India Scraps Domestic Jet Engine Plan

[timetravel]

actually India still going to use Kaveri. Also India is not like China to use underperforming engines or equipment for armed forces.... if it was China, they would have used a below performing engine in all the fighters and claimed YOOO see our 5th gen rocks..

so that is what chinese 5ht gen will be.. cheap with low grade equipments and engines..

 

[Martian2]

actually India still going to use Kaveri. Also India is not like China to use underperforming engines or equipment for armed forces.... if it was China, they would have used a below performing engine in all the fighters and claimed YOOO see our 5th gen rocks..

so that is what chinese 5ht gen will be.. cheap with low grade equipments and engines..

Kaveri: 8.2 tons of thrust. GE F414: 9.8 tons. China's WS-10A: 13.2 tons

Kaveri will only be used for UAVs (see citation below). India has selected the GE 404 engine for the LCA.

The Kaveri has many intractable problems. However, even a fully functioning Kaveri only produces 8.2 tons of thrust. The GE F414 engine for the LCA Mark II produces 9.8 tons of thrust. As a reminder, China's WS-10A engine produces a whopping 13.2 tons of thrust.

To answer your question, China's WS-15 engine for the J-20 Mighty Dragon produces 18 tons of thrust. Its almost the equivalent of TWO GE F414 engines.

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http://www.defensenews.com/article/...ngine-Plan?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

"India Scraps Domestic Jet Engine Plan
Jun. 17, 2012 - 01:46PM |
By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI

NEW DELHI — India has abandoned its efforts to build its own engine to power the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Mark-2, according to Indian Defence Ministry sources.

The Kaveri engine, which Indian defense scientists are trying to build, has failed to meet Indian Air Force requirements two decades after the project began, the MoD sources said.

This means the LCA Mark-2 will be powered only by U.S. company General Electric’s GE-414 engine, which was short-listed earlier over Germany’s Eurojet to power the LCA Mark-2. The aircraft, under development at Bangalore’s Aeronautical Development Agency, is expected to be ready around 2017.

While an MoD official would not say that the engine project has been abandoned for the aircraft, he did say that the Kaveri engine does not fully meet the Air Force’s thrust requirements. The MoD has now decided to use the Kaveri engine to power only UAVs, the official added.

India’s Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO), the agency that is building the Kaveri, had been in consultation with French company Snecma for the past three years to help complete the engine.

DRDO and Snecma had been negotiating to co-develop and co-produce the engine, but they have yet to sign an agreement, the MoD official said.

While the official would not say why the negotiations failed, an Indian Air Force source said the Kaveri project to power the LCA has been all but abandoned. Beyond powering UAVs, the engine also will be a technology demonstration project.

The Air Force source added that besides the failure to meet the thrust level, the Kaveri also has technical problems with its compressor, turbine and engine control system.

Meanwhile, the LCA Mark-1 is readying for induction by 2014, nearly 15 years behind schedule. It will be powered by the GE-404 engine, also from General Electric.

For the LCA Mark-2 program, ADA will order 99 GE-414 engines and the rest will be manufactured in India under technology transfer arrangements."

 

[shuttler]

no it doesnt matter if its a new plane or old. its the quality of the pilots that sucks. big time. can someone track down a report saying indians massive record breaking plane crashes are due to human errors !?! RIP RIP RIP ...

this report corrects my statement:

"In 39.5 per cent of the (crash) cases, technical defect is the cause and in 39 per cent of the cases, human error was found to be responsible," the report said.

1,000 aircraft lost by IAF in crashes since 70s - Brahmand.com

 

[Martian2]

My analysis: The real story behind the Indian Kaveri engine

A modern turbofan engine for a combat fighter is a critical technology that cannot be purchased on the world market. You can buy the engine itself, but not the core technologies behind it (see first citation below).

My interpretation of India's abandonment of the Kaveri engine is that it is the right call. India has hit a technological wall. The Kaveri engine failed in its 2004 tests in Russia and India had no idea how to fix the problems (see second citation below).

The hope was to acquire the turbofan engine know-how from the French. However, the French were only willing to sell the core turbofan engine as an unit and not reveal the secrets behind it.

Since the French Snecma "uprated derivative" M88-2 engine provided only 8.4 tons of thrust, the IAF (Indian Air Force) properly chose the GE F414 engine with 9.8 tons of thrust. However, it should be noted that redesigning the LCA airframe to accommodate the larger GE engine required up to four years of redesign.

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China, Cyber Warfare and Challenges for the Future

"The Chinese 2006 Medium to Long Term Plan on Science and Technology (MLP) announced:

'Facts have proved that, in areas critical to the national economy and security, core technologies cannot be purchased.'”

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HAL Tejas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"In mid-2004, the Kaveri failed its high-altitude tests in Russia, ending the last hopes of introducing it with the first production Tejas aircraft.[N 6] In February 2006, the ADA awarded a contract to the French aircraft engine company Snecma for technical assistance in working out the Kaveri's problems.[6] The Kaveri engine based on Snecma’s new core, an uprated derivative of the M88-2 engine that powers the French Rafale fighter, providing 83-85 kilonewtons (kN) of maximum thrust was being considered a third option by DRDO. This led the IAF to object that since Snecma had already developed the core of the engine, the DRDO will not be participating in any joint development but merely providing Snecma with an indigenous stamp.[24]

In 2008, it was announced that the Kaveri would not be ready in time for the Tejas, and that an in-production powerplant would have to be selected[25] in the 95 to 100 kilonewton (kN) (21,000–23,000 lbf) range to allow the aircraft to perform combat maneuvers with optimal weapons load. The contenders were the Eurojet EJ200 and the General Electric F414.[26] IAF sources said that the airframe will have to be redesigned to accommodate the heavier engine, which is to take up to three-four years.[27]

After evaluation and acceptance of the technical offer provided by both Eurojet and GE Aviation, the commercial quotes were compared in detail and GE Aviation was declared as the lowest bidder. The deal will cover purchase of 99 GE F414 engines. The initial batch will be supplied by GE and the remainder will be manufactured in India under a transfer of technology arrangement.[28][29]"

 

[Martian2]

You do realize that I'm a military enthusiast and you have to say something related to the military to get my attention, right?

For those that are unaware, I have a very thick skin. It doesn't matter what you say about me.

I only care if you can prove with solid reasoning (or a reputable citation) that I made an error in making a claim about military affairs. That is the only scenario where I would start to feel the pressure. An erroneous military analysis would be a shot to morale and my reputation.

 

[RiazHaq]

On the same theme, Russian newspaper Kommersant reported that "India has had little success with military equipment production, and has had problems producing Russian Su-30MKI fighter jets and T-90S tanks, English Hawk training jets and French Scorpene submarines."

On India's perennial dependence on imports, here's how blogger Vijainder Thakur sees India's loose meaning of "indigenous" Smerch and other imports:

"The Russians will come here set up the plant for us and supply the critical manufacturing machinery. Indian labor and technical management will run the plant which will simply assemble the system. Critical components and the solid propellant rocket motor fuel will still come from Perm Powder Mill. However, bureaucrats in New Delhi and the nation as a whole will be happy. The Smerch system will be proudly paraded on Rajpath every republic day as an indigenous weapon system.

A decade or so down the line, Smerch will get outdated and India will negotiate a new deal with Russia for the license production of a new multiple rocket system for the Indian Army.

China will by then have developed its own follow up system besides having used the solid propellant motors to develop other weapon systems and assist its space research program."

Haq's Musings: India's "Indigenous" Copies of Foreign Nukes, Missiles

 

[sweetgrape]

Engine is descriped as crown of industry, You can produce plane, but not mean you can manufacture engine!
It has a lot to do with material and high-end precision lathel. If you despise the industry, do not think of producing engine, any countries put is in the list of top classificed item, any country will not transfer the core technology to other country!!
And even if you can, you must have high precision lathe, which refer to another strategic equipment!
In the world, the best civil lathe from Japan, USA, German and sweden, but military-use high pecision lathe has more strict condition, I don't know who is best, but according the engine-producing, you can find that!
Now, the material problem is solved in china, It has high strength, low density and high resistance to heat, not bad even compare with the counterpart of the western, and the density is lower than them!!
The another problem should be solved is lathe, I don't know much, but, from the news about lathe in these year, it make great progress, especially in the new century, China government put the equipment manufacturing industry on the list of strategic industries, there are a few english news about it, of course, it is relative low-end! we still have a long way to go, but as the rate, we will soon solve the lathe problem, maybe ten years!!
About india, the don't have strong and big industry, it is daydream to have his own engine, the western country can't give them best lathe, and the material problem should be solved by theirself! In more than 20 years, Indian no way to produce their own engine, that's my word!

 

[faithfulguy]

Oh wow, I'm shocked.

India spent 23 years (since 1989) on the Kaveri engine and now, they're walking away?

Sheesh, give me all the schematics, prototypes, and the test data results.

I'll cobble together a group of Chinese engineers armed with abacuses. We can fix anything!

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"[T]he Kaveri had a tendency to 'throw' turbine blades, which required securing blades from SNECMA (as well as digital engine control systems).[6]"

"Among its deficiencies, CAG says the engine weight was higher than the design specifications (1235 kg against 1100 kg) and there was no progress on developing the compressor, turbine and engine control systems.[25]"

The Kaveri had been tested to a maximum of 0.7 Mach.

"'In recent times, the engine has been able to produce thrust of 82 Kilo Newton but what the IAF and other stake-holders desire is power between 90—95 KN', senior officials told The Hindu."

Reference: GTRE GTX-35VS Kaveri - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Chinese WS-10A turbofan engine produces 132 KiloNewtons of thrust

China's WS-10A engine (with gearbox at the bottom) is designed to power the J-10B Vigorous Dragon fighter. This version of the WS-10A turbofan engine is said to have 13.2 ton maximum thrust. There are several wrapped engines near the floor.

To put things in perspective, China's WS-10A engine produces 132 KiloNewtons of thrust. The in-limbo Indian Kaveri engine can only manage 82 KiloNewtons.

The Chinese WS-10G engine, which is currently undergoing reliability tests, can produce 155 KiloNewtons. It's the equivalent of two Kaveri engines.

Shenyang WS-10 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Variants

WS-10 - original design producing a thrust of 126 kilonewtons (28,000 lbf)
WS-10A - upgraded variant producing a thrust of 132 kilonewtons (30,000 lbf)
WS-10B - upgraded thrust-vectored variant producing a thrust of 132 kilonewtons (30,000 lbf)
WS-10G - upgraded variant producing a thrust of 155 kilonewtons (35,000 lbf) with Thrust Vectoring and stealthy nozzles that have jagged edges and tiles"

[Note: Thank you to Pinko for the picture and caption for the WS-10A engine.]

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A Chinese WS-15 turbofan engine for J-20 Mighty Dragon produces 180 KiloNewtons of thrust

China's WS-15 turbofan engine for J-20 Mighty Dragon produces 18 tons of thrust.

For comparison, each of the Pratt & Whitney F119-PW-100 engines that power the F-22 produces only 156 KiloNewtons of thrust. However, the F-22 is a smaller and lighter plane than the J-20.

WS15

"WS15 turbofan

The core engine for the WS-15 engine was first tested in April 2005. The demonstrator was developed successfully and the prototype WS-15 was running smoothly. China is undoubtedly far behind Russian engine technology. Nonetheless, China has produced the WS-9 engine for the JH-7, the WS-10A engine for J-10, and the WS-15 for the new J-20 fourth generation stealth fighter. The WS-9 and WS-10A were both usable, and without the WS-10A China would not have negotiated J-10 orders with PAF."

WS-15

"WS-15

Program Status: Under Development
IOC: 2020
Origin: China

Description: The WS-15 is a Chinese advanced turbofan intended to power fifth generation fighter aircraft. The WS-15 thrust may exceed 18,000 kg and is intended to power the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) J-20 twin-engine stealth aircraft and the J-12 single engine stealth fighter.

Applications:

Strike & Fighter Aircraft"

Reference for Pratt & Whitney F119-PW-100 engine performance: Pratt & Whitney F119

[Note: Thank you to Greyboy2 for the picture.]

Stop rejoice in another country's failures. Even though is massive and embarrassing. By putting others down and talk about China's achievements, you are no different from Indians in this forum.

On the topic, I believe India is relying too much on joint venture and TOT to immediately produce a usable engine. India should focus on taking baby steps instead of flying before crawling.

 

[Martian2]

Stop rejoice in another country's failures. Even though is massive and embarrassing. By putting others down and talk about China's achievements, you are no different from Indians in this forum.

On the topic, I believe India is relying too much on joint venture and TOT to immediately produce a usable engine. India should focus on taking baby steps instead of flying before crawling.

Show me the sentence where you claim I'm rejoicing.

Do you understand what compare and contrast means? It is called objectively discussing the military capabilities of big countries.

You're an idiot. I dislike politically-correct people like you. You cannot persuade me to abandon my straight-talk and adopt your politically-correct phrases and acceptable forms of thought. You can forget it. It's never going to happen.

I went out of my way to be polite and called the Kaveri engine "in-limbo." I could easily have called it a "failed" engine if I wanted to. And yes, I do have a reputable citation from an Indian newspaper that called the Kaveri a "failed" engine. If you want to see my citation, just ask and I'll post it.

 

[faithfulguy]

Show me the sentence where you claim I'm rejoicing.

Do you understand what compare and contrast means? It is called objectively discussing the military capabilities of big countries.

You're an idiot.

You don't need to use the words "rejoicing" By bring out China's achievements, you are rejoicing inside. China is definitely more advance than Indian in engine development. But you need to give them credits for just trying. By bring out China's achievements and waive in front of them, you act like an idiot yourself.

 

[Shinigami]

WOAH....

looks like our "high" IQ chinese friends are defecating all over the place along with some pakistani cheerleaders in their miniskirts

PLEASE READ THE FIRST SENTENCE

India has abandoned its efforts to build its own engine to power the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Mark-2

 

[KRAIT]

WOAH....

looks like our "high" IQ chinese friends are defecating all over the place along with some pakistani cheerleaders in their miniskirts

PLEASE READ THE FIRST SENTENCE

India has abandoned its efforts to build its own engine to power the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Mark-2

Inse(Pakistan) car engine to bana nahin hum par hans rahe hain......Expert from Pratt & Whittney has said that Kaveri is a world class engine.

In Feb. 2006, the US experts told pti that "Kaveri is truly a world-class engine." "We are ready to join in partnership with the Defence Research and Development Organisation to make Kaveri work," General William J Begert of Pratt and Whitney, told PTI. But DRDO secretary Natrajan told PTI that "But Kaveri is and would remain an Indian project.

GTRE GTX-35VS Kaveri - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We are ready to join in partnership with the Defence Research and Development Organisation to make Kaveri work," General William J Begert of the world's leading aircraft engine manufacturers, Pratt and Whitney, told PTI.
Kaveri: India's very own fighter engine - Rediff.com India News

 

[doidoi2]

I actually believe that India does have the ability to do it, however corruption and bad organization always kills the best of efforts.

Engine development also takes years of experimenting with new materials, techniques, engineering methods etc. You can't simply jump on it and expect to be successful right away.

Also doesn't help that their best and brightest leave India each year to pursue IT careers in the US instead of staying and devoting their talents to Indian industry.

 

[perplexed]

Does China have an engine of approx Kaveri specifications ?? Plz rant about your oversized WS-X engines somewhere else..

 

[KRAIT]

I actually believe that India does have the ability to do it, however corruption and bad organization always kills the best of efforts.

Engine development also takes years of experimenting with new materials, techniques, engineering methods etc. You can't simply jump on it and expect to be successful right away.

Also doesn't help that their best and brightest leave India each year to pursue IT careers in the US instead of staying and devoting their talents to Indian industry.

Pratt & Whittney offered assistance, but INDIA EGO.....