fleet of Russian and French aircraft, and the ground-based support infrastructure for air operations, are not closely compatible with American combat aircraft. Some argue that European fighter aircraft are more advanced than older models of U.S. combat aircraft; it is reported that several performed better in flight trials over Indian territory than their U.S. competitors. The American planes are certainly more expensive, which matters in a country with more poor people than in all of Sub-Saharan Africa. The Indian cabinet will make the ultimate political decision on the tender.

This is no defense of India's decision. The great benefit of a U.S. company securing the contract for 126 multi-role combat aircraft wasn't the immediate benefit of a lucrative defense sale. It was the establishment of a long-term supply and training relationship between the air forces of the world's biggest democracies, great powers with the capability to fundamentally shape security order in Asia over the coming century.

India will do fine with its Rafales or Typhoons. But it's a shame longer-range, strategic considerations didn't seem to drive this decision. Leaders in Beijing and Islamabad are probably smiling, even as those of us in Washington are not.

Why isn

 

[Markus]

^^ You prepare for the threats you face. We are getting a 5th generation fighter for our needs anyway.

With the US loosing the MMRCA contract, they will now go out of the way to ensure that the Indian navy expresses interest in the F35 STOVL.

In the coming months, its the Americans who are going to beg the Indian navy to buy their F35, not the other way around.

 

[Bang Galore]

Exclusive: U.S. long feared India arms-sale snags, cable shows

By Jim Wolf

WASHINGTON | Fri Apr 29, 2011

(Reuters) - The United States has fretted for years that its ties to Pakistan and past sanctions against India would harm its efforts to win arms deals such as the $11 billion fighter order that slipped away from two U.S. suppliers this week, a U.S. diplomatic cable showed.

"Our ability to seize the opportunities presented by this newly improved environment is limited by the commonly held view that the U.S. will not prove to be a reliable supplier of defense equipment," Timothy Roemer, the U.S. ambassador to India, said in an October 29, 2009, cable to Michele Flournoy, a top Pentagon official then about to visit India.

U.S. officials from President Barack Obama down subsequently pushed hard to sell U.S. fighter jets to India to crown expanding security ties. The United States also is eyeing tens of billions of dollars in other potential arms deals with India, the cable showed.

In the end, India shortlisted two European aircraft over Boeing Co's (BA.N) F/A-18 SuperHornet and Lockheed Martin Corp's (LMT.N) F-16, company officials said on Thursday.

Lockheed and Boeing are the Pentagon's No. 1 and No. 2 supplier, respectively. Each is pressing to boost sales in India, which plans to spend about $50 billion in the next five years to modernize old Soviet-era weapons and technology.

Roemer announced Thursday he was leaving his post for professional and family reasons. "The new environment" reference in his 2009 cable concerned the emergence of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's government with "a clear mandate not beholden to coalition partners" for the first time since post-Cold War U.S.-Indian strategic ties took shape.

U.S. competitors use the economic sanctions imposed by Washington after Indian nuclear tests in 1998 to try to harm U.S. sales prospects, the cable said.

They also point to "our close defense relationship with Pakistan as rationale that the U.S. should not be trusted," Roemer wrote in the message obtained by the anti-secrecy group WikiLeaks and made available to Reuters by a third party.

The cable cited one unnamed source as saying the Indian army will never put U.S. equipment in divisions facing Pakistan, India's historic foe, "because they expect the U.S. will stop military supplies in the event of Indo-Pak hostilities."

"DEEPLY DISAPPOINTED"

The U.S. Defense Department said on Friday it was "deeply disappointed" by rejection of the U.S. bid to supply 126 new fighter aircraft. Instead, India set up a contest between France's Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon made by Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain.

"We look forward to continuing to grow and develop our defense partnership with India," said Navy Commander Leslie Hull-Ryde, a Pentagon spokeswoman, "and remain convinced that the United States offers our defense partners around the globe the world's most advanced and reliable technology."

She said U.S. officials were closely studying Indian-provided documentation on the short-listing decision, and looked forward to a full "debrief" from the Indian Air Force.

A State Department spokeswoman, Heide Fulton, declined to comment on Roemer's 2009 cable as a matter of policy.

A senior State Department official said the United States was not aware of any allegations of impropriety "so far" in the fighter matter. The full field included the two American planes, three Europeans and a Russian model.

Asked about the possible impact of any Indian concerns over U.S. reliability as a supplier, the official said the elimination of Boeing and Lockheed seemed to be based on technical considerations.

"I think, if anything, the concerns are that it was only made on that basis and without looking at the wider strategic implications of this," the official said.

In the past three years, India has agreed to buy some $10 billion in U.S. military hardware including six Lockheed C-130J military transport planes and eight long-range Boeing P-8 maritime reconnaissance and anti-submarine warfare aircraft.

Exclusive: U.S. long feared India arms-sale snags, cable shows | Reuters

 

[kingdurgaking]

Finally me happy that we have moved away from US on this key thing... US already are getting a huge pie... i dont understand why they are so concerned of this $10 billion... dont they understand what they have done to us so far??... we have lived in a unstable region funded by them to break us into smaller countries... yet every time they continue to supply our foe with modern tech... in 1965 they had radars of US orgin.. we had binoculors in our border... 1971 they had provided aircraft career support... sanction on top of sanctions.... they had with drawn everything on Tejas on a single day...


Finally me to shifting my favourite from EFT to Rafale.. though EFT looks good but sanctions makes them un reliable.... France had been our side for so long.. They are giving us everything we want with Rafale.... and on top Kaveri for LCA(my favourite)...

Rafale all the way

 

[GORKHALI]

INTERESTING FACTSHEETS OF RAFALE ...COURTESY BR

 

[SpArK]

^^^
I have posted these before in the main thread. its interesting to see the unit procurement costs..

 

[KS]

India will do fine with its Rafales or Typhoons. But it's a shame longer-range, strategic considerations didn't seem to drive this decision. Leaders in Beijing and Islamabad are probably smiling, even as those of us in Washington are not.

Why isn

I dont know why the Yankees are taking this to their heart after all its business and nothing personal.

They are already getting about 10 billion dollar defence deals in 16 C-17s,12 P-8Is,12 C-130Js,145 M777s and an assorted group of other deals for Harpoon missiles,sensor fusion bombs etc.

Indeed they should be happy that they have got so much in such a few time, considering their history of sanctioning us even if water doesn't come in the White House loo.

 

[luckyyy]

^^^
I have posted these before in the main thread. its interesting to see the unit procurement costs..

unit procurement costs is the fectory menufecturing cost of procucing , it does not cantain the RnD and the development costs..
a buyer however has to pay the program unit cost , which is very high for boh rafale anf EF..140ml$

i still think that MMRCA will be a economic blunder...

 

[kingdurgaking]

^^^^ one of the reason is if you have there fighter with a predominant numbers you are bound to listen to them... They want India under there boundry away from Russia and China... they can easily arm twist us in the name of sanctions....

 

[SpArK]

I dont know why the Yankees are taking this to their heart after all its business and nothing personal.

They are already getting about 10 billion dollar defence deals in 16 C-17s,12 P-8Is,12 C-130Js,145 M777s and an assorted group of other deals for Harpoon missiles,sensor fusion bombs etc.

Indeed they should be happy that they have got so much in such a few time and considering their history of sanctioning us even if water doesn't come in the White House loo.

I think fighter jets are of a different league and Americans have been advocating the US jets with heavy campaigning and the tactics of pressure from diplomats saying the deal will decide what the future Indo-US relation holds. They seriously miscalculated .

If ever F-18 was among the down-select with Rafale and the catfish looking fighter , we can be rest assured that the hornet will be getting deal.. because the americans will be doing all the dirty work behind the doors and openly putting the government in a messy situation.

Its good that we have closed the door. It also means we will never fly an american fighter jet ever, unless the IN goes to pending list of F-35 orders.

 

[skybolt]