India, Russia to make 5th generation fighter jets

[Bull]

Decks were cleared on Wednesday for India to jointly develop and produce the fifth generation fighter aircraft with Russia, with New Delhi making the "final choice" on the matter and Moscow saying the work on signing contracts on the deal could begin soon.

Observing that Russia had started developing the warplane about three years ago, visiting Deputy Premier and Defence Minister Sergei B Ivanov said "some time back, India showed interest in joining this project. It took them (India) some time to scrutinise the various options.

“Now, India has informed us that a final choice has been made. We can (now) open up contractual work for Indian accession to the project,” Ivanov told reporters at a joint press conference with his Indian counterpart A K Antony, after signing four documents.

Although interaction has begun on the joint development and production of fifth generation fighter jet, the actual signing of agreements could take some more time.

The two sides inked an inter-governmental agreement and a general contract for licensed production of the RD-33 aero engines.

A protocol of intent was signed by Antony and Ivanov on the medium-sized multi-role transport aircraft (MTA). The two leaders also signed the minutes of the sixth meeting of the Indo-Russia Inter-governmental Committee on Military Technical Cooperation.

The fifth generation fighter is based on the Sukhoi fighter and is expected to take its maiden flight in 2009.

“We are looking forward towards joint development and production of the MTA for use in the Indian and the Russian air forces and for sale to third countries,” Antony said, after signing the pact.

Ivanov said discussions were also held on the prospects for the future supply of MiG-35 fighters to India. New Delhi has announced its intent of acquiring 125 multi-role combat aircraft as well.

The Russian Minister said talks were also held on repair and refurbishing of the heavy aircraft carrier 'Admiral Gorshkov' being acquired by India.

On his part, the Indian Defence Minister said Indo-Russian cooperation had transcended the buyer-seller relationship to joint research and development and production projects, the BrahMos cruise missile being a "successful chapter in our relations".

Observing that the bilateral relations had undergone "substantial transformation" in the recent past, Ivanov joined Antony in saying that the two countries would begin work on scientific and technological cooperation and work on joint projects from 2010.

"I can assure you that Russia will undertake every effort to develop all aspects of scientific and technological cooperation with India".

Referring to the BrahMos project, the Russian leader said there was a continuity of joint activity on the cruise missile and efforts were being made to develop a new highly effective cruise missile of a new generation.

 

[Bull]

So its final as per this news report. The 5th gen plane is to based on the Sukhoi platform and its maiden flight will be in 2009.

 

[Adux]

http://content.msn.co.in/News/National/NationalPTI_240107_1440#top

India, Russia to make fifth generation fighter jet

Wednesday, January 24, 2007

Blog this story



New Delhi: India has decided to develop a fifth generation fighter aircraft with Russia, Russian Defence Minister Sergei Ivanov said on Wednesday.

Ivanov, following his arrival in New Delhi, attended a solemn wreath-laying for India's fallen soldiers at the start of talks meant to bring Indian-Russian military ties into a new era.

The talks came on the eve of a two-day summit between Russian President Vladimir Putin and Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh that will culminate in Friday's Republic Day parade, where the Russian leader will be guest of honour.

Ivanov and his Indian counterpart AK Antony stood to attention for a bugle salute beneath the towering stone arch of the India Gate, a tribute to Indian soldiers slain during World War I and the colonial-era Afghan Wars.

The two then held talks on a string of arms deals and joint military projects that Ivanov was scheduled to continue on Wednesday with Indian National Security Advisor MK Narayanan, Foreign Minister Pranab Mukherjee, and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.

The packed agenda reflects the urgency of updating the countries' long-running military ties for a new era in which India is increasingly turning to the United States and other countries.

Although about 70 percent of India's military hardware is of Soviet and Russian origin, New Delhi is also increasingly shifting from the existing buyer-seller approach to joint production, analysts say.

In line with the shift, Moscow hopes to sign deals this week on joint production of a fifth-generation supersonic fighter jet and a multi-role transport plane.

Ivanov said Tuesday that Russia would "actively" participate in an Indian tender for 126 multi-purpose fighter jets, where it will face hot competition from US, French and Swedish manufacturers.

The Indian government estimates it will spend about 10 billion dollars on arms purchases from 2007 to 2012.

Another key issue on the summit agenda is energy cooperation, a priority in India, which imports about 70 percent of its fuel requirements.

"There is a clear compatibility between India's demands and Russia's resources," Singh said in an interview published Wednesday in Russian daily Izvestia.

Ivanov said Tuesday that Moscow was "interested in the participation of Indian capital" in two vast oil and gas fields that India's Oil and Natural Gas Corporation (ONGC) wants a piece of, Interfax reported.

ONGC already owns a 20 per cent stake in Russia's Sakhalin-I field, which brings India 2.4 million tonnes of crude per annum.

The sides have also said they expect to agree a preliminary deal on Russia's building four additional nuclear reactors to supplement the two Russia is already building at the Kudankulam nuclear power station.

© Copyright 2006 PTI. All rights reserved.

 

[Adux]

its official now

 

[lulldapull]

Wow...Good news guys. Its about time the F-22 is trashed in the dumpster.

So it'll be the furthering of the T-50 prototype! Whats India's contribution in this? except of course financial.

 

[vnomad]

So it'll be the furthering of the T-50 prototype!

This aircraft cannot match the F-22. Nor will any other aircraft be it the Jxx or MCA. The F-22 will the absolute pinnacle in military aviation for the next fifteen years barring any new American aircraft. The level of all angle stealth that the F-22 incorporates is unprecedented. The Russians simply don't have enough cash to fund something like this. The cost of a single F-22 with development cost included is a whopping $361 million. Well out of the reach of the Russians. The T-50 at best might achieve the F-35's level of stealth(and that too is questionable). When I say stealth here I mean conventional stealth which the US has mastered. The card up the sleeve for the Russians might be Plasma Technology which the Russians have been working on for 25 years while the US concentrated on conventional stealth techniques.

Whats India's contribution in this? except of course financial.

Critical sub-systems. For example the Russians don't have any aircraft with a quadruplex FBW AFAIK. The Mayawi EW system co-developed with the Israelis is better than anything the Russians have. I'm sure there is plenty of other stuff too.

 

[lulldapull]

This aircraft cannot match the F-22. Nor will any other aircraft be it the Jxx or MCA. The F-22 will the absolute pinnacle in military aviation for the next fifteen years barring any new American aircraft. The level of all angle stealth that the F-22 incorporates is unprecedented. The Russians simply don't have enough cash to fund something like this. The cost of a single F-22 with development cost included is a whopping $361 million. Well out of the reach of the Russians. The T-50 at best might achieve the F-35's level of stealth(and that too is questionable). When I say stealth here I mean conventional stealth which the US has mastered. The card up the sleeve for the Russians might be Plasma Technology which the Russians have been working on for 25 years while the US concentrated on conventional stealth techniques.



Critical sub-systems. For example the Russians don't have any aircraft with a quadruplex FBW AFAIK. The Mayawi EW system co-developed with the Israelis is better than anything the Russians have. I'm sure there is plenty of other stuff too.

I think you are being pessimistic on the capabilities and technology being used on the PAk-FA and or available and being shared by the two principal Okb's involved in the design phase. On AFM some of the Russian guys had mentioned it having an advanced Phazatron AESA which already exists in a downgraded PESA version and is available for the Su-30MK series retrofit. The fuselage will essentially be a rework of the S-37 with your 'Raptorski' stubby wings. From concepts and the trickle of sketches and renderings it looks promising. there is a lot of money going around.....and FYI what generally takes the bloated military/ industrial complex in the u.S. '360' million/ aircraft, takes a whole lot less in the Russian defence estabilishment.

Case in point the Su-27/30 development.

But I agree that if Plasma stealth is sorted out, it would be a massive breaktrough.

 

[vnomad]

I think you are being pessimistic on the capabilities and technology being used on the PAk-FA and or available and being shared by the two principal Okb's involved in the design phase.

I am pretty pessimistic. The reason is simple. The Russians haven't come up with even a interim reduced RCS fighter like the Shornet, Rafale, Ef-2000 let alone a top end stealth aircraft. They will have to work from scratch. The US took over 15 years of development to build the F-22. The Russians are planning to pull it off in three years. Sounds unlikely. Together the best Britain, Germany, Spain, and Italy could come up with barely touches the F-22's capability. The EF-2000 has an estimated RCS of 0.1-0.5 m^2 while the F-22's is reported as 0.0001m^2. The difference is huge.

On AFM some of the Russian guys had mentioned it having an advanced Phazatron AESA which already exists in a downgraded PESA version and is available for the Su-30MK series retrofit.

The Israelis already have an AESA(Elta E/M-2052) in testing as do the Europeans(CAPTOR AESA or CAESAR). An AESA is a essential part of a fifth-generation aircraft, but having a working AESA doesn't amount to much. Also by the time the Russians have an AESA in production the American's will be testing the next generation of AESAs.

The fuselage will essentially be a rework of the S-37 with your 'Raptorski' stubby wings. From concepts and the trickle of sketches and renderings it looks promising.

Sketches don't prove anything, my friend. The DRDO also has sketches of the MCA in circulation. The T-50 sketches look like copies of the F-22. There is very very long road from sketch to production.

there is a lot of money going around.....and FYI what generally takes the bloated military/ industrial complex in the u.S. '360' million/ aircraft, takes a whole lot less in the Russian defence estabilishment.

Yes the Russians do get more bang for the buck but they still can't afford to build a Russian counterpart of the F-22. You might want to recall the progress on the ramjet powered R-77M, the Russian counterpart of the MBDA Meteor. The development has been stalled for the lack of funds while the Meteor induction date is already out.

But I agree that if Plasma stealth is sorted out, it would be a massive breaktrough.

The Russians have a lead over the Americans in research in this field. They might just pull it off. I don't see the point of having a Raptorisque structure for the T-50 if plasma tech is to be incorporated.

 

[lulldapull]

I agree with some points but then again the total viability and effectiveness of the 'Stealth' concept is yet to be proven. True the cockroach was effective against the weaker Iraqi and less so against the Serbian defences but then again if it were pitted against the newer surveillance radars of Russia, it would have been detected far quicker, and easily destroyed. Even a standing CAP of a second or third Gen. fighter would down it. No problem.

But I agree totally on the Plasma Stealth concept. If the Russians do pull another rabbit out of the hat on the 11:59th hour, and which they are renowned for doing, I wouldn't be surprised.

Also from the carlo Copp article circulating on BRF for some time the author is clear cut adamant that the longer range passive homing R-27P's and FTM the Novator's with passive seekers will find the largely reflective top end of these F-35's (looking down) on the aircraft on the downward trajectory before impact.

There are several types of seekers available too. After all the heat from the eflux doesnt go anywhere. You can minimise it, but its still there.

Tomorrow I will post some cool articles on the ussian 5th Gen. fighter program from some sources that I have been scouring for some time. Its mid night here in Perth.....

 

[Bull]

New Delhi: India is aiming to join the big league of avionic super powers in just about seven years, by developing a fifth-generation stealth fighter jet, which will match the top powers in the world.


The only operational fifth-generation fighter in the world as of now is the new American F/A-22 Raptor, the most expensive combat jet in history,

According to sources, officials from the Defence Ministry, Indian Air Force and the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) have already prepared a blueprint for the stealth fighter jet, which will have a lethal mix of beyond-visual range combat capabilities, reduced radar tracking signature, super-maneuverability and supersonic cruising ability among others.


The jet will be far advanced in comparison to fourth-generation fighters like MiG-29s, F-15 Eagles, F-16 Fighting Falcons, F\A-18 Hornets, Mirage-2000s and the like. The intermediate stage between them and the fifth-generation fighters is represented by Sukhoi-30MKIs, F/A-18 E/F Super Hornets, F-16F Desert Falcons, Eurofighter Typhoons and Rafales.



The most potent fighters in India's combat fleet at present are the Sukhoi-30MKI 'air dominance' fighters, being manufactured indigenously by HAL now under transfer of technology from Russia, which can be placed a little over fourth-generation fighters.


The fifth-generation fighter, sources say, will be “50% to 100% superior” to Sukhoi-30MKI in terms of "avionics, radius of turn, accuracy of weapon delivery and other combat capabilities".

India will collaborate with Russia in this multi-billion-dollar programme since it is yet to master the technology behind the manufacture of advanced fighter jets despite the ongoing indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft project.


The decks were cleared for this project on Wednesday with New Delhi making the "final choice" on the matter and Moscow saying the work on signing contracts on the deal could begin soon.


Observing that Russia had started developing the warplane about three years ago, visiting Deputy Premier and Defence Minister Sergei B Ivanov said: "Some time back, India showed interest in joining this project. It took them (India) some time to scrutinise the various options."


"Now, India has informed us that a final choice has been made. We can (now) open up contractual work for Indian accession to the project," Ivanov told reporters at a joint press conference with his Indian counterpart A K Antony after signing four documents.


Although interaction has begun now on the joint development and production of fifth generation fighter jet, the actual signing of agreements could take some more time.


Under the deals signed between the two nations on Wednesday, India will procure 40 additional Sukhoi 30 and 80 MI-171V choppers from Russia. The two countries have also signed an agreement on license production for MiG 29 engines. Ivanov also hinted that Russia won't allow China to export Russian fighter engines to Pakistan. The two sides have also signed a protocol of intent to jointly develop the multi-role transport aircraft


India and Russia have long-running military ties even though in which India has been increasingly turning to the United States and other countries for its military supplies in the recent years. Although about 70 per cent of India's military hardware is of Soviet and Russian origin. New Delhi is now increasingly shifting from the existing buyer-seller approach to joint production. The Indian Government is likely to about billion on arms purchases from 2007 to 2012.


Russia had been hard-selling its fifth-generation fighter project to India for some years now since it desperately needs some infusion of funds in its programme touted to be a rival to the American F-35 Lighting-II Joint Strike Fighter project. The two main Russian aviation majors, MIG Corporation and Sukhoi Design Bureau, submitted their plans for joint development of the fifth-generation fighter with HAL in end-November.


"Both presented their concept papers and blueprints about the aircraft configuration, workshare in co-development and cost of development. India might make the choice of its partner public during Putin's visit," sources said.

 

[Bull]

Its confirmed that we are getting 40 more Sukhois in an outright purchase deal and 80 helis.

 

[Contrarian]

I would still say its not confirmed. Confirmation means signing the contract. These are rumours, 99% of the defence journos in India dont know $hit about defence and $hit about the planes.

While discussing the T-50 though, i would say it has no chance on competing with the F-22. But i believe that would give the F-35 more than a run for its money, it would be equal or superior to the F-35.

Take an example, The Su-35 or the Su-30MKI are more than equal in combat to the F-15C's. Now the F-15's have a lower RCS than the Su-30 series, YET they are more than a match for these planes. Stealth is not the silver bullet. It does not solve everything. PAK-FA would be stealthy ofcourse but if its not as stealthy as F-35 does not mean that it would be inferior. I would say even say that T-50 will have a good level of stealth incorporated in it. Russia has been working towards stealth for the last 5-10 years. They have developed RAM's, etc, etc. The MiG 35 has a miniscule RCS when compared to their own standards. They are trying, they have been trying for a while now. Its not as though that they have been working on the 5th gen for last 3 years, so they have studies stealth for only 3 years.

They even have a TD out for the T-50, and it incorporated a good element of stealh, and you cannot have a TD from designs in 2 years (Im assuming that Berkut was shown to public last year).

So like i said, stealth is not the final word on 5th generation planes. Even US's super stealthy plane F-117 was detected by inferior Iraqi radars. Iraqi radars for that time were inferior and for that time, the F-117 was superior. So modern radars will develop something to counter stealth. WHat matters is the super manouverability, super cruise, long range, excellent radar, etc, etc, etc, and F-22 is a master in all these. People think that the only thing F-22 has is stealth. Stealth is only but a SMALL part of the F-22. It has much much more. Somthing that F-35 does not have. And that is why every country in the world is relooking at why it is buying the F-35, when its so expensive and does not offer half the level of F-22.

On plasma stealth, as far i could get to know, Russia tried plasma stealth, but they could not get the plama cover in high speeds. That is at high speeds, the plasma field wears off, and the plane cannot generate the plasma field as quickly. It also interfered with the radar of the plane, as the field stopped the planes' own sensors apart from prohibiting other radar waves from comming in . It was found to be a dead end of sorts. I maybe wrong, but this is what i could gather. Maybe Russia would indeed do something miraculous and make it work in T-50,but i think its highly unlikely.

 

[Chukkar]

The F15C and MKI have comparable raw RCS. But the latter is RCS treated to bring it to the 3 Mtr square level.

Frankly, India has handed Pakistan a fait accompli- no wonder the RD-93 was denied! Just look at the deals in question:

Outright purchase:
-40 Su-30 MKIs
-340 T90S
-80 Mi-17s
-License manufacture of 120 RD-33s and purchase of 30
-3 More Talwar class frigates
-Brahmos on Subs

Codevelopment:
-Fifth generation fighter, in which India will put in 3 Billion $ (per some reports)
-HAL-Irkut MTA, in which India will put in some 300-600 Million $
- Hypersonic Missile to replace the Brahmos

Proposed Deals:
-Proposed 10 ton helicopter to replace the Mi-17 series
-126 MRCA with complete TOT
- Amur class submarines for Brahmos fitment
- S300 series ATBM/ Technology for the future Indian ABM system
-18 M-SAM batteries being bid for the Indian Air Force M-SAM requirement, with remaining 30 plus for Akash
----

I mean, seriously, no wonder the Russians scrapped the RD-93 for the JF-17. Its peanuts in comparison.

 

[vnomad]

While discussing the T-50 though, i would say it has no chance on competing with the F-22. But i believe that would give the F-35 more than a run for its money, it would be equal or superior to the F-35.

One shouldn't be underestimating the F-35. If you see the recent developments in its development program you'll find that its even superior to the F-22 in several respects. The APG-81 is technically superior to the APG-77 and by 2012 when induction starts you can safely assume that it would be the best AESA in service. The F-35's P&W F135 engine in recent tests produced a thrust of 40000lbs which is unrivalled in the world(the F-22's F119 produces 35000lbs). With thrust vectoring it could be very very maneuvarable. The enormous control surfaces, set far behind the axis of gravity in both as well as far behind the engine, provide an enormous degree of maneuverability.

Take an example, The Su-35 or the Su-30MKI are more than equal in combat to the F-15C's. Now the F-15's have a lower RCS than the Su-30 series, YET they are more than a match for these planes.

More than a match is a matter of opinion. Both will 'see' each other well outside the range of their munitions. After that its all a matter of chance and skill. A more fitting example is the Eurofighter against the F-22 or F-35. In such a contest stealth will come into play. The CAPTOR will lockon to the F-22 at a distance of about 15 kms. It'll be shot by the F-22 long before that happens. Stealth matters. And matters a lot.

I would say even say that T-50 will have a good level of stealth incorporated in it. Russia has been working towards stealth for the last 5-10 years. They have developed RAM's, etc, etc.

Well a good level of stealth is one thing. Stealth comparable to the F-22 and B-2 is another. Every aircraft manufacturing country uses RAM. RAM is not a technology like thrust vectoring which you have to develop and master. The quality of Russian RAMs compared to rest of the world is anybody's guess.

The MiG 35 has a miniscule RCS when compared to their own standards. They are trying, they have been trying for a while now. Its not as though that they have been working on the 5th gen for last 3 years, so they have studies stealth for only 3 years.

Do you have any figures on the MiG-35s RCS? They have made claims of terrific RCS reduction. But, the result remains to be seen. An RCS in the range of the Rafale and Shornet would be excellent.

They even have a TD out for the T-50, and it incorporated a good element of stealh, and you cannot have a TD from designs in 2 years (Im assuming that Berkut was shown to public last year).

Then again. The US has 15 years of experience. Look at the difference between a the RCS of the EF-2000 and F-35. Its huge. The result of those fifteen years is here to show.

So like i said, stealth is not the final word on 5th generation planes. Even US's super stealthy plane F-117 was detected by inferior Iraqi radars. Iraqi radars for that time were inferior and for that time, the F-117 was superior.

Was it? This is news to me. Could you post some links or something.

So modern radars will develop something to counter stealth.

We can only guess.

WHat matters is the super manouverability, super cruise, long range, excellent radar, etc, etc, etc, and F-22 is a master in all these. People think that the only thing F-22 has is stealth. Stealth is only but a SMALL part of the F-22. It has much much more.

My friend. Without the super-cruise and super-maneuverability the F-22 is still practically invincible. It is almost invisible in the sky. How do you shoot it down? The stealth is the most important feature of the F-22. The super-powerful AESA is the second most important feature.

Somthing that F-35 does not have. And that is why every country in the world is relooking at why it is buying the F-35, when its so expensive and does not offer half the level of F-22.

Every country is relooking in favour of what? Surely not the Rafale or EF-2000. The F-22 isn't on offer(as yet atleast) to any country in the world. The F-35 doesn't have super-cruise or isn't as maneuverable as the F-22 but the radar and stealth are close to the F-22. The avionics are expected to be superior by the time it enters service.

 

[Contrarian]

One shouldn't be underestimating the F-35. If you see the recent developments in its development program you'll find that its even superior to the F-22 in several respects. The APG-81 is technically superior to the APG-77 and by 2012 when induction starts you can safely assume that it would be the best AESA in service. The F-35's P&W F135 engine in recent tests produced a thrust of 40000lbs which is unrivalled in the world(the F-22's F119 produces 35000lbs). With thrust vectoring it could be very very maneuvarable. The enormous control surfaces, set far behind the axis of gravity in both as well as far behind the engine, provide an enormous degree of maneuverability.

Well...actually F-35 is technologically a superior plane than the F-22. But its still not better than the F-22 when they meet in combat. We as of now donot know the capabilities of the T-50, we donot know the capabilities of the engines it will use, there were some reports that either the company or govt is not satisfied with Al-41FN engines, they will make a new one for the 5th gen.

Bear in mind, that the T-50 will make its appearence not before 2010, any plane that has started to be designed after its competitor 'normally' has the advantage of knowing what benchmarks need to be used, the technology that needs to be used, etc, etc. Saves hell of a money on RnD and turns out better. Again this is normally, not always.

More than a match is a matter of opinion. Both will 'see' each other well outside the range of their munitions. After that its all a matter of chance and skill. A more fitting example is the Eurofighter against the F-22 or F-35. In such a contest stealth will come into play. The CAPTOR will lockon to the F-22 at a distance of about 15 kms. It'll be shot by the F-22 long before that happens. Stealth matters. And matters a lot.

It matters, but does not make it the only thing important. Planes can win in a fight, without the advantage of stealth. Ofcourse the importance of stealth cannot be denied. But its not the sole factor in a fight.

Well a good level of stealth is one thing. Stealth comparable to the F-22 and B-2 is another. Every aircraft manufacturing country uses RAM. RAM is not a technology like thrust vectoring which you have to develop and master. The quality of Russian RAMs compared to rest of the world is anybody's guess.

RAM's still have to be developed. Composites have to be engineered. Such things take time, Russia too has been at it.

Do you have any figures on the MiG-35s RCS? They have made claims of terrific RCS reduction. But, the result remains to be seen. An RCS in the range of the Rafale and Shornet would be excellent.

I cannot say, but i have reasons to believe that it is very low.

Then again. The US has 15 years of experience. Look at the difference between a the RCS of the EF-2000 and F-35. Its huge. The result of those fifteen years is here to show.

Agreed. EF is a 4th gen fighter, intended to be that. F-35 is fifth. There's a basic gap in their level,ranging from super cruise, to stealth and many in between. T-50 is intended to be a 5th gen fighter, obviously that entails stealth.

Was it? This is news to me. Could you post some links or something.

I am lazy, will do it later

My friend. Without the super-cruise and super-maneuverability the F-22 is still practically invincible. It is almost invisible in the sky. How do you shoot it down? The stealth is the most important feature of the F-22. The super-powerful AESA is the second most important feature.

What if the plane is able to outrun the missile?? or dodge the missile?
But Stealth again is one of the important factors, but i stress, not the only factor in the making of a 5th gen fighter.

Every country is relooking in favour of what? Surely not the Rafale or EF-2000. The F-22 isn't on offer(as yet atleast) to any country in the world. The F-35 doesn't have super-cruise or isn't as maneuverable as the F-22 but the radar and stealth are close to the F-22. The avionics are expected to be superior by the time it enters service.

Yes its not on offer, if you have followed some world news, Australia is in a major debat eon its F-35's. With many politicians saying its better to get an F-22 that offers a quantum leap in ablities than the F-35, whether they will be sold that or not, i am not privy to that. Same for Japan.

The point is F-35 is just not what it was designed to be: a low cost 5th gen fighter. Its ridiculously expensive now.