India selects EF, Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

[luckyyy]

I don't think Typhoon is going to cost us more. In fact Rafale will cost just as much as the Typhoon. The European missiles are extremely expensive. With Rafale we have no option but to go for Meteor($2 million) and MICA($1.6 million). A single aircraft with 10 missiles(6 Meteor + 4 MICA) would carry missiles worth $19 million. That's crazy.

With Typhoon we have the option to go with Sidewinder($3,50,000) and AIM-120C($5,00,000) or even AIM-120D($1 million).
A completely loaded Typhoon with 14 missiles(8 AIM-120D + 6 Sidewinders) would carry missiles worth just $10 million.

So every time Typhoon makes a sortie in a war, it shoots down more enemies and saves $9 million. Remember, that's just one sortie, and a single aircraft does 20-40 sorties even in short wars.

With same no. of missiles, the difference becomes $10.5 million. That's huge. The Typhoon will recover its costs within two sorties. And start to become cheaper than Rafale after the second sortie.

Guess which aircraft's cheaper now...
credit jagjitnatt IDF

nobody can call the aim 120 d outdated or even old...... its the main bvr missile of the f 22 raptor, and the best in the world right now on par with meteor

that's realy nice/cool calculations...

 

[dbc]

nobody can call the aim 120 d outdated or even old...... its the main bvr missile of the f 22 raptor, and the best in the world right now on par with meteor

AIM-120D is not cleared for export and the Meteor is a RAM jet propelled 'skid to turn' missile, lethal against less maneuverable targets (blimp or large bomber) not so much against agile fighters.

 

[Bagee]

The one major issue that many of you have overlooked is that with Euro Fighter we become an Actual partner in the program, not like Austria, Saudi Arabia, etc. With Rafale, we are just TOT customers.....like Scorpene Subs....take a good look at how wonderful that worked out. Also, take into account how the French went to supply Agostas to the Pakstani navy with slightly better tech, AIP and more! S, now the French have stated we are willing to re think our stratgic relation with Pakistan. Funny don;t you think? Our future is better served with the Germans who actually love India and who happen to be a major partner in the Typhoon. They have also denied the sales of their subs to Pakistan. it is also where Israel gets her subs. The French jumped on Libya to showcase their abilities. Nothing more nothing less.

grt thought indeed look at arjun and lepord a2 germany has always been genuine

 

[Jon Snow]

AIM-120D is not cleared for export and the Meteor is a RAM jet propelled 'skid to turn' missile, lethal against less maneuverable targets (blimp or large bomber) not so much against agile fighters.

pretty sure it will be cleared in the next few years( they do have to export it with the f 35 anyways )

 

[sancho]

pretty sure it will be cleared in the next few years( they do have to export it with the f 35 anyways )

Not to European countries like UK, or Italy, that want to use METEOR on F35 as well. You have to understand that the Europeans as a whole (not only France) wants to be more independent in the choice of weapons from US. That's why they replace their older US missiles with new European, or why they ask for source codes of F35, which they don't get.
so if even they have issues with the US in these fields, why should we make us dependent on them?

 

[kingdurgaking]

I don't think Typhoon is going to cost us more. In fact Rafale will cost just as much as the Typhoon. The European missiles are extremely expensive. With Rafale we have no option but to go for Meteor($2 million) and MICA($1.6 million). A single aircraft with 10 missiles(6 Meteor + 4 MICA) would carry missiles worth $19 million. That's crazy.

With Typhoon we have the option to go with Sidewinder($3,50,000) and AIM-120C($5,00,000) or even AIM-120D($1 million).
A completely loaded Typhoon with 14 missiles(8 AIM-120D + 6 Sidewinders) would carry missiles worth just $10 million.

So every time Typhoon makes a sortie in a war, it shoots down more enemies and saves $9 million. Remember, that's just one sortie, and a single aircraft does 20-40 sorties even in short wars.

With same no. of missiles, the difference becomes $10.5 million. That's huge. The Typhoon will recover its costs within two sorties. And start to become cheaper than Rafale after the second sortie.

Guess which aircraft's cheaper now...
credit jagjitnatt IDF

nobody can call the aim 120 d outdated or even old...... its the main bvr missile of the f 22 raptor, and the best in the world right now on par with meteor

EFT is a chota MKI... why do you want another MKI form in the arsenal .... EFT technology is good ... but why take the risk of sanctions...
Secondly Rafale is giving full ToT, source code , etc etc... It is very competitive.. It is sanction free..

 

[Jon Snow]

EFT is a chota MKI... why do you want another MKI form in the arsenal .... EFT technology is good ... but why take the risk of sanctions...
Secondly Rafale is giving full ToT, source code , etc etc... It is very competitive.. It is sanction free..

eft sanctions wont affect us as we will have full tot and production line in india..... Eft is not a mini mki, just by having a far smaller rcs it will have completely different role in the iaf.....
Also we will be partners in the project getting profits from future eft sales and upgrades....it is similar to mki in the way that as partners in the program we define what upgrades we want thereby making it tailormade for indian conditions...... French supported us during sanctions but they also sell their latest tech to pakistan like agosta subs and avionics hence they are not to be trusted, they are also robbing us in mirage upgrade deal, you can expect to pay just as much or probably higher when we upgrade the rafale( and there will be a hell of a lot more rafales than mirages in our inventory)

as for the lack of a2g in eft.... It can currently provide cas and fire lgb and paveway 2/3, when we upgrade to tranche 3( if the europeans cant afford it doesnt mean we cant)it will be as good as the rafale in a2g while retaining superiority in a2a.....its aesa is better than the rafale, it has more composites than the rafale(82 vs 75), the m 88 is not reliable as was seen in the aero india, the ej 200 is highr thrust and less maintenance hungry.... Hence making the eft the wiser choice

 

[luckyyy]

[...............

 

[Jon Snow]

as for maintenance - one of the main parts that require lots of maintenance is the engine

Overview
Engine of the Eurofighter Typhoon

Description
The EJ200 is an advanced augmented low-BPR turbofan designed for the propulsion of agile aircraft at Mach numbers up to at least 2. It is fully modular, and allows for on-condition maintenance with built-in engine health monitoring and test equipment. Low maintenance and life-cycle cost, along with high reliability, have been prime design criteria. Compared with previous-generation engines (Eurojet nominate the F404, F414, RB199 and M88) the EJ200 has "two to four compressor stages less, up to two turbine stages less, and up to one-third fewer rotating parts". The EJ200 is claimed to combine the highest thrust-to-weight ratio with the most simple engine architecture. The EJ200 has a three-stage fan, and five-stage high pressure compressor driven by single-stage air cooled turbines with single crystal blade technology. Brush seals are widely used instead of labyrinth seals in the air system.The EJ200 engine development programme was structured in four phases : Phase 1, Technology Acquisition. This phase began in 1985, immediately before the formal establishment of the international management companies for the airframe and engine. The broad design of the engine was completed in 1986.Phase 2, Design Verification. The first Design Verification Engine (DVE) was tested in November 1988. Superficially, but not in detail, it resembled today's production engine.Phase 3, Full Scale Development (FSD). In 1991 funding was provided for 14 development engines. The first of these engines were delivered to the customer in 1994 for flight testing. The third Development Aircraft (DA3), at that time called an EF2000, made its first flight


Eurojet EJ200 (International) - Aero-Engines
less parts than the m 88 means it requires less maintenance
I dont have access to full article as I am not a subscriber

the typhoon also has 82% composite structure, meaning less parts , longer life span and less maintenance

 

[koushik]

Meteor is a fantastic Missile.It is powered by a throttalable ducted rocket(ramjet) giving it six times the kinematic performance as compared to other BVRAAMs.It has full thrust till its entire flight and it even accelarates when approaching near its target.The meteor even has multishot capability and ability to destroy even the most stealthiest of cruise missile and PGMs.It is an awesome weapon.

 

[dbc]

eft sanctions wont affect us as we will have full tot and production line in india.....

That is an unrealistic expectation, consortia nations have invested a 100 Billion dollars on the Typhoon a large chuck of it on research and engineering. It is unlikely India will get "full ToT" for 10 to 30 billion dollars from the Euro consortium or France. The best India can hope for is a symbiotic partnership, a risk /reward sharing arrangement where some critical components are sourced from India by all participating nations. If India is able to negotiate such then the risk of sanctions is somewhat mitigated, as sanctions will hurt all partners.

Eft is not a mini mki, just by having a far smaller rcs it will have completely different role in the iaf.....Also we will be partners in the project getting profits from future eft sales and upgrades....it is similar to mki in the way that as partners in the program we define what upgrades we want thereby making it tailormade for indian conditions...... French supported us during sanctions but they also sell their latest tech to pakistan like agosta subs and avionics hence they are not to be trusted, they are also robbing us in mirage upgrade deal, you can expect to pay just as much or probably higher when we upgrade the rafale( and there will be a hell of a lot more rafales than mirages in our inventory)

The MMRCA deal is a business transaction you cannot expect France to not sell to nations hostile to India. There is every indication that France and other European nations want to sell to China, US objection is the only remaining barrier to European weapons sales to China. Once the ink dries on the MMRCA contract these nations will pursue business opportunities in China and Pakistan expecting the contrary is a delusional.

 

[Yeti]

If the Eurofighter get's picked it will need US to give the green light due to certain american part's in the fighter just like what happened when Saudi's joined the program.

 

[Yeti]

The MMRCA deal is a business transaction you cannot expect France to not sell to nations hostile to India. There is every indication that France and other European nations want to sell to China, US objection is the only remaining barrier to European weapons sales to China. Once the ink dries on the MMRCA contract these nations will pursue business opportunities in China and Pakistan expecting the contrary is a delusional.

US has come down heavily on China's human right's in the last few weeks and do remember MRCA is just one of many pie's in the Indian market the French want to be part of our next gen sub tender and the yanks want more orders for P8, C130 and the new order of C-17 all the card's remain with India when it comes to a much smaller Pakistan market, as for China there must be a change in EU law which will be hard to push through in this moment of time.

 

[dbc]

US has come down heavily on China's human right's in the last few weeks and do remember MRCA is just one of many pie's in the Indian market the French want to be part of our next gen sub tender and the yanks want more orders for P8, C130 and the new order of C-17 all the card's remain with India when it comes to a much smaller Pakistan market, as for China there must be a change in EU law which will be hard to push through in this moment of time.

You really think India has enough money to keep France, Russia, Germany, Sweden, Italy, Israel, United Kingdom and the United States committed and exclusive indefinitely? Among EU nations the United Kingdom is the only nation opposed to resuming arms sales to China. US Arms sales to India is negligible and does not alter the balance of trade between the United States and India that currently favors India, India is yet to open up its markets and dismantle barriers to free trade. The United States is India's largest investment partner and donor, the amount spent on P8's, C130's and C-17's pales in comparison to US imports, investments and aid to India.

 

[Yeti]

You really think India has enough money to keep France, Russia, Germany, Sweden, Italy, Israel, United Kingdom and the United States committed and exclusive indefinitely? Among EU nations the United Kingdom is the only nation opposed to resuming arms sales to China. US Arms sales to India is negligible and does not alter the balance of trade between the United States and India that currently favors India, India is yet to open up its markets and dismantle barriers to free trade. The United States is India's largest investment partner and donor, the amount spent on P8's, C130's and C-17's pales in comparison to US imports, investments and aid to India.

Umm no your wrong Sweden is not for opening up defence ties with China they have strong moral values and human rights come's first for them I do not need to tell you that. Israel well they are not even in EU and they have sold to China in the past but need yankee permit to do it just like the time the IAI EL/M-2075 Phalcon was blocked. As for the French well they would sell their own mothers given half the chance I expect nothing less from them but with the Libya conflict and the arab unrest defence sales to countries with poor human right's records will be a much harder sell to the mass public not to mention the track record of China in reverse engineering.