India’s ‘K-15 Black Project’ : Pakistani perspective

[xyxmt]

Some Pakistani members here don't seem to understand India's SLBM program.It is not about going to war with Pakistan but averting a worst case scenario.It basically neutralizes Pakistan's first use policy.Pakistan has to factor in the subs and their deadly arsenal before daring to release the nuclear gene.Even if all the land based systems are rendered unusable after the first strike,Pakistan is still doomed.As the article rightly points out ,the program is very expensive,but at the end of the day it is worth it.Also the naval version of Babur is in an entirely different league as compared to India's K series.They simply cannot be compared here.This is only the beginning.The real party will commence once the K-4 is tested and inducted.Only when India is capable of incinerating Pakistani cities from the Bay of Bengal (if such a need arises) will India's triad be complete and kicking.It will take some time to arrive at that stage.

Do you think Pakistan will ever use Nuclear weapons on India, if she does what will be the situation??
It will be do or die situation, at that point Pakistan wont be thinking of consequences, and you will know for sure how useful your deterrence is

 

[turkish]

World's largest military importer and not a threat to us.
Boy these internet Hindus are living in more and more of a delusional state.

And it's cute that these Internet Hindus are all of a sudden experts in economics, military and foreign relations. India must be saving a ton of money by not hiring experts and simply getting these Internet Hindus to do the job for free.

Whats with hindu sh@t!!! All the Indian doesnt matter Hindu Mus or Sikhs etc wants to kick Pak's ***.. I guess only Muslims want to do the same in Pak.. except the other religions !!! Having a SLBM doesnt mean war is on tomorrow dude...

 

[WAR-rior]

@Pakistanis : Yaar, for intelligence's sake put this BS out of your mind that India == Hindu. In the last 65 yrs of history, the hindu nationalist party has been in power only for less than 6.5 years. not even 10% of period. What does this infer ? Dikhao pe mat jaao apni akal lagao (Agar ho to). SPRITE piyo.

 

[ChennaiDude]

In 2140? Probably.

Not in our lifetime though....

Speak for yourself....If making predictions is your main JOB..You need to seriously look for a career change.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

well for some years indian have been procuring well beyond their defence needs so therefore Pakistan has its own contingencies in place -- mostly defensive in nature as we are not having hegemonic ambitions

 

[ChennaiDude]

World's largest military importer and not a threat to us.
Boy these internet Hindus are living in more and more of a delusional state.

And it's cute that these Internet Hindus are all of a sudden experts in economics, military and foreign relations. India must be saving a ton of money by not hiring experts and simply getting these Internet Hindus to do the job for free.

ARE YOU SURE INDIANS COMMENTING ON THESE THREADS ARE ALL HINDUS?....and I see that you guys are all experts!...Really.

 

[Paan Singh]

well for some years indian have been procuring well beyond their defence needs so therefore Pakistan has its own contingencies in place -- mostly defensive in nature as we are not having hegemonic ambitions

But u proved oderwise in past...

65,kargil,48?? ring bells?

 

[ChennaiDude]

Why are members being unnecessarily abrasive? Indian members seem to be more at fault in this thread.

Guys we need to be Humble...I agree with RV.

We come nearest to the great when we are great in humility. ~Rabindranath Tagore

 

[ChennaiDude]

That was uncalled for...No body wants to destroy anyone...Ind and Pak will survive forever.

Media and news agencies just sell us what we need to hear....Hopefully the Nuclear buttons of both the nations are in responsible hands.

 

[SamantK]

well for some years indian have been procuring well beyond their defence needs so therefore Pakistan has its own contingencies in place -- mostly defensive in nature as we are not having hegemonic ambitions

And how did you figure out our threat scenario?

 

[Nassr]

Presently, neither India, nor Pakistan possess an effective incoming missile identification and Ballistic Missile Defence capability, irrespective of Indian claims (a couple of Israeli radars won’t make much difference – the one system which DRDO has opened to reverse engineer, I hear they don’t know how to re-assemble it).

Even the American BMD capability is rather limited and does not provide an assured hit probability for all kinds of missiles, particularly those with anti-BMD defence capability. Which means that both India and Pakistan can hit each other with nuclear ballistic missiles with impunity from anywhere, even from the subs, nuclear or not.

This also indicates that the Indian nuclear sub can fire this missile from Bombay harbor or from the Himalayas in the north or from Shangri-La itself, Pakistan cannot stop it. Pakistan can do the same as its missiles cover the whole of India and can devastate India and India can pretty much do nothing about it, irrespective of where the return second strike is going to come from. With current capability, Pakistan can and would respond to destroy over 100 Indian cities in the initial retaliatory strike. India can retaliate with the secondary strike from anywhere. For a credible minimum deterrence against India, Pakistan should be able to destroy a minimum of 400 Indian cities in the first strike.

Therefore, despite this SS Something N, India and Pakistan can destroy each other irrespective of this machine. The importance of Indian hired Russian sub is more for Pakistan than this tinhorn. Arihant is dangerous for China and for those countries where, currently Indian missiles cannot reach or may not reach in future. The third triad for assured second strike capability, whenever it is operational in mid to long term timeframe may only create difficulty for China. It does not matter for Pakistan at this juncture.

Let me also highlight a bit of BMD agony. The solid fuel Shahab-3 takes about 70 odd seconds to consume its booster motor. It currently, takes about 15-20 seconds to figure out that a missile has been launched from the whole swath of Iranian landmass through either satellites or land-based radars. The system also takes some time to identify if the missile is nuclear tipped or not and then, passes this information to the ground stations, taking another about 10-15 seconds. Time is needed by the counter missile battery to identify and acquire the target and launch the counter missile, which could be another 10-15 seconds or more. Once launched, the missile may just have about 15-25 seconds to neutralize the target missile. The Americans are launching the faster Block-II missiles to ensure that the counter missile can hit the target before the booster motor extinguishes. This is just to explain the boost phase defence. If the missile is missed, then comes the intermediate phase defence and finally the terminal defence, where Arrow-2 etc come in. Impossible – no. Difficult – yes extremely difficult. Does the Indians have this kind of integrated technology – not at the moment. And please, don’t start day dreaming, it’ll take you a long time if at all to reach the stage where you have a complete system.

You guys may say that India will have an effective BMD in future. By that time, we would also have something similar and would also have improved our strike systems to avoid Indian defence capability.

 

[MilSpec]

Presently, neither India, nor Pakistan possess an effective incoming missile identification and Ballistic Missile Defence capability, irrespective of Indian claims (a couple of Israeli radars won’t make much difference – the one system which DRDO has opened to reverse engineer, I hear they don’t know how to re-assemble it).

Even the American BMD capability is rather limited and does not provide an assured hit probability for all kinds of missiles, particularly those with anti-BMD defence capability. Which means that both India and Pakistan can hit each other with nuclear ballistic missiles with impunity from anywhere, even from the subs, nuclear or not.

This also indicates that the Indian nuclear sub can fire this missile from Bombay harbor or from the Himalayas in the north or from Shangri-La itself, Pakistan cannot stop it. Pakistan can do the same as its missiles cover the whole of India and can devastate India and India can pretty much do nothing about it, irrespective of where the return second strike is going to come from. With current capability, Pakistan can and would respond to destroy over 100 Indian cities in the initial retaliatory strike. India can retaliate with the secondary strike from anywhere. For a credible minimum deterrence against India, Pakistan should be able to destroy a minimum of 400 Indian cities in the first strike.

Therefore, despite this SS Something N, India and Pakistan can destroy each other irrespective of this machine. The importance of Indian hired Russian sub is more for Pakistan than this tinhorn. Arihant is dangerous for China and for those countries where, currently Indian missiles cannot reach or may not reach in future. The third triad for assured second strike capability, whenever it is operational in mid to long term timeframe may only create difficulty for China. It does not matter for Pakistan at this juncture.

Let me also highlight a bit of BMD agony. The solid fuel Shahab-3 takes about 70 odd seconds to consume its booster motor. It currently, takes about 15-20 seconds to figure out that a missile has been launched from the whole swath of Iranian landmass through either satellites or land-based radars. The system also takes some time to identify if the missile is nuclear tipped or not and then, passes this information to the ground stations, taking another about 10-15 seconds. Time is needed by the counter missile battery to identify and acquire the target and launch the counter missile, which could be another 10-15 seconds or more. Once launched, the missile may just have about 15-25 seconds to neutralize the target missile. The Americans are launching the faster Block-II missiles to ensure that the counter missile can hit the target before the booster motor extinguishes. This is just to explain the boost phase defence. If the missile is missed, then comes the intermediate phase defence and finally the terminal defence, where Arrow-2 etc come in. Impossible – no. Difficult – yes extremely difficult. Does the Indians have this kind of integrated technology – not at the moment. And please, don’t start day dreaming, it’ll take you a long time if at all to reach the stage where you have a complete system.

You guys may say that India will have an effective BMD in future. By that time, we would also have something similar and would also have improved our strike systems to avoid Indian defence capability.

Empty chest thumping by maligning DRDL, just in case the so called Israeli radar's rev engg model, The LRTR; can track 200 targets and had a range of above 500 km and can detect Intermediate Range Ballistic Missiles. Take a guess how to determine how th missile is hostile? The LRTR currently has a range of 600 km (370 mi) to 800 km (500 mi) and can spot objects as small as a cricket ball. The DRDO plans to upgrade the capacity of Swordfish to 1,500 km by 2011, so please keep technological incompetence claims to the relevant buyer, dont extend it to India. Btw ask your friends about the number of 64N6E BIG BIRD"s on the frotline's too.

India has a very clear no first use, your 100 cities target or 400 cities target will lead to the same logical end.

 

[Paan Singh]

@nassr

Greenpine radar can scan your entire country

 

[Nassr]

Empty chest thumping by maligning DRDL, just in case the so called Israeli radar's rev engg model, The LRTR; can track 200 targets and had a range of above 500 km and can detect Intermediate Range Ballistic Missiles. Take a guess how to determine how th missile is hostile? The LRTR currently has a range of 600 km (370 mi) to 800 km (500 mi) and can spot objects as small as a cricket ball. The DRDO plans to upgrade the capacity of Swordfish to 1,500 km by 2011, so please keep technological incompetence claims to the relevant buyer, dont extend it to India. Btw ask your friends about the number of 64N6E BIG BIRD"s on the frotline's too.

India has a very clear no first use, your 100 cities target or 400 cities target will lead to the same logical end.

Ok .......

 

[Nassr]

@nassr

Greenpine radar can scan your entire country

Paan Singh JI,

No it can not cover the whole of Pakistan.