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India, Pakistan locked in their animosities

I never thought I would ever see that but a post from Asim made me emotional. ;)

I was surprised when both of my Pakistani clients from Karachi called me on 27th morning to confirm if I am in good health and the siege havent affected me.

I was quite emotional too.
 
move onwards man! this is what Asim is saying. 99% pakistanis are not the monsters the indian media is trying to portray!

the islamist parties were resoundingly beaten in the last pak elections! what does that tell you about the feelings of the pakistanis!


Yes, yes, move onwards... but where & how ?

Problems will not get solved by lighting candles at crossroads, they need to stared into the eye not avoided by words & fillibusters followed by business as usual.

Perusal of my previous post on various topics would coroborate the fact the I have been wanting to move on..not after Mumbai.

There cannot be a move on without acceptance. Just saying ' move on" will not solve only postpone things.
 
I dont agree with indian friends yes this is unfortunate that some of these terrorist are muslim but they are not against Non muslims and ISLAM do not allow them to do this some foreign Non muslim countries funding them to give bad name for All muslims these countries may be these

ISRAEL
AMERICA
 
I dont agree with indian friends yes this is unfortunate that some of these terrorist are muslim but they are not against Non muslims and ISLAM do not allow them to do this some foreign Non muslim countries funding them to give bad name for All muslims these countries may be these

ISRAEL
AMERICA

Too bad the original sentiment of this thread was lost when it got to here ^^^^. Perhaps Asim should re-post it. Certainly Super Falcon you don't get the sentiment expressed, dragging the US and Israel into this. Can't you ever just address the subcontinent's problem with Kashmir without dragging US into it?
 
Most terror fights are bouts of ideologies. You can't kill an ideology with a bullet. You need to show empathy. Even to the terrorists side. You don't need to bow down to their demands, but make an effort to understand.

Mr. Asim, you have courageously started this tread with reaching arm, and I do admire that. The only thing i would disagree is really trying to understand the terror fight ideology. There are problems in world, but i believe by terror it cannot be solved.
 
My small observation in this thread. Irrespective of the nationality of the perpetrators (present and past), the 2 countries have no one else but their self to blame for all the miseries that has been affecting the countries.

The common masses were having a tough time under the monarchies. After the British made a colony out of us, some sense of nationalism dawned. Did it help in alleviating the self imposed misery? No! The next evil was religion based politics, where the 2 great religion of this world, Hinduism and Islam became subjects of politicization. Countless lives were lost to this religious divide and the imperialistic boot. Add to this, the oppression of lower caste people. Somehow we muddled our way to get freedom from the British. (I am still doubtful as to whether to thank or not for this, considering the situation)

Did we begin a nation building process immediately? No. Both the countries (I might suggest brother nations, although a lot of patriotic people on both sides would turn red to see this statement) embarked on a mission to get the State of Kashmir, the loss of which would mean, loss of face and loss of pride. Pride my foot!!! Which was why the country was under foreign yolk for a good 200 years?

Ok. Now the countries have fought a war and shown each other and to the world, that we still are immature and that Freedom was granted too easily and too early. If the struggle had been harder, the value of freedom would have been easily understood by the people and the democratic gift of Voting, would not have been squandered to put inefficient people @ the helms. Archaic laws, wrote during the British Raj would not be in practice now.

Coming back to the crux of the issue, how is Pakistan a fertile ground for breeding terrorism? And how is India responsible for the same and how is it becoming such an easy target for regular attacks. Li’l introspection would open the eyes and make people realize that they are responsible for the whole menace.

When does a person, get easily swayed by speeches of religious leaders? When does money for the family and promise of heaven invite youth to embrace terrorism under the false name of Martyrdom? How is terrorism perpetrated in a country unless the security is as weak as a 10 year old gal's muscle power? How can the lapse in security be unnoticed when the entire country is unaware of what a good political system should do? Terrorism cannot happen unless there is small amount local support/help. Local help will be there only if there are sections of population which feel marginalized and oppressed. Who is responsible for this? Elections in my country are won not on the basis of good governance. It’s an open secret, that elections are won based on how populous the schemes of the politicians are. In my place, elections were won, because an idiot politician thought it wise to give people Color TV at my expense. The Tax Payer’s expense. Talking about the neighbor, why did they allow their country, whose founder was one of the greatest icons of Secularism and Democracy, to be run by the army? Why were the leaders who were elected into office, even worse and corrupted when compared to the Indian Netas? Both the countries have failed to produce a crop of successful/charismatic leaders. The countries assumed that once the British left, there was no need for a leader. This has brought the countries to the current quagmire.

Now both the countries are again facing a bigger evil/bigger boot than the imperialistic British. A faceless evil called as Terrorism. This is the best chance that both the countries have got to produce the charismatic Leader to pull them out of this oblivion. Unless the countries pull up their socks and start running without tripping each other, dawn is never going to come and we will always be in the eternal dark-before-the-dawn state
 
Moving past the blame game... i have written it again just to keep me in perspective or else while reading lot of above posts i ended up quite far off : )
Commom pakistani doesnt have a problem with a Common indian. They just tend to ride along the emotions of 1. Patriotism 2. Religious affection 3 .Out of love for their family members These few are just the soft spots of both countries exploited mercilessly by those who know their power.
Being a common pakistani i have simple dreams and life to me is much better off away from politics, war mongering and hatred. I have a thorough guess that a simple indian follows suite. Exploitation at the hands of politicians, military strategists and think tanks who claim to be seeing the Bigger picture is rampant in both countries. If killing me or many commoners like me sloves the problems of this unfortunate lot (pak+ind) i am ready to die any given day but the truth is it doesnt , rather it piles up still more horrific reasons , for my many generations to quote and seek vendetta.
Few humble advices for citizens of both countries
1. Donot believe 'every' word of what our spice hungary media and self praising text books taught us
2. If all had been good in our respective countries we wouldnt have reached to this state of affairs
3. While propoganda thrives on patriotism once in a while try consulting common sense for a change. Hint : its better to consult it away from media feeds
4. Islam and hinduism doesnt usually mean Pakistan and india
5. Try grasping the fact that fanatics are for real and mostly have least clue about their repective religions
6. Our politicians as well as Generals are thoroughly capable of lying to us and wats best they are usually good at it
7. Any one has the ingredient to become a terrorist including me it just depends when will fate deal me its most unfair hand. Couple that with a talent hunt eye and i will be IN
8. Forget about the dreams of over running each others country thinking it will solve it once n for all every issue. Therz always the next bad guy measuring you up
9. LeT , BJP , jaish, Dawood, Kashmir, RAW n ISI are real and they have kept 1.3 billion penury stricken people hostage to thier gains
10. Life exists on planet other than india n Pakistan issues
Live and Let others Live
Earth has enough space our Hearts are shrinking
 
January 20th, 2009

India, Pakistan locked in their animosities

by: Sanjeev Miglani

A few readers have pointed out an article that appeared in Pakistan’s Dawn newspaper several days ago that urges Pakistanis to begin thinking out-of the-box, stop being defensive and face up to harsh realities.

It is interesting because it stands out in the feverish, and often involved reporting that has characterised media in both India and Pakistan following the Mumbai attacks. The author, Shandana Khan Mohmand, who is a doctoral candidate at the University of Sussex, says Pakistan must really accept the reality that it is not the equal of India, a belief that he thought had stunted its development

“We cannot win a war against it, we cannot compare the instability of our political system to the stability of theirs, we cannot hope to compete economically with what is a booming economy well on its way to becoming a global economic power, and we certainly cannot compare the conservativeness of our society to the open pluralism of their everyday life,” he writes.

Pakistan’s most beneficial economic strategy would be to get in on the boom next door in India, he argues. But for this, “we need to think outside the box -outside the two-nation theory, outside the box of the violence of 1947, and outside the box of the ill-conceived wars of the last six decades.”

Strong words those, and one that apply to both nations walled off from each other nursing their animosities over the years. As political commentator M.J.Akbar wrote in the Times of India, India and Pakistan aren’t neighbours, they are worlds apart. He believes the two fully turned away from each other after the 1965 war. ”Walls of regulation were raised to block knowledge, and then vision. If you do not see a neighbour, he is not a neighbour. There are no neighbours in the huge apartment blocks of Mumbai, only adjacent numbers.”

Is it any wonder then that a popular Pakistani comedian who made thousands laugh on an Indian TV show has had to return home after being threatened in a Mumbai studio?
 
Those two articles by Shandana Khan Mohmand and MJ Akbar were truly awesome.
 
I have read all but i take an exception to calling Pakistan failed state. Can you tell me how do you figure a failed state. If by the debts it owes than U.S.A. owes more than any one else in this world.

SEE it is not acceptable for me to listen to Indians calling us a failed state when they know that is not true, countries owe money, some more some less but that should not make them a failed state, only our enemies would say so.

Read on.

U.S. & UK on brink of debt disaster: John Kemp

* Reuters, Tuesday January 20 2009

(Repeats column transmitted on Monday with no changes to text)
-- John Kemp is a Reuters columnist. The opinions expressed are his own --
By John Kemp
LONDON, Jan 19 (Reuters) - The United States and the United Kingdom stand on the brink of the largest debt crisis in history.
While both governments experiment with quantitative easing, bad banks to absorb non-performing loans, and state guarantees to restart bank lending, the only real way out is some combination of widespread corporate default, debt write-downs and inflation to reduce the burden of debt to more manageable levels. Everything else is window-dressing.
To understand the scale of the problem, and why it leaves so few options for policymakers, take a look at Chart 1 (https://customers.reuters.com/d/graphics/USDEBT1.pdf), which shows the growth in the real economy (measured by nominal GDP) and the financial sector (measured by total credit market instruments outstanding) since 1952.
In 1952, the United States was emerging from the Second World War and the conflict in Korea with a strong economy, and fairly low debt, split between a relatively large government debt (amounting to 68 percent of GDP) and a relatively small private sector one (just 60 percent of GDP).
Over the next 23 years, the volume of debt increased, but the rise was broadly in line with growth in the rest of the economy, so the overall ratio of total debts to GDP changed little, from 128 percent in 1952 to 155 percent in 1975.
The only real change was in the composition. Private debts increased (7.8 times) more rapidly than public ones (1.5 times). As a result, there was a marked shift in the debt stock from public debt (just 37 percent of GDP in 1975) towards private sector obligations (117 percent). But this was not unusual. It should be seen as a return to more normal patterns of debt issuance after the wartime period in which the government commandeered resources for the war effort and rationed borrowing by the private sector.
From the 1970s onward, however, the economy has undergone two profound structural shifts. First, the economy as a whole has become much more indebted. Output rose eight times between 1975 and 2007. But the total volume of debt rose a staggering 20 times, more than twice as fast. The total debt-to-GDP ratio surged from 155 percent to 355 percent. Second, almost all this extra debt has come from the private sector. Take a look at Chart 2 (https://customers.reuters.com/d/graphics/USDEBT2.pdf). Despite acres of newsprint devoted to the federal budget deficit over the last thirty years, public debt at all levels has risen only 11.5 times since 1975. This is slightly faster than the eight-fold increase in nominal GDP over the same period, but government debt has still only risen from 37 percent of GDP to 52 percent.
Instead, the real debt explosion has come from the private sector. Private debt outstanding has risen an enormous 22 times, three times faster than the economy as a whole, and fast enough to take the ratio of private debt to GDP from 117 percent to 303 percent in a little over thirty years.
For the most part, policymakers have been comfortable with rising private debt levels. Officials have cited a wide range of reasons why the economy can safely operate with much higher levels of debt than before, including improvements in macroeconomic management that have muted the business cycle and led to lower inflation and interest rates. But there is a suspicion that tolerance for private rather than public sector debt simply reflected an ideological preference.
THE DEBT MOUNTAIN
The data in Table 1 (https://customers.reuters.com/d/graphics/USDEBT3.pdf) makes clear the rise in private sector debt had become unsustainable. In the 1960s and 1970s, total debt was rising at roughly the same rate as nominal GDP. By 2000-2007, total debt was rising almost twice as fast as output, with the rapid issuance all coming from the private sector, as well as state and local governments.
This created a dangerous interdependence between GDP growth (which could only be sustained by massive borrowing and rapid increases in the volume of debt) and the debt stock (which could only be serviced if the economy continued its swift and uninterrupted expansion).
The resulting debt was only sustainable so long as economic conditions remained extremely favourable. The sheer volume of private-sector obligations the economy was carrying implied an increasing vulnerability to any shock that changed the terms on which financing was available, or altered the underlying GDP cash flows.
The proximate trigger of the debt crisis was the deterioration in lending standards and rise in default rates on subprime mortgage loans. But the widening divergence revealed in the charts suggests a crisis had become inevitable sooner or later. If not subprime lending, there would have been some other trigger.
WRONGHEADED POLICIES
The charts strongly suggest the necessary condition for resolving the debt crisis is a reduction in the outstanding volume of debt, an increase in nominal GDP, or some combination of the two, to reduce the debt-to-GDP ratio to a more sustainable level.
From this perspective, it is clear many of the existing policies being pursued in the United States and the United Kingdom will not resolve the crisis because they do not lower the debt ratio.
In particular, having governments buy distressed assets from the banks, or provide loan guarantees, is not an effective solution. It does not reduce the volume of debt, or force recognition of losses. It merely re-denominates private sector obligations to be met by households and firms as public ones to be met by the taxpayer.
This type of debt swap would make sense if the problem was liquidity rather than solvency. But in current circumstances, taxpayers are being asked to shoulder some or all of the cost of defaults, rather than provide a temporarily liquidity bridge.
In some ways, government is better placed to absorb losses than individual banks and investors, because it can spread them across a larger base of taxpayers. But in the current crisis, the volume of debts that potentially need to be refinanced is so large it will stretch even the tax and debt-raising resources of the state, and risks crowding out other spending.
Trying to cut debt by reducing consumption and investment, lowering wages, boosting saving and paying down debt out of current income is unlikely to be effective either. The resulting retrenchment would lead to sharp falls in both real output and the price level, depressing nominal GDP. Government retrenchment simply intensified the depression during the early 1930s. Private sector retrenchment and wage cuts will do the same in the 2000s.
BANKRUPTCY OR INFLATION
The solution must be some combination of policies to reduce the level of debt or raise nominal GDP. The simplest way to reduce debt is through bankruptcy, in which some or all of debts are deemed unrecoverable and are simply extinguished, ceasing to exist.
Bankruptcy would ensure the cost of resolving the debt crisis falls where it belongs. Investor portfolios and pension funds would take a severe but one-time hit. Healthy businesses would survive, minus the encumbrance of debt.
But widespread bankruptcies are probably socially and politically unacceptable. The alternative is some mechanism for refinancing debt on terms which are more favourable to borrowers (replacing short term debt at higher rates with longer-dated paper at lower ones).
The final option is to raise nominal GDP so it becomes easier to finance debt payments from augmented cashflow. But counter-cyclical policies to sustain GDP will not be enough. Governments in both the United States and the United Kingdom need to raise nominal GDP and debt-service capacity, not simply sustain it.
There is not much government can do to accelerate the real rate of growth. The remaining option is to tolerate, even encourage, a faster rate of inflation to improve debt-service capacity. Even more than debt nationalisation, inflation is the ultimate way to spread the costs of debt workout across the widest possible section of the population.
The need to work down real debt and boost cash flow provides the motive, while the massive liquidity injections into the financial system provide the means. The stage is set for a long period of slow growth as debts are worked down and a rise in inflation in the medium term.
 
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“We cannot win a war against it, we cannot compare the instability of our political system to the stability of theirs, we cannot hope to compete economically with what is a booming economy well on its way to becoming a global economic power, and we certainly cannot compare the conservativeness of our society to the open pluralism of their everyday life,” he writes.

All true, though his first point arguably applies to India as well. However none of that, in any context or situation, justifies bowing down to belligerence and unreasonable demands.

Given that the GoP has shown tremendous flexibility in its approach towards India, choosing to continuously push a diplomatic message of cooperation and assurances of action based on available evidence, I imagine the target of the author is not the GoP (indeed should not be the GoP) but those hardliners (such as the MMA) who are critical of the cooperative and diplomatic approach taken by the GoP.

If the author's commentary was directed at the GoP, after all the flexibility and cooperation it has shown, then he is suggesting nothing more than cowing down in the face of arrogance and bullying - an unacceptable, unjustifiable and flawed argument.

Pakistan may not be able to compare herself to India economically or politically, but that is no reason for surrendering her sovereignty, accepting injustice and cowing down to blatant aggression.

"Taali aek haath say nahin bajti" goes the saying - and that applies in the Indo-Pak context as well. Arguing for unilateral concessions from Pakistan is not doing Pakistan any favors, nor is it going to result in some sort of 'pay off from India' as the author seems to imply. India has to join the party, cooperate, compromise and show flexibility on a host of issues as well, before the tide in South Asian is turned, and they have shown no sign of doing that under either the current dynamic, or under this hypothetical 'satellite state' relationship suggested by the Author.

In fact, if India is incapable of cooperating with Pakistan unless it is within the 'satellite state' dynamic, then that is a clear indication that India is not interested in either accepting Pakistan or entering into a relationship based on mutual respect and interests, and therefore deserves not one single concession from Pakistan.
 
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It is about time that Indians are making some sense as they read Asim's post, the trouble is that every time i read a good post by an Indian he still ends with an insult. like the post by third eye in the last paragraph he makes all Pakistanis responsible for the acts of few, if they are proved to be the guilty ones as the DNA is tested.

See the following and see for yourselves how obnoxious it is.

VHP extremists from India

there are unlimited videos on this site spewing poison against Muslims in India and against Pakistan.
 
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You should also consider the fact that not many listen to them. Only those uneducated and especially rural people fall into their nets.

Generations to come will be even better.
 

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