India, Russia to embark on $45 bln nuclear energy roadmap

[Ajaxpaul]

US dint stand on its head supporting India for nuclear waiver for nothing. They will make sure they get their worth too.

 

[JanjaWeed]

France , Canada will follow soon.

true right.... no amount of NGO protest is going to stop India from going ahead with the projects. Maybe it's time for US to rethink their strategy & get a piece of that pie too!!

 

[SpArK]

true right.... no amount of NGO protest is going to stop India from going ahead with the projects. Maybe it's time for US to rethink their strategy & get a piece of that pie too!!

They have no plans for a nuclear reactor setup. Technology sharing has hit a road block.

But they are fools, the bend every rule for us and we got deals , that too from all corners ...

 

[Yeti]

The nuclear deal with USA was a strategic move yes they would like to win contracts but it was more than than this.

Saran noted that, in the U.S.-Indian nuclear cooperation agreement, the Bush administration pledged to help India amass a strategic fuel reserve and provide fuel supplies for the lifetime of its safeguarded reactors. Yet, at the urging of Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.), the Hyde Act stipulates that fuel supplies should only be “commensurate with reasonable reactor requirements.”

Now is the time for Congress and responsible members of the NSG to hold the Bush administration to Rice’s pledge to support international guidelines for trade with India that, at the very least, incorporate the minimal requirements mandated by U.S. law. If India’s leaders cannot even abide by these minimal standards and decide to reject the deal, that is their choice. Additional concessions to India will only further compromise the already beleaguered global nonproliferation system.


Bush was 10 x better for India than Obama

 

[JanjaWeed]

They have no plans for a nuclear reactor setup. Technology sharing has hit a road block.

But they are fools, the bend every rule for us and we got deals , that too from all corners ...

Problem with them is... they want to do business under their terms, as they do with most of the countries. They don't want to abide by the liability clause put forth by India.. & would rather dictate the terms themselves. When you have every other country willing to follow what India has to day, US seems to have problem adjusting to the local laws. anyway.. their loss is gain for others!

 

[Yeti]

The most important thing at the moment for us is getting Japan to change it's mindset which after fukushima is even harder because the EPR reactors have Japanese technology which we need and that is why there is a delay now.

 

[kam83]

I work for a wind turbine mfg for REPOWER systems, the project is Thornton Bank Phase II, Belgium.

48 meter, 62.5 meter and eventually 78 meter blades producing 6M, 7.6M and eventually ~9MW per turbine.

isn't REpower a subsidary of RPower(ADAG grp company) ......?????

 

[mastaan]

I have a healthy disrespect for ‘experts’ ever since centuries ago they claimed the earth was flat.

However since you claim to be an ‘expert’ on hot air, you must be aware of the 'butterfly effect' that is used to explain chaotic systems like the weather.

There is a study published called ‘Deterministic Nonperiodic Flow‘ (Chaos theory) that shows the mathematical validity of that ‘even a flap of a butterfly’s wings’ can accelerate or even prevent the occurrence of a tornado or change the course of weather forever. This is a well understood and accepted phenomenon used to understand unpredictable systems like weather.

Above Photograph shows the turbulence field behind the offshore wind turbines. This clearly shows how turbulence caused by the turbines is a catalyst for cloud formation or disruption of the same.

You may be willing to wager away the water supply of 1.2 billion people on you ‘expertise’, but I am not.

I am not an expert, but certainly a big time junkie and proudly so... Rain bearing clouds DO NOT exist at 80-100Mtr height mate. So, rest assured, monsoon will have no effect (other than getting some nice pics like you shared)...

BTW... Lovely pic...

The butterfly effect theoretically could also means that any and all natural momentum diminishing actions must be stopped.. like butterfly batting their flaps, or you and me walking or a pole standing the in the middle of a road, no high rising buildings blah blah... Hell, tear down the rising height of Himalayas as well, as every milimeter that Mt Everest grows taller, it stops some good weather from passing over on the other side (and that effect can actually be proven)... If what you are saying is to be the established truth then Californian (Just the Tehachpi pass area of California has more than 20000 (yes!) turbines rotating and I'd be damned if you can prove that tornadoes or cyclones in areas surrounding Tehachpi pass have even 'minutely' increased after the turbines were planted) and whole of north west Texas and whole of Germany should be facing climatic Catastrophies already (as these areas have thousands of currently working wind turbines). By your logic, Newyork skyline, in of itself would have created multiple storms and thus should be lowered... Luckily there is reality and that is different from chaos 'theory' and the 'butterfly effect' is still a consequental post-facto theory and not completely accepted, else taller structures would never come up in this world... remember every living being and non living creature and EVERY man made construction has the butterfly effect when it stops the momentum... If i stretch your theory a bit further, then someday, after we have too many high rises, our earth's rotation should also slow as all the high rise buildings would be stopping the smoothness of earth's rotational effect (OK, enough of trolling!)... nevertheless, your blame on wind turbines is at best childish and unidirectional...

YES, there is a kinetic momentum of wind that every wind turbine eats up. That MAXIMUM THEORETICALLY EXTRACTABLE ENERGY by any wind turbine can be around 53% of the total wind energy that passes the blades and used for converting it to get the force to rotate the blades and thus gets converted into torque for the main shaft of the gearbox/generator (It is know as Betz' law). But the kinetic energy lost is QUICKLY replaced within meters of the turbine and thus one can place another turbine behind this first and so on, without fearing any loss of energy (I can literally SHOW you that simulation, which by the way is Germanischer Lloyd (GL) approved & certified - GL is among the best engineering design stability rating agencies in the world)

And, if you see, even in the pic (even if it is not photoshopped), there are ''wind turbines behind wind turbines''... It is because used Wind gathers the momentum immediately, as the wind from higher atmospheric levels keeps coming down (to complete our natural wind cycle) and that fills up the lost kinetic energy of the wind and by the time wind reaches the next phase, it has terminal kintetic energy that it had left from the last cycle, some wasted energy (which you see in the shape of fluttering of clouds) and then some 'new fresh kinetic energy' provided by new wind...

Thankfully, the world and ALL the governments believe certification agencies and some really rockstar engineers to do that right thing and therefore butterfly effect is not used as an exception against wind turbines (else, wind companies could simply sue the construction of ANY high construction if wind construction is not allowed - and tall buildings are much much higher than your 100-150m height of a wind turbine)...

BTW, I am not wagering a bet. I got a doctorate for stuff like this (I mean it literally) and didn't intend to demean what you said... I was just being literal without getting into specifics... Am happy to answer any questions that you may have... You could also ask @sandy_3126 , as he might also be much better equipped on aerodynamics (given that he works closely with blades)....

Everything else that comes by Nuclear or Oil and Gas lobbying, is just that... lobbying...!

isn't REpower a subsidary of RPower(ADAG grp company) ......?????

Nope, it is a Germany company and I think it's a subsidiary of suzlon

 

[zaxcolix]

YES, there is a kinetic momentum of wind that every wind turbine eats up. That MAXIMUM THEORETICALLY EXTRACTABLE ENERGY by any wind turbine can be around 53% of the total wind energy that passes the blades and used for converting it to get the force to rotate the blades and thus gets converted into torque for the main shaft of the gearbox/generator (It is know as Betz' law). But the kinetic energy lost is QUICKLY replaced within meters of the turbine and thus one can place another turbine behind this first and so on, without fearing any loss of energy (I can literally SHOW you that simulation, which by the way is Germanischer Lloyd (GL) approved & certified - GL is among the best engineering design stability rating agencies in the world)

And, if you see, even in the pic (even if it is not photoshopped), there are ''wind turbines behind wind turbines''... It is because used Wind gathers the momentum immediately, as the wind from higher atmospheric levels keeps coming down (to complete our natural wind cycle) and that fills up the lost kinetic energy of the wind and by the time wind reaches the next phase, it has terminal kintetic energy that it had left from the last cycle, some wasted energy (which you see in the shape of fluttering of clouds) and then some 'new fresh kinetic energy' provided by new wind...

Thankfully, the world and ALL the governments believe certification agencies and some really rockstar engineers to do that right thing and therefore butterfly effect is not used as an exception against wind turbines (else, wind companies could simply sue the construction of ANY high construction if wind construction is not allowed - and tall buildings are much much higher than your 100-150m height of a wind turbine)...

BTW, I am not wagering a bet. I got a doctorate for stuff like this (I mean it literally) and didn't intend to demean what you said... I was just being literal without getting into specifics... Am happy to answer any questions that you may have... You could also ask @sandy_3126 , as he might also be much better equipped on aerodynamics (given that he works closely with blades)....

Everything else that comes by Nuclear or Oil and Gas lobbying, is just that... lobbying...!

I am a bit disappointed that in the course on one posting you demoted yourself from encyclopedia to doctorate. I hope in the next post you will humbly step down to admitting to your opinion being an educated guess, unless of course you have deciphered global weather behavior ! (..or understood all factors affecting south west monsoon behaviour)...otherwise it just gets childish

You have indirectly admitted that there are unforeseeable implications that wind mill farms in the sea can have, which is what my example of butterfly effect was intended to convey.

Studies by Baidya Roy (you might be aware of this study) have already shown Windfarm affect near surface air temperature, making it warmer during the day and cooler during the night. Even the explanation to this phenomenon is only a ‘hypothesis’ that it could be because of vertical mixing due to rotor turbulence.

Baidya Roy own estimate is that the severity of the local weather impact induced by large wind farms would fall somewhere between the environmental costs of deforestation and global warming. In any case none of the regions for low impact wind farming identified by Baidya Roy study lies in the Indian subcontinent.

Research of Daniel Kirk-Davidoff on effect of very large scale wind farms has shown the temperature impact of over 1 degree Celsius. (It has been calculated that a one-degree increase would eliminate fresh water from a third of the world’s land surface by 2100)

It’s interesting you mention Large windmill farms in North West Texas ...I did a bit of digging and this is what I find.

Hot wind farms

New research finds that wind farms actually warm up the surface of the land underneath them during the night, a phenomena that could put a damper on efforts to expand wind energy as a green energy solution.

Researchers used satellite data from 2003 to 2011 to examine surface temperatures across as wide swath of west Texas, which has built four of the world's largest wind farms. The data showed a direct correlation between night-time temperatures increases of 0.72 degrees C (1.3 degrees F) and the placement of the farms.

"Given the present installed capacity and the projected growth in installation of wind farms across the world, I feel that wind farms, if spatially large enough, might have noticeable impacts on local to regional meteorology," Liming Zhou, associate professor at the State University of New York, Albany and author of the paper published April 29 in Nature Climate Change said

And here is the effect ....

In Texas worst drought on record: trees dying by the millions

The National Weather Service has officially declared last year as the driest on record in Texas and the second hottest. Meteorologists predict the situation won't improve much this year. That means water restrictions will continue, and we'll lose millions of trees.

Record-setting heat and little rain in 2011 has left North Texas in a severe drought. The water level at Lake Lavon is down 12 feet.....

However you have rightly pointed out that there is a significant danger of most govt. believing claims by wind mill manufactures and certifying agencies that ‘rockstar’ engineers can play god. Only a study by an agency without ‘conflict of interest’ can even begin to understand the environmental impact of large windmill farms.

I will come to you to understand how to make money on wind mills ...but to understand the impact of windmill farms on India I would prefer to go to someone who does not stand to gain by ‘educating me’.

But your post was informative so please feel free to share some more information on wind mills.

PS: The image is not photoshopped. It was taken during a Unique meteorological conditions which resulted in the wind turbines creating condensation (i.e. clouds) of the very humid air, thus making it possible to see the turbulence pattern behind the wind turbines.

 

[Skull and Bones]

Which tells me that you work with GE or Siemens

On a serious note... Which wind farm are you talking about???

Indian Suzlon is also a world leader in wind energy solutions.

 

[Shardul.....the lion]

Wind power generation is already going great guns in India. In my district Satara, anywhere you go you will see the wind turbines on mountain tops.
Suzlon energy in Satara district generates 259 MWe electricity. India needs to exploit all the options available nuclear, wind, solar or any other options.
Wind power in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
India has fifth largest windpower capacity in world.

 

[neehar]

Wind turbines come from some KW machines and all the way up to 6MW machines... So, you have to know which wind turbine and which wind regime are you talking about, to estimate the real output of the machine... I know for a fact that some machines have actually a plant load factor of 45% in high wind zones and that is bloody good for a non-conventional energy source...

well said..we have 7500 km of coast line..and avg 300 sunny days/year..we have the luxury the west doesnt have.the installing cost might be higher but the maintainance and other costs are comparitively less..with the limited windpower we're now the world's 5th largest wind energy producer.with out even exploring our strengths why are we running behind the west???besides..we have 31% of t&d losses which is worse..according to power ministry our generation is 209 GW of which 62 GW is lost............
http://www.powermin.nic.in/indian_electricity_scenario/introduction.htm
but i'm happy atleast nuclear energy is cleaner and more efficient than coal..

 

[zaxcolix]

Wind power generation is already going great guns in India. In my district Satara, anywhere you go you will see the wind turbines on mountain tops.
Suzlon energy in Satara district generates 259 MWe electricity. India needs to exploit all the options available nuclear, wind, solar or any other options.
Wind power in India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
India has fifth largest windpower capacity in world.

If you have a house or farm near that location my advice would be to sell it while you can and get out .

The symptoms of living near a wind farm vary from dizziness; balance problems; memory loss; inability to concentrate; insomnia; tachycardia; increased blood pressure; raised cortisol levels; headaches; nausea; mood swings; anxiety; tinnitus; palpitations and depression.


Investigation finds thousands of people living near wind farms falling sick

Here is a joint study by USA, Canada & UK

Effects of industrial wind turbine noise on sleep and health

Conclusion: We conclude that the noise emissions of IWTs disturbed the sleep and caused daytime sleepiness and impaired mental health in residents living within 1.4 km of the two IWT installations studied. Industrial wind turbine noise is a further source of environmental noise, with the potential to harm human health. Current regulations seem to be insufficient to adequately protect the human population living close to IWTs. Our research suggests that adverse effects are observed at distances even beyond 1 km. Further research is needed to determine at what distances risks become negligable, as well as to better estimate the portion of the population suffering from adverse effects at a given distance.

 

[neehar]

If you have a house or farm near that location my advice would be to sell it while you can and get out .

The symptoms of living near a wind farm vary from dizziness; balance problems; memory loss; inability to concentrate; insomnia; tachycardia; increased blood pressure; raised cortisol levels; headaches; nausea; mood swings; anxiety; tinnitus; palpitations and depression.


Investigation finds thousands of people living near wind farms falling sick

i say its better than living beside a nuclear plant or a thermal plant

 

[mastaan]

Research of Daniel Kirk-Davidoff on effect of very large scale wind farms has shown the temperature impact of over 1 degree Celsius. (It has been calculated that a one-degree increase would eliminate fresh water from a third of the world’s land surface by 2100)

It’s interesting you mention Large windmill farms in North West Texas ...I did a bit of digging and this is what I find.

Hot wind farms




And here is the effect ....

In Texas worst drought on record: trees dying by the millions




However you have rightly pointed out that there is a significant danger of most govt. believing claims by wind mill manufactures and certifying agencies that ‘rockstar’ engineers can play god. Only a study by an agency without ‘conflict of interest’ can even begin to understand the environmental impact of large windmill farms.

I will come to you to understand how to make money on wind mills ...but to understand the impact of windmill farms on India I would prefer to go to someone who does not stand to gain by ‘educating me’.

But your post was informative so please feel free to share some more information on wind mills.

I am glad if your first statement gave you a kick I was trying to be honest. Take it or leave it is your choice. To say that GL is biased is something I would believe only if substantiated, else we are just engaging in a meaningless speculative match... Personally, I find your general swipe a bit offending of the hard work done by a truly global organization (and I don't work for GL)

I don't know 'how do you link' a drought in Texas to a scientist's hypothesis that wind turbines heat the ground during night (where the scientist mentions that he is still strengthening the data and that texas is anyways a dry and arid state). While you are affraid of 'expected unforseeable events', Californian authorities are planning to replace the small tehachpi turbines with bigger ones (utility's name is Nextera/FP&L) and Germany and UK are adding atleast 10,000 new turbines offshore over the next 15 years (assuming average size at 5MW)...

So, what you are doing here is fear mongering, based on one or a small set of reports (which ideally are funded by oil and gas folks) and surprisingly to you, everyone who supports the wind is biased and everyone who's not supporting wind speaks the gospel... I do find that amusing... It is OK to be concerned, but it is NOT OK to become a paranoid my friend.

I tried to answer your initial assumption that the 'butterfly effect' is generally ' established in post facto of events' and therefore it never gets accepted. Now you go to ground heating and I tell you, if it was that established a fact, then Texas and California and their ilks would still not be installing more turbines than ever... Ask yourself, why don't you apply your same effect on highrises? It HAS the same effect based on the chaos theory (actually high rises would have worse off effects)

And I come back again to the GL point... To say that GL or a global certification agency is biased is again speculative and i don't know why should i prove it to you that it is trustworthy or not, when you have no real context (except hypothesis and some obscure report of an effect). it should ideally take a lot more to mistrust an established institution...

And, Wind Industry guys don't gain by educating you and neither did I intend to lecture (and that was not the intention. It was just a flash from the past and seemed like an interesting conversation - MY apologies if I sounded professorial)... For wind in India, Farooq Abdullah, Finance Secretariat and Indian Banks are genuinely convinced and that is all that matters

Will wait for the first pic of the God particle and also look forward to your sensational study on weather altering influence of large wind turbines (Pun intended in a lighter vein )... I rest my case to enjoy the lethargy of last week of the year. Cheers!