India-Pakistan Talks - 2010

[chantpapipart2]

If we were fouly talking about water issues.Then why did indian team aeive here and assured to talk to indian govt about the issues?and why are pakistani officals going there.Try to act like a adult

Just because we are talking about IWT that doesn't mean we accept your stand on the issue. By the same logic we are talking about terrorism.. Does that mean Pakistan accepts its involvement? Weird logic.

 

[Always Neutral]

We should cancel Indian overhead flights. Only 12 flights of Pakistan need to fly over India while, 120+ Indian flights need to go over Pakistan. The last time we did this - or in fact India did this and Pakistan followed suit, India came running for peace.

Brave words but its not going to happen ? Their national airlines is in shambles anyway and is trying to lease its planes out to the other airlines.

In such an eventuality they just have to start code sharing with other airlines i.e. it would be a BA flight in which 60 % seats would be booked by BA and 40 % by their national carrier. If necessary they can increase frequency of the BA flights to India. Are you going to ban all airlines flying over Pakistan to India?

Also if Pakistan did that unilaterally to India than nothing stops India from stopping / diverting your waters originating from Kashmir under some excuse without breaking the Indus Treaty?

Ouch that will hurt someone and don't tell me you will attack India in such a situation! You know you need a minimum military balance of 1:3 in your favor to do that.

Regards

 

[karan.1970]

All these "subtleties" will be measured at inflow and the favour will be returned in a different currency. If we are sitting here on an internet discussion board thinking that the water pilfering conducted by India will be so subtle as to be un-noticeable or so 'under the radar' that it will be immune to retaliation, then I would say we are terribly mistaken.

Now that this "talks" fiasco is almost over, the gloves are about to come off. Since nothing else seems to work, I would say it is back to causing each other as much pain as possible. Let's see what happens in the days ahead...

Think you got me a little wrong there.. Didnt mention immunity from retaliation. Was predominantly talking about threashold of a full scale war or international sanctions. Both the sides have been playing smart and staying below that level till date. Dont see that changing in near future.

We anyway have been trading these currencies for last 60 years. Dont see much changing..

Fully agree to your last paragraph.. Fortunately this time around the govt in India has enough majority in the parliament to take some punitive measures of its own. If I believe the whole hoo-ha about water pilferage as true, then I guess thats already happening. But I am surprised if thats the case, why have the complaints to World bank from pakistan have not resulted in any noise from them...

 

[karan.1970]

The question is, why would we want India to come 'running for peace?'

If memory serves, it was the Indian side that initiated this recent talks offer. We can argue all day about how America twisted Manmohan's arm and how he had to give in, but that is besides the point. India, at the end of the day, initiated the offer.

If we're discussing ways in which we can hurt each other, the air transit issue is small fry... there are very significant problems that can be created for both sides. I've noticed that in many of your posts you keep bringing up India's supposed ability to use water as leverage. I will have to disagree. Here's why. Water will only serve as leverage if India pilfers enough of it to make a real difference. At that point, not only will the IWT be seriously violated with the arbitration/diplomatic implications of it coming into play, if it gets too bad, make no mistake, Pakistan will probably not discourage Kashmiri freedom fighters from "reconfiguring" the offending dam(s).

Then what? Full on war? Fine. You have to ask yourself if India will risk full scale destruction to hold on to the water card.

On the other hand, there is no IWT like treaty on oil/gas and trade transit. Nor is there any agreement or treaty that requires Pakistan to allow India to access Afghanistan or Central Asia. Long term, I think the water leverage is hokey because the scenario just doesn't play out to a logical conclusion where Pakistan is significantly harmed and can't do anything in return. On the other hand, Pakistan can justifiably and without violating any treaties, prevent India from accessing the world's largest reservoirs of energy. That's just one type of potential response.

My post was to refute the post from Asim where he commented that last time closure of air space resulted in India coming running for peace. And my post was exactly in agreement to your point that closure of airspace is at best a token gesture..

I disagree with your assessment of the water angle. There is enough that can be done to hurt Pakistan thru this card. Understand the hypothetical objective will not be to damage pakistan, but to simply pay back in the same coin for the terror strikes in India. Its more of a tit for tat than an attempt to damage a country or its economy. Just like Pakistan holds the threat of terrorism over india to try and get its way on Kashmir, India can do the same on the water issue and I hope they do...

The talk about asking Kashmiri militants to reconfigure etc is like Zaid Hamid cr?p and dont think I should respond to that..

 

[Awesome]

Why is it hurting so much ?

As mentioned by ppl here, talks held thus far have not yielded much, it more symbolism.

... and as mentioned in the preceding post, if it could have been done - it would have been done.

Actually it just helps keep the ante, up. India does something, we should do something in return - we can compete in who's more pissed off with the other too.

So block Indian flights, all transit facilities.

 

[Awesome]

Brave words but its not going to happen ? Their national airlines is in shambles anyway and is trying to lease its planes out to the other airlines.

In such an eventuality they just have to start code sharing with other airlines i.e. it would be a BA flight in which 60 % seats would be booked by BA and 40 % by their national carrier. If necessary they can increase frequency of the BA flights to India. Are you going to ban all airlines flying over Pakistan to India?

Also if Pakistan did that unilaterally to India than nothing stops India from stopping / diverting your waters originating from Kashmir under some excuse without breaking the Indus Treaty?

Ouch that will hurt someone and don't tell me you will attack India in such a situation! You know you need a minimum military balance of 1:3 in your favor to do that.

Regards

The national airlines has been in shambles since time immemorial. The real money making flights are to Dubai, London and the US, which will still stay up.

Also if Pakistan did that unilaterally to India than nothing stops India from stopping / diverting your waters originating from Kashmir under some excuse without breaking the Indus Treaty?

India did it unilaterally before, we responded. Pakistan really needs an excuse to damage India's dam infrastructure over the water issues anyway. As I said, India does something, we have to do something in return. The cycle goes on. There's no pleasure in it, it just has to be done. No other way.

 

[Spring Onion]

India keeps on blowing hot and cold not a new thing.

But this is very unfortunate that Indian "democracy" bowed to Hindu fundamentalist organisations' pressure.

Anyway US-Pak cooperation is going pretty good

 

[PlanetWarrior]

I think Govt. should throw this talks in rubish and tell em not to support terrorism or face the darn concequences.

You talking for the Indian government ? Strange

 

[Always Neutral]

The national airlines has been in shambles since time immemorial. The real money making flights are to Dubai, London and the US, which will still stay up.

QUOTE]

I was talking about the Indian National Airline not Pakistan. As regards hitting Indian Dams is out of the question as it still does not guarantee water.

Firstly there are enough canals to to divert the water and I doubt you can bomb whole of Kashmir?

Just as you laugh at India not being USA to carry out surgical strikes I would hope you donot think that you are capable of doing that and then sustaining a second strike.

Staus quo is the only way for both.

Regards

 

[chantpapipart2]

Pakistan really needs an excuse to damage India's dam infrastructure over the water issues anyway.

First of all, make sure you have the capacity to do it and your establishment is capable in handling the repercussions (militarily and diplomatically).

 

[karan.1970]

The national airlines has been in shambles since time immemorial. The real money making flights are to Dubai, London and the US, which will still stay up.


India did it unilaterally before, we responded. Pakistan really needs an excuse to damage India's dam infrastructure over the water issues anyway. As I said, India does something, we have to do something in return. The cycle goes on. There's no pleasure in it, it just has to be done. No other way.

What I find funny is that when its in the air talks of a surgical strike by India, there is a bluster of Pakistan inflicting crippling damage to India, or even a nuclear conflict in the offing and then in the same breath we have folks threatning to destroy indian dams by a similar surgical or terror strike..c'mon guys, get real...

 

[blueoval79]

India keeps on blowing hot and cold not a new thing.

But this is very unfortunate that Indian "democracy" bowed to Hindu fundamentalist organisations' pressure.

Anyway US-Pak cooperation is going pretty good

Well looks like ... initial euphoria of " Humne Ghutne Nahi teke" has subsided.......and Pakistani intelegencia has realized that they have achieved nothing... at least diplomatically.....on the one hand ...GOP has to tow its line ....."We want to speak to India " and on the other hand it has to pacify the segment that wants Kashmir to be in the forefront.....but they never thought India will only agree to talk about terrorism.

May be thats pissing them off.....


America......Ahem....the great relationship....what can one say.....From America Bhai Bhai...to America Hai...Hai...to America Bye Bye...to America Paisa Laye.....sure this is a great relationship.

 

[PlanetWarrior]

India keeps on blowing hot and cold not a new thing.

But this is very unfortunate that Indian "democracy" bowed to Hindu fundamentalist organisations' pressure.

Anyway US-Pak cooperation is going pretty good

For now. Wait until another bomb goes off in a western city and watch the drone attacks resume. Then all the Blackwater , CIA , bad bad Uncle Sam will resume again in Pakistan until Aunty Hillary comes in to give you a tongue lashing. The advantage which India faces in the Pak - USA relationship is that you guys are never consistent in your policy towards the USA and that is due to your nature. That is an advantage which will always be on the Indian side. I suspect that these talks are being initiated by India to satisfy the Yanks so that they in turn will accept some business or other proposal from India. Our politicians are smart enough to know that sooner or later you will again peeve off the Yanks and then will be the appropriate time to say "oops I forgot that you condone terrorism against India and therefore I am suspending talks again"

 

[Awesome]

The national airlines has been in shambles since time immemorial. The real money making flights are to Dubai, London and the US, which will still stay up.

QUOTE]

I was talking about the Indian National Airline not Pakistan. As regards hitting Indian Dams is out of the question as it still does not guarantee water.

Firstly there are enough canals to to divert the water and I doubt you can bomb whole of Kashmir?

Just as you laugh at India not being USA to carry out surgical strikes I would hope you donot think that you are capable of doing that and then sustaining a second strike.

Staus quo is the only way for both.

Regards

We can bomb India through cruise missiles. India would probably want to bomb us back and how we handle that is another story.

But if we wanted to bomb Dams, the dams would get bombed.

 

[Awesome]

What I find funny is that when its in the air talks of a surgical strike by India, there is a bluster of Pakistan inflicting crippling damage to India, or even a nuclear conflict in the offing and then in the same breath we have folks threatning to destroy indian dams by a similar surgical or terror strike..c'mon guys, get real...

Yes you probably can give a massive response, but I'm saying there would come a point where we won't care.

Beyond a certain point we'd go nuclear as well - we have a first use policy.