India raised objection to Pakistan F-16 refit during "each and every" bilateral meeting with US

[Signalian]

The bombs were H4 SOWs ie Raptor II. Dropped and guided from Mirage III/Vs. REK was not used.

This is the booster set of H4 SOWs recovered. Indian media erroneously calls it bombs, its just the boosters of Raptor II (H4 SOW) (@denel comments?). These boosters give H4 SOWs their longer range (about 120 or so KM).

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Source : Denel's posters

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IAF couldn't manage to shoot down either aircraft - launch or control aircraft, as they were backed up by F-16s armed with AMRAAM and when IAF finally realized that bombing has taken place and sent in Migs and SU30s then disaster struck IAF which also resulted in friendly fire incident of Mi-17 SAR helicopter.

So its not just the H4 SOWs, its the whole Ops.

 

[vishwambhar]

Is India anybody's friend? The US knows that "friendship" with India can only go so far. Nevertheless, the US would take India into consideration (and may even have consulted with them) about this F-16 deal. The deal is for the maintenance of the existing F-16 fleet. It doesn't include the purchase of new or used F-16s, or upgrades like AESA radars, etc. The US also has to consider its interests, in this case giving more money to the military-industrial complex. After all, the monster needs to be fed.



India still suffers an inferiority complex vis-a-vis Pakistan with this overreaction to this news. You would think that in 2022 that India would look beyond Pakistan but it can't. You have a whole industry devoted to Pakistan bashing, especially the media. I've lost count of how many channels on YouTube are devoted strictly to criticizing India.

India has surpassed Pakistan in many ways but still, this attitude persists. India has acquired some impressive military equipment in the S-400 and Rafale, but it's not enough to make India secure. Hopefully, India will outgrow this thinking.

There is nothing like inferiority complex or fear when we protest.... Stop spreading wrong image here.....

Why didn't we utter even a word when J10 a far superior system landed in the subcontinent or why didn't we utter a word when VT4 landed in subcontinent???

Simply because our enemy China has supplied it to Pakistan and any of our protest stands no chance of being entertained.....

With America I know they want us against China but with our new found alliance with them give us at least some hopes to explore chances to hold these supplies.... So what is a harm to try your luck???

As I told in previous post how super power America was making noise when Russia decided to sell AK 47 to Venezuela under Chavez...

Here we at least can fight against F16???? Or we shouldn't???

I think you people are making unnecessary issue of India protest which is not at all wrong off course from her point of view.... I'm on other hand happy to see how India playing her cards wisely.....

Although I agree Pakistan is doing exactly what every nation will do for its safety....

 

[HydraChess]

IAF couldn't manage to shoot down either aircraft - launch or control aircraft, as they were backed up by F-16s armed with AMRAAM and when IAF finally realized that bombing has taken place and sent in Migs and SU30s then disaster struck IAF which also resulted in friendly fire incident of Mi-17 SAR helicopter.

So its not just the H4 SOWs, its the whole Ops.

Absolutely correct. IAF has shown utter lack of professionalism and readiness. It missed targets in Balakot, it did not have ANY aircover for its bases in such a critical place. It did not mobilize itself WITH forewarning. It was totally unprepared for even basic electronic warfare. Basically a total clusterfuck.

Makes one wonder, if it was specifically given orders to fail? I think its both. Indian government's total apathy towards modernisation of forces and Indian tacticians and strategist hitting below their weight tendency. They love to call it "intelligence driven proportionate response". We call it farting without shitting.

 

[Signalian]

Why didn't we utter even a word when J10 a far superior system landed in the subcontinent or why didn't we utter a word when VT4 landed in subcontinent???

Here we at least can fight against F16???? Or we shouldn't???

If you understand the psyche of Indian military, they hold western systems in high esteem. It can be seen from many factors, SU30 fell short so Rafale was considered a savior - agar Rafale hota to ....Then the AH64 and P-8s apart from other purchases like C-130. Also the K-9 howitzer, though Asian but made after experience from M-109s.

F-16 is a fear factor for IAF since 1980s, which is why M2K and Mig-29, both were sought by IAF, the situation is almost same now with SU-30 and handful of Rafale.

 

[vishwambhar]

If you understand the psyche of Indian military, they hold western systems in high esteem. It can be seen from many factors, SU30 fell short so Rafale was considered a savior - agar Rafale hota to ....Then the AH64 and P-8s apart from other purchases like C-130. Also the K-9 howitzer, though Asian but made after experience from M-109s.

F-16 is a fear factor for IAF since 1980s, which is why M2K and Mig-29, both were sought by IAF, the situation is almost same now with SU-30 and handful of Rafale.

I have explained this many times and today last time I am repeating.... Firstly please do not try to teach us about western systems....

Apart from Russian weapons we have enough large experience of operating western systems including vertical take off capable Harriers to Mirages and Jaguars, to HDW submarines....

Secondly last time on Rafale when I replied you unnecessarily gave me negetive rating when I just replied that Rafale deal was signed in 2016 much before 27th February 2019.... So please don't try to spread false impression of IAF rushing for Rafale after 27th February 2019.... Rafael joined in 2020 in fact a little late than committed date..... So there was nothing like emergency or running like headless chicken.....

Now on agar Rafale hota......
If you have time and seriously want to prove your point then I suggest you to dig out last election history to see how Pappu and his congress was targetting modi left right and centre on Rafale deal.... It was a perfect opportunity for a politician like him to justify a deal which fanboys will never understand....

 

[HydraChess]

F-16 is a fear factor for IAF since 1980s, which is why M2K and Mig-29, both were sought by IAF, the situation is almost same now with SU-30 and handful of Rafale.

F-16 is a very reliable and battle test plane. Its weapons have been used in wars around the world and are fine tuned after several decades of experience. Its a plane whose results in sky that matters, papers not withstanding.
Good thing you folks are getting planes that are Made in China.

 

[doorstar]

Why didn't we utter even a word when J10 a far superior system landed in the subcontinent or why didn't we utter a word when VT4 landed in subcontinent???

because you have no leverage with China. had you objected they'd have slapped you black and blue.

it is different with amreeka where you do have leverage as long as it keeps believing that you will be its cannon fodder during a future conflict with China.

 

[Signalian]

I have explained this many times and today last time I am repeating.... Firstly please do not try to teach us about western systems....

Apart from Russian weapons we have enough large experience of operating western systems including vertical take off capable Harriers to Mirages and Jaguars, to HDW submarines....

Secondly last time on Rafale when I replied you unnecessarily gave me negetive rating when I just replied that Rafale deal was signed in 2016 much before 27th February 2019.... So please don't try to spread false impression of IAF rushing for Rafale after 27th February 2019.... Rafael joined in 2020 in fact a little late than committed date..... So there was nothing like emergency or running like headless chicken.....

Now on agar Rafale hota......
If you have time and seriously want to prove your point then I suggest you to dig out last election history to see how Pappu and his congress was targetting modi left right and centre on Rafale deal.... It was a perfect opportunity for a politician like him to justify a deal which fanboys will never understand....

I gave you a perspective from Indian Military's standing and the fear factor of F-16. What you hold as opinion is your own matter. JFT and J-10 do not hold the threat value of F-16 in IAF's pov.

 

[vishwambhar]

because you have no leverage with China. had you objected they'd have slapped you black and blue.

it is different with amreeka where you do have leverage as long as it keeps believing that you will be its cannon fodder during a future conflict with China.

Then did I say anything different??? My friend please read my post carefully and then reply.... Please....

I gave you a perspective from Indian Military's standing and the fear factor of F-16. What you hold as opinion is your own matter. JFT and J-10 do not hold the threat value of F-16 in IAF's pov.

But whatever examples you gave were absolutely wrong.... Apache, C130, Rafale and others were signed much before 27th February.... so it was not Pakistan that made India to rush over and that is certain....

And seriously I don't consider a few minutes skirmish as a yardstick to judge who is better..... Mistakes happen....

 

[doorstar]

Then did I say anything different??? My friend please read my post carefully and then reply.... Please....

oops! I apologize, I'm old and slow-witted so make allowances for me please

 

[vishwambhar]

oops! I apologize, I'm old and slow-witted so make allowances for me please

No problem my friend....

 

[Arsalan345]

F-16 is a fantastic jet. F-16s are more than enough for India. Pakistan should release a statement like cry more etc. haha We must behave aggressively.

 

[TigerOfMysore]

India is in a zero sum game. Sad we in Pakistan dont realize it. They will hurt us in everything, from Davis Cup to Kabadi, to Cricket, to IPL - you name it. Any forum big or large, even global university campuses, academia appointments, corporate decisions etc. Don't let exceptions fool you. So no surprise this is the policy they drive.
Only our leaders and some in the public dont realize how in the minds of the Indians, Pakistan is a nation that needs to fail or be undone. It is solidly engrained in their minds.

 

[One_Nation]

If you understand the psyche of Indian military, they hold western systems in high esteem. It can be seen from many factors, SU30 fell short so Rafale was considered a savior - agar Rafale hota to ....Then the AH64 and P-8s apart from other purchases like C-130. Also the K-9 howitzer, though Asian but made after experience from M-109s.

F-16 is a fear factor for IAF since 1980s, which is why M2K and Mig-29, both were sought by IAF, the situation is almost same now with SU-30 and handful of Rafale.

Indian goal is to be superior to Pakistan given their size and money they have. They are at their best stage in history while Pakistan is at its lowest. They want to win every battle easily. This is what Americans also expect from them.
When Pakistan comes out as equal or better like it happened in 2019, Indian ego is hurt and Americans are disappointed.
In this situation even a Pakistani foot soldier with rocket will make them afraid.

 

[Signalian]

Americans are disappointed.

You have mentioned a very important point. The USA and Pakistan relationship.

Here on PDF, there is an in-built chip injected in veins of members that Pakistan Govt and Military top brass are yes-men for USA for different reasons- national and personal. This isn't the case but since IK (status God-mode) said so that he received a mysterious letter so at once, the next day, a monumental exposure took place that Pakistan's decision makers in power are actually listening to USA how to run Pakistan. In this case USA is the devil and Pakistan's decision makers are the followers. USA and Pakistan both deal according to their own interests. There have been no proofs - only speculations, analysis, catharsis, stories, etc - all for political reasons.

Political parties are designed and run for one reason only - to win. Whether that party is Pakistani, American, Indian, Turkish, etc. A political party's aim, its existence is to win and stay in power. When, for whatever reason, its ousted from power, it will not sit still unless it comes back in power.

Pakistan knows that America will never ever be happy or contended with Pakistan for a basic reason that Pakistan sits in the ring of another superpower which is China. CPEC is a reality, nuclear weapons, etc. Apart from this, there is a lot of misunderstanding between USA and Pakistan so both countries move according to their mutual interests.