India seeks Pak passageway for freight train service

[gogbot]

Pakistan is a Muslim country, 96% of Pakistan's population is Muslim, we believe all Muslims will unite so are you laughing at what Indian Muslims believe in too?

I said i didn't want to be anti religious. But yes i find a Political union on the basis of religion rather silly. and just a relic of a bygone age.
that should be remembered but not lived.

That will only happen when Indian troops stop murdering and raping Kashmiri civilians.

you cant use a handful of incidents over many years to form a generalization for the whole army, when you have half a million troops, couple of then are bound to go bad. but legal action HAS been taken against them.
The only destabilizing force in Kashmir is the infiltrators from PAK

Pakistan can deny India's request to be linked to this railway like we denied India transit route to Afghanistan in the past.

then nothing would have changed, no one will lose or gain anything.

Pakistan doesnt need India either, if it wasnt for India's occupation of Kashmir India wouldve vanished into obscurity for many young Pakistanis.

that's great forget about India , But i doubt the new generation of Pakistanis care about Kashmir as much as you, its a war foreign to them.

Yes Pakistan is a gateway to Eurasia for India.

Have you ever looked at the map? And that gateway is not going to come easy for India.
Transit route through Pakistan is the easiest and least expensive way to reach Eurasia.

How much cargo can a freight train carry?
or how many freight trains do you need to many one cargo freighter.
Trains cant compete with ships they never could. that's why they built the Suez and Panama canals

Pakistan may be one access point by Land but dont delude yourself into thinking that India Is completely cut off from the rest of the world just because of Pakistan.

India can happily use the Suez canal to get to Europe.
or unload the cargo in Iran and then use the train if its really that big a deal.

When it comes to bulk transport Ships are always cheaper then trains

Chinese and European market is much more attractive.

Of course, they are im sure a potential market of a Billion people means nothing for Pakistani business.

They will just forget about that market right next door. They have china and Europe that's enough.
Even though the one of the core rule's of Business is to always try to expand

ECO started the Pakistan-Iran-Turkey railway. The trial train just reached Turkey from Pakistan last month.

Trade between ECO member states are improving and will improve more once we start a regular train service next year.

WELL duh it a economic negation committee, Its only purpose is to improve trade.
and that's what i Said

But have they ever done anything outside the status quo, a political or strategic move. No they have not, that shows you what the ECO actually is Economic cooperation organization. It isn't some political alliance

Pakistan will do just fine being connected to ECO member states and China.

Its India whose living in the past and didnt take advantage of new oppurtunities like IPI.

What the IPI , India wanted the deal, but after Mumbai that changed.
Terrorists came to India from Pakistan and then Killed 180 people and what did Pakistan do nothing, just pretends like nothing happened. and wnats to go ahead with IPI, which would give Pakistan power to cut of fuel whenever it wanted.

Agreements have been made, signed, and sealed between Pakistan and China to build a rail link connecting Pakistan to China.

We always looked for mutual interest and mutual respect.

We dont cry to China as much as India cries to US whenever it gets upset.

Pakistan will do more than fine with Chinese, Central Asian, Middle Eastern, and European markets.

Sure as if The US Is going to take care of INDIA, When was the last time INDIA went crying to the US and the US fought our battle. INDIA US relationship is simple "you scratch my back, i scratch yours"

Again Omar you cant think like an entrepreneur.
besides its not like everyone is lining up to do business with PAK. or PAK companies are aggressively expanding into other countries.

 

[KSRaj]

India would earn billions of dollars from trade with Central Asia, Middle East, and Europe through Pakistani soil and gain influence into these very important regions.

You have rightly noted that without transit through Pakistan, India maybe loosing billions. But have you spared a thought about the many billions that Pakistan is loosing due to its relationship with India?
Trade as some say... is a zero-sum game.

I just hope the relations between the 2 countries improve and both countries focus on the more relevant issues facing their countries.

 

[WarProfessor]

You have rightly noted that without transit through Pakistan, India maybe loosing billions. But have you spared a thought about the many billions that Pakistan is loosing due to its relationship with India?
Trade as some say... is a zero-sum game.

I just hope the relations between the 2 countries improve and both countries focus on the more relevant issues facing their countries.

Profit sharing in this deal is wishful thinking by the Indians. You need to at least also make political concessions.

 

[KSRaj]

Profit sharing in this deal is wishful thinking by the Indians. You need to at least also make political concessions.

I never mentioned profit "sharing" .. I was talking about "making" profits! Meaning ... why just restrict ourselves to sharing a pie ... let us have many pies!

Political concessions!? You are raising this point I presume with the sole assumption that India will be getting economical concessions out of better relations with Pakistan... and so.. Pakistan needs to be given some political concessions!
Poetic eh?
I guess all that lovely economic logic that Ejaz has been posting here hasnt exactly registered with some folks!

 

[WarProfessor]

I never mentioned profit "sharing" .. I was talking about "making" profits! Meaning ... why just restrict ourselves to sharing a pie ... let us have many pies!

Political concessions!? You are raising this point I presume with the sole assumption that India will be getting economical concessions out of better relations with Pakistan... and so.. Pakistan needs to be given some political concessions!
Poetic eh?
I guess all that lovely economic logic that Ejaz has been posting here hasnt exactly registered with some folks!

All I am saying is, even if Pak supports such a scenario for now, without Indian political concessions (border issues), India will be in it for a wild ride, I am not saying Pak is baiting and fishing, however there is always going to be political element in it. Without thinking about politics, there is no point in commenting on this simply out of a commercial setup.

What do you think why does China choose Pakistan as partner in extending her trade route? Why not India or even Myanmar?

Also, I don't believe Pak will ever give any political concessions on border issue. It's a political suicide for any Pakistani politicians to do that.

 

[Omar1984]

you cant use a handful of incidents over many years to form a generalization for the whole army, when you have half a million troops, couple of then are bound to go bad. but legal action HAS been taken against them.
The only destabilizing force in Kashmir is the infiltrators from PAK .

Everyone knows that its the Indian army and Indian police thats the only destabilizing force in Kashmir. Even during peaceful protests, Indian army/police fire at defenseless Kashmiri civilians. Are you saying that the Armarnath land row controversy last year that caused an uproar in Indian Occupied Kashmir was caused by Pakistan too?

Visit the following threads, these are all work of indian army:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/33872-kashmir-activist-discovered-dead.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/32137-more-unmarked-graves-discovered-held-kashmir.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmi...d-war-indian-army-accused-torture-terror.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmir-war/31790-2-killings-stoke-kashmiri-rage-indian-force.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmi...ainst-land-occupation-troops-rock-valley.html

that's great forget about India , But i doubt the new generation of Pakistanis care about Kashmir as much as you, its a war foreign to them.

Every year Pakistan marks Kashmir Solidarity Day in support of the Kashmiri people. Pakistanis will always support the Kashmiri people and we will never forget about Kashmir and we will teach our children not to forget about Kashmir either.

India can happily use the Suez canal to get to Europe.or unload the cargo in Iran and then use the train if its really that big a deal.When it comes to bulk transport Ships are always cheaper then trains.

The train is called the Islamabad-Tehran-Istanbul Railway,
we will not change it to Islamabad-Chabahar-Istanbul Railway for india.

Lets see which route is easier, faster, and least expensive to get to Europe from India:

Suez Canal:

or

Transit:

Of course, they are im sure a potential market of a Billion people means nothing for Pakistani business.
They will just forget about that market right next door. They have china and Europe that's enough.Even though the one of the core rule's of Business is to always try to expand.

China's population is much larger than India, and when your arch rival is sending a request to be part of a transit route through Pakistani soil into Central Asia, Middle East, and Europe you have to take multiple factors into consideration not just economical. You have to take political, security, and social factors into consideration too. As someone said in this thread, India's influence in Europe, Middle East, and Central Asia will be bad news for Pakistan and China, so Pakistan must take all factors into consideration.

WELL duh it a economic negation committee, Its only purpose is to improve trade.
and that's what i Said But have they ever done anything outside the status quo, a political or strategic move. No they have not, that shows you what the ECO actually is Economic cooperation organization. It isn't some political alliance.

This is just the start. ECO was formed in the mid-80's and then it slowed down in the 90's, now in this decade cooperation between ECO member states are improving. This needs to build up, it'll take some time. How do you think EU formed?

Anyways, my post about a union with ECO member states was in a response to an indian member who said Pakistan and India should form a union

What the IPI , India wanted the deal, but after Mumbai that changed.Terrorists came to India from Pakistan and then Killed 180 people and what did Pakistan do nothing, just pretends like nothing happened. and wnats to go ahead with IPI, which would give Pakistan power to cut of fuel whenever it wanted.

Check the Strategic section of this forum, there's a thread discussing our Interior Minister challenging india on a debate over mumbai incident and India is the one that said there was going to be no dialog unless we take action against 26/11 suspects in Pakistan and now india sends a request to be part of this railway. Aren't you afraid that Pakistan will cut off transit route to india whenever we wanted? Right, you have an alternative route through sea and plan to gain influence over Central Asia, Middle East, and Europe by that time.

Again Omar you cant think like an entrepreneur.besides its not like everyone is lining up to do business with PAK. or PAK companies are aggressively expanding into other countries.

As I said before, theres multiple factors to consider when a request comes from your arch rival asking for a transit route to 3 important regions in the world. Political, social, economic, and security. We should look at the long term effect not the short term effect and see what is in the best interest of Pakistan ONLY.

Pakistanis have faith and patience. Once we are connected through railway to all ECO member states and China that will help Pakistani companies tremendously.

 

[rubyjackass]

Its India whose living in the past and didnt take advantage of new oppurtunities like IPI.

Do you even know why India backed out of IPI? You seem to think of IPI as a chance gien by Pakistan to India. This rail link is as commercial as IPI. Why should Pakistan treat this differently Omar? Give one good reason. Please please rub it in my face. If you cannot take a chill pill and sit back.
And unlike what War Professor says, it needs as many political concessions as IPI needed(which is nil).

We always looked for mutual interest and mutual respect.

Why can't India and Pakistan do that?


All BS and hate apart, give me one good reason why Pakistan should not let India get a passage.

 

[Omar1984]

Well now - if this is confirmed, should Pakistan agree without any quid pro quo?

No, Pakistan should not agree to this. If we agree our arch rival will then have influence over 3 important regions of the world through Pakistani soil.

Would there be any difference between the national security concerns associated with allowing India to trade with Afghanistan and allowing India to transit through Pakistan for trade with Iran, Turkey and beyond?

The ultimate aim of this railway is to connect all ECO member states through railway, Afghanistan is part of ECO which means soon Afghanistan will also be connected to the Islamabad-Tehran-Istanbul railway, which means India would be given easy access to Afghanistan through Pakistani soil which we denied her in the past.

I suppose India could try to circumvent Pakistan for rail based trade with Turkey and Europe the same way she is with Afghanistan - transport the goods to Iran via sea, and then use the rail based system.

The Islamabad-Tehran-Istanbul railway will not be changed to the Islamabad-Chabahar-Istanbul railway, certainly not for india.

There's no railway between Chabahar and Tehran. The only way would be if India travels to Chabahar, Iran through sea then travels through road to Tehran. The entire trip from India to Tehran will even take longer than the railway travel from Islamabad to Istanbul. Tehran is closer to Turkey while Chabahar is closer to Pakistan.

And Pakistan is one of the 3 founders of ECO, for India to use the railway from Tehran to Istanbul, it must be approved by Pakistan. The railway is an ECO project.

 

[Omar1984]

Do you even know why India backed out of IPI? You seem to think of IPI as a chance gien by Pakistan to India. This rail link is as commercial as IPI. Why should Pakistan treat this differently Omar? Give one good reason. Please please rub it in my face. If you cannot take a chill pill and sit back.And unlike what War Professor says, it needs as many political concessions as IPI needed(which is nil).

Just look at the previous posts made by your fellow indian members and see for yourself why they say India backed out of IPI. One guy said security reasons, well isn't security a problem here too for India, the train will run through Pakistan.

We all know why India backed out of IPI, because of American pressure and American offered a nuclear deal instead to India.

Why can't India and Pakistan do that?
All BS and hate apart, give me one good reason why Pakistan should not let India get a passage.

Thats easy.

From Indian news:

Stable Pakistan not in India’s interest

 

[rubyjackass]

Just look at the previous posts made by your fellow indian members and see for yourself why they say India backed out of IPI. One guy said security reasons, well isn't security a problem here too for India, the train will run through Pakistan.

We all know why India backed out of IPI, because of American pressure and American offered a nuclear deal instead to India.

Yeah like they are the authority. Anyway I was just asking whether YOU know why? Because you were talking about India getting into IPI just to delay it, as if India has no other meaningful work to do.

Thats easy.

From Indian news:

Stable Pakistan not in India’s interest

Can't you see that comes under hate?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Can't you see that comes under hate?

errr yes - hate from the Indian side.

Blogs, forums, op-eds, opinion pages and articles in the Indian media and from Indians just seethe with this irrational hatred.

The day you guys decide to stop being 'haters' and resolve Kashmir in accordance with the wishes of the Kashmiris prescribed by the UNSC resolutions, there will be no need to take into account India's irrational and deep hatred of Pakistan.

 

[Omar1984]

Well Mr rubyjackass, as Pakistanis we have to look in Pakistan's best interest and when an Indian defence analyst publishes an article in an Indian newspaper that stable Pakistan is not in India's interest then we have to be very careful in dealing with India.

What do you want us to do, treat you like an ally

We have to take ALL factors into consideration when dealing with this request from India. Political, economical, security, and social, and we have to look at long-term effects not short-term.

Maybe you personally want to see a stable Pakistan, but I can not say the same about Indian politicians and the rest of India.

 

[R.A.W.]

errr yes - hate from the Indian side.

Blogs, forums, op-eds, opinion pages and articles in the Indian media and from Indians just seethe with this irrational hatred.

The day you guys decide to stop being 'haters' and resolve Kashmir in accordance with the wishes of the Kashmiris prescribed by the UNSC resolutions, there will be no need to take into account India's irrational and deep hatred of Pakistan.

Sir one more addition to your post that its not only Indians haters are on the both sides. Bharat Varma is at par excellence with great Zaid Bhai

 

[R.A.W.]

Well Mr rubyjackass, as Pakistanis we have to look in Pakistan's best interest and when an Indian defence analyst publishes an article in an Indian newspaper that stable Pakistan is not in India's interest then we have to be very careful in dealing with India.

What do you want us to do, treat you like an ally

We have to take ALL factors into consideration when dealing with this request from India. Political, economical, security, and social, and we have to look at long-term effects not short-term.

Maybe you personally want to see a stable Pakistan, but I can not say the same about Indian politicians and the rest of India.

Walking on the same lines can we take the ideologies of Zaid Hamid as the voice of Pakistan.

 

[rubyjackass]

Well Mr rubyjackass, as Pakistanis we have to look in Pakistan's best interest and when an Indian defence analyst publishes an article in an Indian newspaper that stable Pakistan is not in India's interest then we have to be very careful in dealing with India.

What do you want us to do, treat you like an ally

We have to take ALL factors into consideration when dealing with this request from India. Political, economical, security, and social, and we have to look at long-term effects not short-term.

Maybe you personally want to see a stable Pakistan, but I can not say the same about Indian politicians and the rest of India.

Thank God atleast now you are talking sense. Looks like you took my advice above.

You don't judge people by your perception of their intention especially if you are representing a country. You judge them by their actions. I only hope the concerned ministries of Pakistan will take a good decision.

Now which among ALL factors you mentioned will be against the train service and how?




When I said hatred, I meant that from both sides. Please read this.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history/34098-indians-pakistanis-join-hands-congo-battle.html#post482974

Omar's pointing of the article is just an instance of the phenomenon mentioned in the post.