What's new

India selects EF, Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

Who is now the Favorite?


  • Total voters
    211
  • Poll closed .
the rafale even encountered some problems during aero india........ Hope the technical issues are nothing serious

yes, HOPE... I dont want a one sided victory for EF..Rafale is in Top two now..They need to give a little competition to EF (even though it seems pretty hard for them )...At least this much is expected from Frenchies...:D
 
.
yes, HOPE... I dont want a one sided victory for EF..Rafale is in Top two now..They need to give a little competition to EF (even though it seems pretty hard for them )...At least this much is expected from Frenchies...:D
.
.
Don't wory be happy.
Because Rafale will win and there will be now contest with EF in that matter.
.
 
. . .
.
.
Khayal achha hai.
Tabhi to baki sare competitor kchha........i mean kccha hai.
:rofl:

Good one...

Has the engine in the rafale started working..? I mean its thrust was pathetic...
 
. .
I feel, Rafale is going to be the winner. IAF is well acquited with previous dassault platform, which was highly successful. Moreover on ToT front, the french are very reliable.
Engines r also doing well and they performed very high sortie rate during Libiyan operations. But yes the MoD is there to decide, the price propositions...
 
.
I think 1400 T/R modules for EFT is overstated compared to 800 for Rafale.
the EFT's nose is not that large compared to Rafale's.
As far as i think they are more or less equal Rafale's slightly 19 and EFT maybe 20 (sizewize)
 
.
I think 1400 T/R modules for EFT is overstated compared to 800 for Rafale.
the EFT's nose is not that large compared to Rafale's.
As far as i think they are more or less equal Rafale's slightly 19 and EFT maybe 20 (sizewize)

No it isn't the Captor E radar is estimated with a diameter of up to 700mm, which is comparable to MKI, while the RBE 2 is estimated at 550 to 600mm. But you are right, it's not mainly the size of the nose that makes the difference, but the integration of the FSO into the nose of the Rafale!


From a post I made on IDF:

The EF was developed for cold war style air combats and that's why the development was aimed on comparable air superioirty fiighters and why the most important capabilities till today are, big radar, high speed, maximum BVR missile load and the high maneuverability of course. All this makes it to one of the best fighters in this field against all 4th, or older gen fighters, but in future, things will be different!
Even the EF consortium understood that radar will not be very useful against 5th gen fighters and that's why other features are important to detect the enemy and that's why they also added latest IRST and EWS capabilities besides the radar:
EF-passive_detection.jpg


As you can see, according the EF consortium itself, passive detection and passive SA are the important capabilities for future air combats and not the active radar!


Which brings us directly to the Rafale, where you first have to understand, that the diameter of Rafales radar is not limited by the size of the nose but by the integration of FSO!

As you can see on the following pics, the FSO is fully integrated into the nose, which takes away internal space, that otherwise could be used for a bigger radar. The PIRATE of the EF on the other side, is mounted on the side of the nose, as an external part and even the retractable refuelling probe is not fully integrated, to safe more internal space:

rafale_nose-view.jpg

FUX_2108.jpg

4698837189_700d48317f.jpg

nellis10etmg4477.jpg

2916.jpg



Some more pics of the RBE 2 / FSO combo:

rbe2aesaosfipbw2.jpg

RBE-2+AESA-1.jpg



Especially this last pic, of the back side shows the difference of the diameter that the radar has in the front and that it could have without the FSO.
Now why would the French limit their fighter in such this way and reduce the radar detection range?
Because they understood from the start, that passive detection features and fully passive SA as an equal alternative to the radar will be important for the future!
That why they compromised purposely on radar diameter/detection range (which doesn't tell you much about how capable the radar is), to integrate more passive sensors (IR and TV channel), as well as focus on fully passive SA and sophisticated geolocating capabilities, to remain less observable, but fully capable in air combats as well as ground strikes, without the need to use an active radar!

These capabilities had impressed in several exercises, but now even in real combat in Libya, where numerous reports are praising the the FSO / SPECTRA combo as the key advantage of Rafale! Be it the penetration of enemy airspace in reconnaissance, air superiority, or strike roles (while Libyan air defence and air force were fully operational), the long range target identification capabilities of FSO, or the passive geolocation and weapon cueing capabilities of SPECTRA in SEAD. All this was done today and with the F3 version, while India will get even the F3+ with further improved passive sensors and more capabilities in addition to the AESA radar.
 
. .
No it isn't the Captor E radar is estimated with a diameter of up to 700mm, which is comparable to MKI, while the RBE 2 is estimated at 550 to 600mm. But you are right, it's not mainly the size of the nose that makes the difference, but the integration of the FSO into the nose of the Rafale!:

thanks a lot as i understand EFT housing a large radar alone is not going to be a big capability in future unless it has better Passive sensors as well and as the size of both fighters is not much different then Rafale compromizing on Radar may allow them to form a more balanced Active/Passive sensor mix as compared to EFT which would be tilted towards Active Sensors?????

According to the bolded part Captor-E will be almost as capable as PAK-FA/FGFA radar????? but PAK-FA/FGFA being a larger fighter would again be able to house a much balanced Active/Passive sensor mix as compared to EFT???

Rafale's A2G advantages over EFT would become Negligent if India chooses EFT.

Also this tender will go to the Lowest bidder??? So doesn't that make it a giveaway there's no way EADS can out-quote Dassualt as 2 EFT = 3 Rafales costwise.

Unless the EADS have offered partnership to India which includes considerable work-share in current and future techs & a Share of profit from Future sales. Dassault's gonna find that hard to beat unless they offer partnership atleast for future upgrades but they won't do that.

I think we should go for EFT if we're offered 100% TOT / workshare in future upgrades / Immunity against Sanctions / % of gross revenue on future sales. As for keeping the French Happy we should buy 100-150 NeuroNs and Finalize Snecma-Kaveri and order more Scorpenes and a few Mistrals. oh i forgot the Fennecs and Maybe even the NH-90 if it's good enough.
 
.
thanks a lot as i understand EFT housing a large radar alone is not going to be a big capability in future unless it has better Passive sensors as well and as the size of both fighters is not much different then Rafale compromizing on Radar may allow them to form a more balanced Active/Passive sensor mix as compared to EFT which would be tilted towards Active Sensors?????

Exactly, the EF radar is very good, no doubt about that, but radar range is one of the few fields were it really is superior. The RBE 2 AESA is 3 to 5 years more mature and proven and will be fully multi mode capable when India gets the first fighters. It also detects 40 targets and can engage 8 of them, which is very high compared to other radars (Zhuk AE 30/6, APG 80 20/4), jamming features of the radar are under development and even more promising are the future upgrades with GaN modules as well as additional radar arrays for up to 360° detection, comparable to Pak Fa.
But radar, even AESA radar will only be good against 4.5 gen fighters, or older of course, 5th gen fighters will be detected only with it only at very short ranges and that's where passive sensors, like IRST, TV, ESM/ECM... will be a way bigger advantage, not to mention that it is an advantage even today!


According to the bolded part Captor-E will be almost as capable as PAK-FA/FGFA radar????? but PAK-FA/FGFA being a larger fighter would again be able to house a much balanced Active/Passive sensor mix as compared to EFT??

I doubt that it would be as capable as the final Pak Fa radar, but comparable to a 700mm Zhuk AE in upgrade MKIs for sure. The Captor M was even pretty comparable to the Bars radar when it comes to range (estimated at 160Km vs 200Km against a target of 5m²).
The biggest advantage for Pak Fa though will be stealth, even if EF T3B would get a comparable radar, it will have a way bigger RCS, so that alone makes the EF easier to detect than the Pak Fa. The passive sensors of Pak Fa / FGFA are not clear so far, but IAF already seems to but a focus on the that as well.

Rafale's A2G advantages over EFT would become Negligent if India chooses EFT.

No, even if we pay all the money for the weapons and additional techs, the Rafale will remain to be the better fighter in that field. It can carry the better A2G loads, has the better weapon package and was even designed for good low level flight performance and manneuverability.
On the other side, integrate a 90kN Kaveri Snemca engine to Rafale + upgrade it with HMS + external missile stations and the EF has no advantage in A2A anymore, because the Rafale is already too close in that area.


Also this tender will go to the Lowest bidder??? So doesn't that make it a giveaway there's no way EADS can out-quote Dassualt as 2 EFT = 3 Rafales costwise.

Purely based on cost, I would say yes and that's even why I say, they use the EF to pressure Dassault to lower the price even more, or give better side deals. However, the industrial and political part will play a big role as well, because getting as much as possible to improve our own industry is a key goal of the MMRCA and with such big companies like BAE, EADS, or 4 x countries, the EF has some good points in these fields.
If the industrial and political offers are that good, that the shortfalls of the fighter itself and the high costs would be worth it, the EF can win, otherwise the Rafale is the obvious choice!
 
. .
1944235.jpg


Saint-Dizier Airshow 2011 - Rear view of the M88-2 engine that powers Dassault’s Rafale

1938833.jpg
 
. .
Back
Top Bottom