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India says Pakistan's Air Force modernisation worrisome

It is funny that Indians nickname their MKI als mini AWACS yet Saab2000 is not up to the same title... :) It really amazes me that their words or title should be reality yet if we post direct sources then either they question our titles or source. Frankly I see this as a lack of knowledge. Saab2000 is all optimized AWACS with even more goodies. It offers a lot potential. If they do not want to see that then why discussing with computertigers or flightsimpilots? We have a history of posts where LCA was seen as a tiger and JF17 as a paperplane. We had no source then (I did but that is not comparable what we have now) but we surely can see the results. JF17 is almost in operational service with first official squadron starting up in jan2009. We hear that LCA was a lovely testcase... Sure. It is but I never heard an Indian poster say anything about the supersizing of LCA in the past. Same happens now with Phalcon and Saab2000... It is bigger but I be the endresults we be in favour of Saab2000. We have seen the plane. We have read enough source material. I believe it is a lot better then Phalcon.I hear no sound logical reason why it is not an AWACS. Frankly I would call it AWACS+... The Phalcon/E3 concept is no longer the best option... Not financially, not technology wise and not argumetns wise... It is a white elephant that might do well in US_Irac wars (to many against no opponent) but in real war it would be deleted faster then you all think. It reminds me of Varyag... Super big but in war against Pakistan a failed option.

Munir is it possible to share the source of the Erieye vs Phalcon data? i am curious. I have heard anecdotal evidence but unfortunately it was things like people talking to saab people at shows and the like.
 
It is funny that Indians nickname their MKI als mini AWACS yet Saab2000 is not up to the same title... :) It really amazes me that their words or title should be reality yet if we post direct sources then either they question our titles or source. Frankly I see this as a lack of knowledge. Saab2000 is all optimized AWACS with even more goodies. It offers a lot potential. If they do not want to see that then why discussing with computertigers or flightsimpilots? We have a history of posts where LCA was seen as a tiger and JF17 as a paperplane. We had no source then (I did but that is not comparable what we have now) but we surely can see the results. JF17 is almost in operational service with first official squadron starting up in jan2009. We hear that LCA was a lovely testcase... Sure. It is but I never heard an Indian poster say anything about the supersizing of LCA in the past. Same happens now with Phalcon and Saab2000... It is bigger but I be the endresults we be in favour of Saab2000. We have seen the plane. We have read enough source material. I believe it is a lot better then Phalcon.I hear no sound logical reason why it is not an AWACS. Frankly I would call it AWACS+... The Phalcon/E3 concept is no longer the best option... Not financially, not technology wise and not argumetns wise... It is a white elephant that might do well in US_Irac wars (to many against no opponent) but in real war it would be deleted faster then you all think. It reminds me of Varyag... Super big but in war against Pakistan a failed option.
the e-3 was not offered to pak but the e-2c AEW&C was only offered...paf had to choose between e-2 and saab-2000 and it chose aesa erieye.u hav ur own views i hav my own

IAI Phalcon 707 (FAS)
Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) developed its Phalcon system for Israeli defence forces and for export. Airborne Early Warning, Command and Control (AEWC&C) systems play a major role on the modern battlefield by providing real-time intelligence and command and control needed to achieve and maintain air superiority over the combat area and to enable surveillance of borders in peacetime. The world's most advanced AEWC&C system, the PHALCON, was developed and produced by ELTA using Active Phased Array Electronic Scanning Technology rather than a mechanically rotating antenna (rotodome) used by current AWACS systems, giving PHALCON greater operational flexibility and performance by several orders of magnitude. The Phalcon AEW&C aircraft is based on four sensors: phased-array radar, phased-array IFF, ESM/ELINT and CSM/COMINT. A unique fusion technology continuously cross-relates the data gathered by all sensors. When one of the sensors reports a detection, the system automatically initiates an active search of the complementary sensors.
The AWE&C phased array radar replaces the conventional rotodome radar. It is mounted either on the aircraft fuselage or on top of the aircraft inside a stationary dome, providing full 360° coverage. This electronically steered beam radar delivers a tremendous advantage over mechanical rotating antenna, as it supports the tracking a high maneuvering targets. The radar can detect even low flying objects from distances of hundreds of kilometers, day and night, under all weather conditions. Verification beams sent at specific, individual, newly detected targets eliminate false alarms. Moreover, track initiation is achieved in 2 to 4 seconds as compared to 20 to 40 seconds with a rotodome radar
The IFF system employs solid state phased array technology to perform interrogation, decoding, target detection and tracking. A monopulse technique is used to implement azimuth measurement. The IFF data is automatically correlated with the phased array radar.
The ESM/ELINT system receives, analyzes and locates radar signals, covering 360o. It combines high sensitivity with high probability of intercept, and achieves excellent accuracy in bearing measurement. The system uses narrow-band super-heterodyne receivers and wide-band instantaneous frequency measurement (IFM) techniques to provide very high accuracy and probability of intercept of airborne and surface emitters. Very high bearing accuracy for all received signals is achieved through Differential Time of Arrival (DTOA) measurements. The system also collects and analyzes ELINT data.
The PHALCON's CSM/COMINT receives in UHF, VHF and HF, rapidly searching for airborne, shipborne or ground communications signals of interest. Selected radio nets can be monitored for signal activity. A DF capability locates targets. Detected signals can be assigned to monitoring receivers instantaneously. The system makes extensive use of computers to reduce the load on operators.
The aircraft communicates, via its data link, with Air Defense HQ. Data from additional air defense sensors are fused to create a complete spatial picture.

The PHALCON systems can be installed on a variety of platforms, such as the Boeing 707, Boeing 767, Boeing 747, Airbus and C-130. This system has already been sold to Chile, where it is designated "Condor". Under the aegis of Defense Minister Yitzhak Mordechai and Defense Ministry Director General Ilan Biran, six agreements for cooperation between Israeli, American and European defense firms were signed on 15 October 1998. Under one of these agreements, IAI/ELTA Electronics Industries Ltd. and Raytheon Systems Company will cooperate on the development, production and marketing of AEWC&C systems on a world wide basis. The new project will be based on PHALCON. The two companies have already teamed up to compete for tenders for AEWC&C systems for Australia, South Korea and Turkey.
Israel Now Flying New Phalcon AWACS
 
Key, Munir : Yar I am not a AWACS guys is it ture that after every 80 hr of flight Saab 2000 the Antenna has to be taken off for maintaince?
 
>>>]What branch of engineering do you specialize in. Just saying that your an engineer does not make your posts credible.

I am a technical university graduate, Have followed lectures aeronautical university... Did that with electronics department also... Been in the world of aviation since 84... Hope that qualifies for you... Last time I talked to senior F16 top gun pilot and senior F16 engineer they were pretty impressed what I knew about some planes...


Now what is your qualification?

>>>Platforms do evolve. It is only natural to move onto the Saab 2000. More processing power does not indicate that all processing is done on the plane itself.

Since platform evolves pretty fast from Argus to Saab2000.... I do not think
E2 went that fast. And being latest generation of the Erieye with same scan range as bigger E3 sentry you might give it some credits. Just check AFM magazine of last month... You wil see the data... But let me say it in f16 terms... Block52 is a lot better then block 40... There is only a few years between them... So you think that decades old E3 will be a lot better then just fresh from the factory Saab2000?

>>>But ofcourse, you speak with facts right? I dont have to prove what i say simply because what i say is considered fact. It is considered fact that Erieye is dependent on ground stations, that it is an AEW&C. Erieye is no miracle AEW&C, that it will have more computing power than a Phalcon. The onus is on you to prove that the AEW&C has become an AWACS all of a sudden!

Sure. Ericson and Saab do not know what they produce...

>>>And where did you get this little gem of information?

Well, I don't hear where you get your considered facts.

>>>ROFL. If that is your line of thinking, it is pointless to talk to you. Still, allow me to tell you, that India is buying a platform to build something like the Erieye not because Phalcon is not as good(lol), but because it is much cheaper. Phalcon is very very expensive, and India is a big country, we cannot buy Phalcons for all our needs. India is building an AEW&C in the Erieye class, not Phalcon, which is much bigger. Phalcon would be the employed on the threatre level, coordinating the various Indian AEW&C's while the indigenous AEW&C is planned to be used as a tactical support AEW&C.

From someone who starts personal remarks you still do not show your cards. That is why you bought another 3 squadrons and 200+ MKI? India spends moeny like o other, they just want the title of being able to produce (cough copy paste or most of the time paint) products.



>>Phalcon is far out of the league of Erieye. You can compare the amount of price paid by India and Pakistan over their respective procurements.

No data... So en empty statement.

>>>A Phalcon system mounted on a say EMB-145 would be in the Erieye class, not mounted on an Il-76!

Simple logic... If size is your only constraint then you surely should be member of the Indian awacs program... :)
 
sir erieye is very capable one but u cant say that erieye is more capable bcoz it has many people operating cards ,it does not have a 360 deg coverage......the new phalcon on il-76 is a stable dome which sees equal distance in all direction, this unprecidented situational awareness it can give to fighters can be the difference between life and death........but the erieye as to operate in groups with data links to make up the blind spots and they cannot operate independantlyor else it will risk being shot down.

Quick point regards the comparative radars Apparently the Phalcon operates on the X-band which has better tracking range but the Erieye operates on the S-band which has better jamming capabilities. there fore it would give the Erieye better situational awareness

Ok the whole 360 degree thing was debated to death as well If we ignore all that for a second. Heres something for you to digest. the SAAB 2000 can perform a turn in 30 seconds. The idea that a AWACS aircraft would roam around is ludicrous. they would always be part of a integrated defence system.

Oh and the IL-76 based awacs platform has difficulties with A2A refueling due to turbulence so lets be careful out there!
 
Key, Munir : Yar I am not a AWACS guys is it ture that after every 80 hr of flight Saab 2000 the Antenna has to be taken off for maintaince?

I don't think that it needs that much maintenance. The advantage of AESA is that it has no moveable parts... Also smaller conventional AESA radar show much lower maintenance frequencies. And software is more more important then the hardware updates... Have to search more info but I think they are wrong on 80 hours maintenance.
 
Quick point regards the comparative radars Apparently the Phalcon operates on the X-band which has better tracking range but the Erieye operates on the S-band which has better jamming capabilities. there fore it would give the Erieye better situational awareness

Ok the whole 360 degree thing was debated to death as well If we ignore all that for a second. Heres something for you to digest. the SAAB 2000 can perform a turn in 30 seconds. The idea that a AWACS aircraft would roam around is ludicrous. they would always be part of a integrated defence system.

Oh and the IL-76 based awacs platform has difficulties with A2A refueling due to turbulence so lets be careful out there!
so the sab-2000 keeps turning all tha time...........il-76 has much higher endurance bcoz it is a strategic lift aircraft capable of being deployed anywhere in the world and it does not require refuelling.thanks for pointing out one more advantage:Du must understand that iaf could hav chose saab-2000 ,it is available to iaf but y it chose phalcon bcoz it is the best and the iaf always goes for the best.
 
so the sab-2000 keeps turning all tha time...........il-76 has much higher endurance bcoz it is a strategic lift aircraft capable of being deployed anywhere in the world and it does not require refuelling.thanks for pointing out one more advantage:Du must understand that iaf could hav chose saab-2000 ,it is available to iaf but y it chose phalcon bcoz it is the best and the iaf always goes for the best.

Actually the IL-76 has the endurance of 7 hours 50 minutes....the Erieye has 10 hours.......So unless you planning to only have coverage for that amount of time then you will need inflight refueling.

I also understand that the IAF was trying to create its own AEW when the rotodome crashed into the plane bringing it down and killing most of the scientists on the project. Hence the Phalcon! ;)
 
Actually the IL-76 has the endurance of 7 hours 50 minutes....the Erieye has 10 hours.......So unless you planning to only have coverage for that amount of time then you will need inflight refueling.

I also understand that the IAF was trying to create its own AEW when the rotodome crashed into the plane bringing it down and killing most of the scientists on the project. Hence the Phalcon! ;)

true but even if we had continued we wud hav not got such a good platform not considering the costs but then we are moving ahead now am happy abt that. can u post a link on il-76 endurance and saab-2000 but range of il-76 is abt 4000-4200km(with full payload) saab-2000 is 2900km.
 
true but even if we had continued we wud hav not got such a good platform not considering the costs but then we are moving ahead now am happy abt that. can u post a link on il-76 endurance and saab-2000 but range of il-76 is abt 4000-4200km(with full payload) saab-2000 is 2900km.

Well you are forgetting the large dish shaped thing on top of the plane which creates a lot of drag ;). The enduarnce is based upon the A-50's which uses the same aircraft with a rotodome.

A-50 Mainstay Airborne Early Warning and Control System Air Force Technology

I had the SAAB 2000's endurance somewhere but willl have to hunt it down.....
 
Here ya go!

Saab Staging Rollouts for New AEW and Gripen Fighter Developments

By Chris Pocock
April 15, 2008
Aircraft

Within the span of a month, Saab is rolling out two new developments with export potential. On March 27, the first Saab 2000 twin-turboprop airliner to be modified with the Erieye Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) system made its public debut.

Later this month, Saab’s upgraded Gripen fighter will emerge. The company is hoping that Denmark and Norway will prefer this version, dubbed Gripen-Demo, to the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

The Pakistan Air Force has ordered the Saab 2000 Erieye system, and the commander of that force–ACM Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed–attended the rollout at Linkoping, Sweden. Ahmed praised the new platform’s nine-hour-plus endurance, high speed and low operational costs.

Saab (previously Ericsson) Microwave Systems has sold Erieye systems to Sweden, Greece and Thailand on the smaller Saab 340 twin-turboprop airliner, and to Brazil and Mexico on Embraer EMB-145 regional jets. According to Saab, the larger Saab 2000 permits the carriage of more sensors for electronic intelligence and self-protection.

Saab Staging Rollouts for New AEW and Gripen Fighter Developments: AINonline
 
Here you go Keys:


The first Saab Erieye 2000 AEW aircraft is currently undergoing flight testing in Grenada, Spain and expected to continue throughout the fall of this year. This is the lead of five aircraft ordered by Pakistan. Two similar aircraft have also been offered to Thailand, the first has already been ordered together with the first six Gripens, while the second is included as an option with six additional fighters, replacing aging F-5s. Previously, similar configurations were used with the Saab 340 and Embraer 145. Saab is currently promoting the longer, more spacious Saab 2000 platform for a wide range of special missions, as an attractive, cost effective solution for airborne early warning (AEW) missions.

According to Matthew Smith, Director of Marketing – Airborne Surveillance Arena at Saab, these special mission platforms are derivatives of the regional airliner, including the Saab 340 and the larger Saab 2000 platform, which provides more spacious cabins, long-range and persistence at an affordable cost. The company proposes the smaller Saab 340 as Maritime Patrol Aircraft (MPA) search missions, while the larger Saab 2000 is better positioned for longer range MPA, as an AEW, carrying the dorsal Erieye radar and ESM system. The Saab 2000 is also positioned to carry signal Surveillance, Targeting, Acquisition and Reconnaissance (SIGSTAR) mission.

The Saab 2000 platform has a cruising speed of 370 knots, it can climb to an altitude of 20,000 ft in 10 minutes, reaching operating area 1,000 nautical miles afar within three hours. It can operate from high altitude airfields, taking off with maximum load and fuel even at hot temperature. Flight safety is maintained throughout all flight conditions, including single engine operations, where the aircraft can maintain altitude at 20,000 ft. To extend mission endurance, Saab packed an extra fuel tank at the rear section of the cabin. For example, in the MPA and SIGnal Surveillance, Targeting, Acquisition, Reconnaissance (SIGSTAR) missions, the Saab 2000 platform can operate at a maximum range exceeding 2000 nautical miles, on a mission endurance exceeding 9.5 hours.

The MPA aircraft can carry out a mission covering a 200 nm Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) for 5.5 hours at an altitude of 2,000 ft. The Saab 340 MPA can operate on shorter missions lasting 3.5 hours. It's maximum range exceeds 1,300 nm and endurance is about 7 hours. In the SIGSTAR mission, the aircraft becomes operational immediately after takeoff, performing COMINT, ELINT, ESM missions supported by real-time analysis or offline analysis both onboard and on the ground.

The Erieye 2000 AEW aircraft is designed as a more capable aircraft, compared to past generation Erieye. The improved radar can detect smaller targets, including hovering helicopters. The system also uses Identification, Friend /Foe (IFF) system, Electronic Support Measures (ESM) and Automatic Identification System (AIS) which all integrate into a complete surveillance system. The defensive suite is also integrated with the sensors, and comprises of Self Protection System, Missile Approach Warning (MAW) and Laser Approach Warning (LAW) sensors controlling chaff and flare countermeasures.

The radar, mounted on the dorsal superstructure is the main sensor of the Erieye system. Operating in AEW missions from an altitude of about 8,000 meters, Erieye can detect targets at distances beyond to 400 km, including aircraft, surface vessels, and even cruise missiles and other low radar cross-section (RCS) targets flying at 200 km range. Surface naval targets can be detected at a range of 300 km.

The cabin accommodates five operator consoles, which can share the operational picture with ground-bound control system via communications and tactical datalink. The spacious cabin has accommodations for rest area and a galley. It also houses a large fuel tank which provides for the extended range and endurance performance of the aircraft. Mission training, planning and debriefing systems are also integrated into the system.

Saab expects to use commercial Saab 2000 aircraft to be converted to special missions, as some of the 58 platforms currently in service are scheduled for major overhaul or modification. Although the company claims the system can be accommodated in other platforms, and has installed the radar on Embraer's EMB-145, the recently announced alliance between the Brazilian company and India's Defense Research & Development Organization (DRDO) to develop AEW aircraft based on Embraer's special-mission aircraft platforms leaves little for future cooperation with Saab.

According to Smith, commercially operated Saab 2000 aircraft have flown about 25% of their life expectancy, leaving 30-35 years of remaining special-mission life span on average. Preparing a platform for the special mission role requires significant modification lasting 6-8 months, including engine refurbishment in cases new engines are introduced, structural strengthening as required, bonded and anodized corrosion protection at manufacture ensures continued corrosion protection in salty environments for maritime operations. Aircraft are also installed with self protection systems (chaff dispenser and ESM pod on each wingtip and chaff/flare dispensers at the belly. Auxiliary power unit and cooling systems are installed at the aft section. The main sensors are located at the belly (MPA) or dorsal superstructure (Erieye) which requires the most significant changes, such as the additional superstructure installation for the Erieye platforms, involving dorsal, tail and wing strengthening, wingtip pods installations, and installations of self protection systems in the wingtip, nose belly and on the engine cowling.
 
India says Pakistan's Air Force modernisation worrisome

Saturday, 23 August 2008 00:00 Pakistan Daily

The Indian Air Force does not see the reported modernisation and upgrade of Pakistan's Air Force as a threat, but finds it "worrisome” nevertheless, India's Air Chief Marshal FH Major said on Thursday.

...

Then why worry? :lol:
 
Munir is it possible to share the source of the Erieye vs Phalcon data? i am curious. I have heard anecdotal evidence but unfortunately it was things like people talking to saab people at shows and the like.

Will get it for you. just give me a few days to scan it...
 

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