India, Russia close to agreement on next generation fighter

[ironman]

India to develop 25% of fifth generation fighter​

Ajai Shukla / New Delhi January 6, 2010, 0:36 IST

But the newcomer wants its due. Bangalore-based HAL has negotiated firmly to get a 25 per cent share of design and development work in the FGFA programme. HAL’s work share will include critical software, including the mission computer (the Su-30MKI mission computer is entirely Indian); navigation systems; most of the cockpit displays; the counter measure dispensing (CMD) systems; and modifying Sukhoi’s single-seat prototype into the twin-seat fighter that the Indian Air Force (IAF) wants.

THE FIFTH GENERATION FIGHTER

Cost of development $8-10 billion
India's requirement 250 fighters
Russia's requirement 250 fighters
Cost per aircraft $100 million
Indian name FGFA
Russian name PAK FA

India will also contribute its expertise in aircraft composites, developed while designing the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). Russia has traditionally built metallic aircraft; just 10 per cent of the Su-30MKI fuselage is titanium and composites. The FGFA’s fuselage, in contrast, will be 25 per cent titanium and 20 per cent composites. Russia’s expertise in titanium structures will be complemented by India’s experience in composites.

With India’s work share almost finalised, the 2007 Russia-India Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) to build the FGFA will soon evolve into a commercial contract between Russia’s United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) and HAL. Ashok Baweja, until recently the chairman of HAL, told Business Standard: “When HAL and UAC agree on terms, they will sign a General Contract. This will include setting up a JV to design the FGFA, and precise details about who will fund what.”

This contract will mark a significant shift in the aeronautical relationship between India and Russia. For decades, HAL has played a technologically subordinate role, assembling and building fighters that Russia had designed. Now, forced to accept HAL as a design partner, the Russians have negotiated hard to limit its role.

The reason: Russia is sceptical about India’s design ability in such a cutting edge project. In June 2008, Business Standard interviewed Vyacheslav Trubnikov, then Russia’s ambassador to India, and an expert on Russia’s defence industry. Contrasting the Su-30MKI with the Tejas LCA, Trubnikov pointed out snidely, “I know perfectly well the Russian ability. But I don’t know what contribution the Indian side might make. So, one must ask the question to the Indian designers, to HAL…what is their claim for building a fighter of the fifth generation type? Either avionics, or engine? What might be India’s contribution? To be absolutely frank, I don’t know.”

For long, the UAC argued that HAL could not expect a major role in the FGFA because Sukhoi had finished much of the work while New Delhi dithered about joining the project. UAC asserts that 5,000 Sukhoi engineers have worked for five years to design the FGFA. Such claims are hard to verify, but it is known that the Sukhoi Design Bureau has about 8,000 engineers, distributed between many different programmes.

With Sukhoi’s ploughing on alone, Minister of State for Defence Pallam Raju admitted to Business Standard: “The longer India waits to join the project, the lesser will be our contribution. But, we are not sitting idle. Through the defence ministry’s existing programmes [such as the Tejas LCA] we are building up our capabilities.”

Most Indian officials agree that India has not lost much. Even if the FGFA makes its much-anticipated first flight this year, it is still at a preliminary stage of development. Ashok Baweja assessed in early 2009, “The FGFA’s first flight is just the beginning of the programme. My understanding is that the Russians are going ahead (with the test) to validate the FGFA’s “proof of concept” (conceptual design). Whatever composite materials they have now, they’ll use. But, because the composites will change… the FGFA will keep evolving for a fairly long time.”

A top ministry official estimates, “It will take another 4-5 years to develop many of the FGFA’s systems. Then, the aircraft will undergo at least 2000 hours of certification flying and, possibly, some reconfiguration. The FGFA should not be expected in service before 2017. And the twin-seat version may take a couple of years longer.”

With just a 25 per cent share of design, South Block policymakers still believe that the FGFA project is a vital step towards India’s emergence as a military aeronautical power. “Developing 25 per cent of this fighter is far better than just transferring technology to build it in India, as we did with the Su-30MKI,” points out a defence ministry official.

Ashok Baweja puts the project in context. “India can only (develop the FGFA) by partnering with Russia. They have so much experience. It’s not just the design… you must also have materials… maraging steel, titanium, composite alloys, and the industrial base to convert these into high-tech components like gyros, sensors and optics. The FGFA will give us important experience for building fighters hereafter.”

 

[UchihaCG]

Are you sure that all the critical component technologies are transfered to India for the whole MKI?

I'm certain that it would take a long time for Russia to transfer PAKFA tech to India as India is not an equal partner. India is the junior partner to this deal. By the time India is ready to absort the technology, US already has the 6th generation prototype.

As US is the primary partner in JSF, it definitely has the control over the technology. The export variant of JSF is not as stealthy as the US ones.

What you just GUESSED that India's not an equal partner? did you call your friends in Russia and ask?

"We will share the funding, engineering and intellectual property in a 50-50 proportion," Sukhoi director-general Mikhail Pogosyan said. The Indian version of the FGFA would be different from the Russian version because of specific Indian requirements, he said.

Asia Times Online :: South Asia news - India, Russia still brothers in arms

 

[Kinshuk]

Oh my God. This is enormous. And btw I like Sir from Taiwan, at least he is wanting India to posses technology as advanced as states. lol! Though we are happy the way we our. India and US economy complement each other. Though Russia has been our supplier, partner now, since long. We are satisfied with what we have. Its not cold war era that we should be in a race to be on the top. Though every country needs to posses decent technology to take care of its national security. We are doing that.

 

[faithfulguy]

What you just GUESSED that India's not an equal partner? did you call your friends in Russia and ask?



Asia Times Online :: South Asia news - India, Russia still brothers in arms

50%? either you are right or the one above you is correct.

 

[karan.1970]

50%? either you are right or the one above you is correct.

Its a 50-50 partnership in terms of ownership of design, funding Intellectual property etc.

Does not mean that Russia and India will design equal number of components. That is so impractical. Russia is an established Aircraft developer and India is still finding its feet with its first set of LCAs just about entering service. It will be ridiculous to imagine that the efforts towards the design of the aircraft will be equally split.

This in no way diminishes India's partnership in the project. You can draw a parallel to a partnership in a new Technology company where one party gets the technical know how and the second party provides a major chunk of funding and an assured orderbook for first few years. Both are equally important for success of the venture and does not make one partner as junior or senior..

cheers

 

[faithfulguy]

Its a 50-50 partnership in terms of ownership of design, funding Intellectual property etc.

Does not mean that Russia and India will design equal number of components. That is so impractical. Russia is an established Aircraft developer and India is still finding its feet with its first set of LCAs just about entering service. It will be ridiculous to imagine that the efforts towards the design of the aircraft will be equally split.

This in no way diminishes India's partnership in the project. You can draw a parallel to a partnership in a new Technology company where one party gets the technical know how and the second party provides a major chunk of funding and an assured orderbook for first few years. Both are equally important for success of the venture and does not make one partner as junior or senior..

cheers

Well, by the way of business, if India is providing more funding, then India is the senior partner in investment. However, this is not the case with nation to nation relationship. As Russia has the technology, its the senior partner in this case.

 

[karan.1970]

Well, by the way of business, if India is providing more funding, then India is the senior partner in investment.

Not true of Hi Tech projects. Funding is just one component

However, this is not the case with nation to nation relationship. As Russia has the technology, its the senior partner in this case.

In technology know how.. Yes.. But in project contract, its a 50 - 50 partnership

Also these terminologies are immaterial as long as said objectives of both parties are met

 

[faithfulguy]

Also these terminologies are immaterial as long as said objectives of both parties are met

I agree with you 100%. The only problem is that this airplane would not be able to compete with F-35 or F-15SE.

 

[sancho]

The only problem is that this airplane would not be able to compete with F-35 or F-15SE.

And this opinion is based on???
Not even a single pic, or at least official specs of Pak Fa / FGFA are out and even the F35 is only under development. Don't you think it is a bit early to conclude things like that?
The F15SE is only an 15 with some RCS reductions features, it's more an upgrade for older versions, but far away from a stealth fighter. Moreover even with those improvements it hardly could compete latest 4+ fighters, but not 5. gen stealth fighters.

AFM, Jan, 2010

Typhoon Over Spain

by Ian Harding, Chris Lofting, and Keith Chilton


1. Before the end of 2009, Spanish AF has acquired 26 EF-2000s in total (19 Tranche I and 7 Tranche II).


2. The experience of Spanish AF's pilot for the flight performance of EF-2000:

"A fighter that is born for flying supersonically ~ even at the height of 10,000ft (3,048 m), flying Typhoon at speeds below Mach 0.9 is not good for the aircraft."

"The supersonical tendency of Typhoon causes problem sometimes to slow it down, especially during the flight of high AoA. There is no idle speed."

"Typhoon performs just as well configured with extra wing and centreline fuel tanks plus weapons. The only noticeable difference is the extra 10 kts required for rotation."


3. During a recent international exercise, two Spanish Typhoons had engaged eight F-15s in one stimulated A2A mission, and the two Typhoon scored hits of seven Eagles finally.

And this was not the first time F15s was beaten up by Typhoons, so why should a 5. gen stealth fighter with similar and even better features than the EF, should have problems against F15s?
And don't forget, that it's more likely that Pak Fa / FGFA will fight JF 17, J10 and J11, than any F15, or F35.

 

[Roby]

I agree with you 100%. The only problem is that this airplane would not be able to compete with F-35 or F-15SE.

Troll alert

 

[xuxu1457]

I do not understand the importance of having TOT when India is not going to do anything with the technology. I think India should buy and operation the best its money can buy and forget about inducting technology as it doesn't do anything with the technology. Furthermore, these tech are too advance for India's current primitive aircraft industry to absorb. By the time India understand the technology. The world is already in Gen 6 airplane, if not Gen 7. India by then is ready to retire the Gen 5 airplanes.

I serious doubt that FGFA is a 50-50 partner as Russia already finished the design and the spec before India became a parter. India is more of a junior partner. The only difference is that its a two seater, like a training aircraft. But in term of technology, its the same as PAK FA.

I think India is been foolish when it chooses an inferior technology when a superior technology is available. Also, India can't do nothing with TOT so it shouldn't even waste money on it.

This is what I want to say FGFA is only a 50-50 partner on R & D expenses but not tech,Russia have no enough money to develop the 5th fighter;by this Russia will get money,India will only get the right to buy the fighter

 

[Kinshuk]

This is what I want to say FGFA is only a 50-50 partner on R & D expenses but not tech,Russia have no enough money to develop the 5th fighter;by this Russia will get money,India will only get the right to buy the fighter

Wrong, Remember SU 30 MKI? We can modify the aircraft with whatever we wish to, Unlike f 15 16 18, we don't have to take US permission to decide what missile should be fired? Whats the purpose of the mission? We will even improve it with avionics from Israel. Dare you do that with F 16? lol.

Your debate is baseless, consider su 30 MKIzed, it surpass any American fighter aircraft in 4++ category.

Moreover you cannot convince us on any of the points u made so for, its India's money, and they know how to best utilise it. And we are satisfied.

 

[Kinshuk]

HAL’s work share will include critical software, including the mission computer (the Su-30MKI mission computer is entirely Indian); navigation systems; most of the cockpit displays; the counter measure dispensing (CMD) systems; and modifying Sukhoi’s single-seat prototype into the twin-seat fighter that the Indian Air Force (IAF) wants.

Its not ToT for your kind information, Its joint venture.

Just like any other JV, consider J-17, Pakistan must have played there role in the development of the aircraft but not more than 40%, even that is an over statement. But still it is a JV between China and Pakistan, No doubt about that. Either you gotta learn what JV is or you should stop the debate which is more like a fallacy. Sorry but you have failed to convince.

 

[xuxu1457]

Wrong, Remember SU 30 MKI? We can modify the aircraft with whatever we wish to, Unlike f 15 16 18, we don't have to take US permission to decide what missile should be fired? Whats the purpose of the mission? We will even improve it with avionics from Israel. Dare you do that with F 16? lol.

Your debate is baseless, consider su 30 MKIzed, it surpass any American fighter aircraft in 4++ category.

Moreover you cannot convince us on any of the points u made so for, its India's money, and they know how to best utilise it. And we are satisfied.

If india can get the tech of the 5th tech,then congratulation;But please remember ,what Russia did to India on the buying second-carrier;besides,India should choose the appropriate tech but not the most advanced,India can use this to improve your own weapon system such as LCA and tank or inut a Su-30 make line

 

[Kinshuk]

If india can get the tech of the 5th tech,then congratulation;But please remember ,what Russia did to India on the buying second-carrier;besides,India should choose the appropriate tech but not the most advanced,India can use this to improve your own weapon system such as LCA and tank or inut a Su-30 make line

Who says we are not opting for the appropriate tecnology?
Regarding Gorshkov,
``India is likely to shell out around $2.5 billion and get the carrier by early-2013,'' said a source.

What Russia has to do anything in this regard? It was the company who quoted rise in upgradation prices, which India was quite reluctant about, though things are smooth now, country has nothing to do with that, please be advised as they are also doing business. They won't just spit out money from their own pocket. Where we are shelling out multi billions 2.1 was not a very big deal though it has to have value for money, and I myself agree on a point that they should have signed an agreement on future derivative basis, It was poor from Indian side.