India’s vanishing Parsis

[Shahin Vatani]

Abii, how come you want to convert to Zoroastrianism? Being an atheist and all...

 

[Developereo]

Iranians NEVER talk openely about religion and if somebody asks, they will not answer before trying to change the subject. Outside Iran they are open.

All the Iranians I have known were in Western countries where they were free to, and did, discuss their religious issues openly. Not one single person -- NOT ONE -- professed a desire to convert to Zoroastrianism, even though they were open about attending Zoroastrian rituals and very proud of the heritage. I don't deny that there is churn and there are conversions, but it is a small, elitist minority.

I've shown you statistics of Iranian Americans and their religious beliefs. Those stats represent millions of voices. Only 4/10th of those that responded called themselves muslims.

How exactly does 'not religious' translate into 'convert to Zoroastrianism'? Being non-observant does not equate to Zoroastrian. Your own chart shows that, even after all these decades in the US, there is hardly any wholesale reversion to Zoroastrianism.

Do you think me, or other anti Islam Iranians, would ever spend 10 minutes in real life with you???

Most of the people I knew in Los Angeles were Jewish Iranians who were not particularly pro-Islam. We had no problem discussing things openly and calmly.

How many times have you been to such parties to know people like us?

This is in Tehran and hundreds of these parties are thrown every day in every Iranian city

I went to plenty of such parties with Iranians over the whole spectrum of religiosity. What is that supposed to signify? As you yourself stated in another thread, having Western-style parties does not mean Iranians will become pro-America.

There are plenty of such parties in Karachi, too. So, what?

Remember, we are not talking about outward religiosity. The claim was that Iran would "revert" to Zoroastrianism and my contention is that there is no evidence of that -- a small minority notwithstanding.

 

[angeldust]

Those people that are against conversion need to wake up.

We will always be against conversion. It is part of who we are. The days of the great prophets are over and we believe only they had the right to spread the word and the faith.

Once done, the bloodlines are sealed.

Most of us (over 95% I would say) do not see Muslim Persians once again becoming Zoroastrian as conversion at all.

We see it as reversion. And please believe me when I tell you that a LOT of us have massive wrong misconceptions about you guys thanks mainly to your mullas and the hardcore muslim Iranians we interact with on the internet who try to be even more muslim than the Arabs. That too needs to change.

We will be the fountainhead. But its you who will always be the core.

 

[Shahin Vatani]

And please believe me when I tell you that a LOT of us have massive wrong misconceptions about you guys. That too need to change.

What are the misconceptions that are held?

 

[Abii]

Abii, how come you want to convert to Zoroastrianism? Being an atheist and all...

One of the reasons I haven't converted yet is exactly that. My mom knew a convert a few years ago and she wanted to give me books to read and I told her I aint interested. But zoroastrianism is a peaceful religion these days. It can be a way of life as much as a religion, sort of like budhism. Good words, good thoughts and good deeds, I can go with that. There are probably many Zoroastrians today who don't believe in god. I rather be a zoroastrian that doesn't accept all of the teachings and beliefs, but maybe half or even most of the teachings, than a statistical muslim atheist.

I now feel like I have a duty to know more about the faith and advertise it among my peers. Fine, be an atheist, but try hard to remove the chains of Islam completely. Most Iranian atheists wouldn't mind converting, but their lack of faith means that they don't want to spend time learning about zoroastrianism and its teachings. If there were more converts, people like us would be enticed to read and learn about it and go the extra mile. I feel pity for the people in my family who have no interest at all in converting. They're not muslim and most probably believe in god, but the idea that they can convert has never been part of their mindset. If Zoroastrians tried to advertise the religion, things would be different among the Iranian community outside Iran.

 

[angeldust]

What are the misconceptions that are held?

Mainly that most of you hate the religion (pagan, backward, etc.) but only are reverting to the symbols as part of nationalism in the face of the pressure being applied by the West plus to spit in the eye of the Arabs and the mullas.

One of the reasons I haven't converted yet is exactly that. My mom knew a convert a few years ago and she wanted to give me books to read and I told her I aint interested. But zoroastrianism is a peaceful religion these days. It can be a way of life as much as a religion, sort of like budhism. Good words, good thoughts and good deeds, I can go with that. There are probably many Zoroastrians today who don't believe in god. I rather be a zoroastrian that doesn't accept all of the teachings and beliefs, but maybe half or even most of the teachings, than a statistical muslim atheist.

I now feel like I have a duty to know more about the faith and advertise it among my peers. Fine, be an atheist, but try hard to remove the chains of Islam completely. Most Iranian atheists wouldn't mind converting, but their lack of faith means that they don't want to spend time learning about zoroastrianism and its teachings. If there were more converts, people like us would be enticed to read and learn about it and go the extra mile. I feel pity for the people in my family who have no interest at all in converting. They're not muslim and most probably believe in god, but the idea that they can convert has never been part of their mindset. If Zoroastrians tried to advertise the religion, things would be different among the Iranian community outside Iran.

Abii this has got to be one of the best and most from the heart posts I have read on PDF. I will make others here read it.

 

[Shahin Vatani]

Mainly that most of you hate the religion (pagan, backward, etc.) but only are reverting to the symbols as part of nationalism in the face of the pressure being applied by the West plus to spit in the eye of the Arabs and the mullas.

For me personally, while I respect Zoroastrianism, I indeed see the faravahar as a nationalistic sign. I wear it and am proud of it because it represents Iran and our past.

 

[Abii]

All the Iranians I have known were in Western countries where they were free to, and did, discuss their religious issues openly. Not one single person -- NOT ONE -- professed a desire to convert to Zoroastrianism, even though they were open about attending Zoroastrian rituals and very proud of the heritage. I don't deny that there is churn and there are conversions, but it is a small, elitist minority.



How exactly does 'not religious' translate into 'convert to Zoroastrianism'? Being non-observant does not equate to Zoroastrian. Your own chart shows that, even after all these decades in the US, there is hardly any wholesale reversion to Zoroastrianism.



Most of the people I knew in Los Angeles were Jewish Iranians who were not particularly pro-Islam. We had no problem discussing things openly and calmly.



I went to plenty of such parties with Iranians over the whole spectrum of religiosity. What is that supposed to signify? As you yourself stated in another thread, having Western-style parties does not mean Iranians will become pro-America.

There are plenty of such parties in Karachi, too. So, what?

Remember, we are not talking about outward religiosity. The claim was that Iran would "revert" to Zoroastrianism and my contention is that there is no evidence of that -- a small minority notwithstanding.

In the previous page I myself said Iranians as a whole will never convert. I said only a small minority if we're given democracy. And I don't disagree with anything you wrote here (only the part about parties in Karachi. In Iran it's different. Most liberals don't see Islam as part of their identity and culture. In Pakistan, people see Islam as part of their identity, whether liberal or muslim). What you said in the previous page was different. I thought that you meant most Iranians outside are muslims etc...

And yeah, most liberals aren't interested, I wasn't, Shahin isn't, Arian isn't etc... Right now zoroastrianism in Iran might as well be a dead and forgotten religion. Nobody can convert, nobody is thought the religion, nobody really knows much about it, the zoroastrians themselves don't really try to bring people in etc... For most people it has to become a personal decision. Once the numbers increase, the story will be different. There are more bahais outside the country advertising their religion than there are zoroastrians. Zoroastrians need to start advertising for younger people to know that they have a choice.

 

[angeldust]

For me personally, while I respect Zoroastrianism, I indeed see the faravahar as a nationalistic sign. I wear it and am proud of it because it represents Iran and our past.

It is your past as well as who you are. And will always be.

There are more bahais outside the country advertising their religion than there are zoroastrians. Zoroastrians need to start advertising for younger people to know that they have a choice.

The Bahais are Zoroastrian. We have them here as well. Many in fact.

Abii Zoroastrianism is very very old brother. We have seen it all done it all and we are still here.

I repeat. You are born a Zoroastrian. It is already in you.

But YOU need to reach out and accept it.

Zoroastrianism looks at faith and religion very differently.

The angst of Parsis is NOT against Islam.

It is against being driven out from our land.

Not by invaders alone. But eventually by our own people.

Our faith is personal and only between us and Ahura Mazda.

You want to make that connect, we are there. You do not, neither we nor Ahura Mazda change in anyway.

 

[Abii]

For me personally, while I respect Zoroastrianism, I indeed see the faravahar as a nationalistic sign. I wear it and am proud of it because it represents Iran and our past.

lol I have a farvahar around my neck right now. I found a leather band last week and put one of the many farvahar pendants (you know how it's. Every birthday somebody in the family is bound to give you a gold/silver farvahar lol) on it.

 

[Shahin Vatani]

Angeldust, do you think if Iran became a Zoroastrian (or at least a Zoroastrian friendly) country that most Parsis in India would move to Iran?

I ask because I have read several times from both you and vsdoc of anger at being forced out of Iran.

lol I have a farvahar around my neck right now. I found a leather band last week and put one of the many farvahar pendants (you know how it's. Every birthday somebody in the family is bound to give you a gold/silver farvahar lol) on it.

Yeah I have 3 Faravahar necklaces, 2 gold and 1 silver. I also have one with a sotoon of takht e jamshid.

But I don't wear them much, find it uncomfortable wearing rings/necklaces. Only a watch I can deal with wearing for extended periods of time.

 

[angeldust]

lol I have a farvahar around my neck right now. I found a leather band last week and put one of the many farvahar pendants (you know how it's. Every birthday somebody in the family is bound to give you a gold/silver farvahar lol) on it.

See this is something most of us here in India do not know. Till I read it here I was under the impression that the only place the Faravahr could be seen openly in Iran was on the rocky ruins of Persepolis and some old texts/National Geographic.

 

[Abii]

It is your past as well as who you are. And will always be.



The Bahais are Zoroastrian. We have them here as well. Many in fact.

Abii Zoroastrianism is very very old brother. We have seen it all done it all and we are still here.

I repeat. You are born a Zoroastrian. It is already in you.

But YOU need to reach out and accept it.

Zoroastrianism looks at faith and religion very differently.

The angst of Parsis is NOT against Islam.

It is against being driven out from our land.

Not by invaders alone. But eventually by our own people.

Our faith is personal and only between us and Ahura Mazda.

You want to make that connect, we are there. You do not, neither we nor Ahura Mazda change in anyway.

lol I gotta say, your posts are very interesting. I'm learning a lot about your view points. We all cracked each other's heads when we first met here (Iranians versus you and vsdoc). But now we're all cool and get along. I guess what I'm trying to say is that there shouldn't be a complete divide between zoroastrians and muslim-ish Iranians. I see what you're saying and how a person must want it first. But you also need to realize that Iran today is a very different Iran than even 60 years ago. Islam is a religion that demands convertion and Iran itself has been rulled by many different nationalities. You mix those two and you'll get a nasty combo. You might be living in India, but this Iran isn't the old Iran either. We too sort of got driven out. Today we're still lost.

 

[Shahin Vatani]

See this is something most of us here in India do not know. Till I read it here I was under the impression that the only place the Faravahr could be seen openly in Iran was on the rocky ruins of Persepolis and some old texts/National Geographic.

Go to Iran, you will see Faravahar on cars, peoples necks, on walls of restaurants and shops, in peoples houses. Faravahar to Iranians is a sign of identity, similar to that of the cross for Christians.

 

[Abii]

See this is something most of us here in India do not know. Till I read it here I was under the impression that the only place the Faravahr could be seen openly in Iran was on the rocky ruins of Persepolis and some old texts/National Geographic.

nah man, it's insane how every boy and girl has at least 5 gold farvahar pendants by the time they're 20. My grandma is a practicing muslim, but she's responsible for 3 of my farvahar pendants lol. It's sad that most people only wear it as a nationalist reason and some even completely remove it from its religous nature.

I'm interested to know what you think about the symbol of this group. Their logo is their version of farvahar. Do you find it insulting or you don't mind? you can see the symbol right at the start of the video. Oh and they're very into Indian music/culture for some reason. They always have an Indian girl singing in their music for some reason.

Angeldust, do you think if Iran became a Zoroastrian (or at least a Zoroastrian friendly) country that most Parsis in India would move to Iran?

I ask because I have read several times from both you and vsdoc of anger at being forced out of Iran.



Yeah I have 3 Faravahar necklaces, 2 gold and 1 silver. I also have one with a sotoon of takht e jamshid.

But I don't wear them much, find it uncomfortable wearing rings/necklaces. Only a watch I can deal with wearing for extended periods of time.

I hate the chains that come with them. What I do is buy cheap cotton/leather bands and put the pendants on those. It's comfortable and fashinable at the same time. The gold/silver chains are so stupid lol