India, Pakistan held secret talks to try to break Kashmir impasse

[Zapper]

India can keep the blue part
Green and orange / yellow goes to Pakistan

Y'all can keep AJK and GB will go to India

 

[IceCold]

get its economy in shape rather

Oh! our economy is getting better as are our reserves and India plays no part in it. In fact we dont even have to deal with you lot. The amount of trade that was happening between India and Pakistan was actually favoring India. So thanks but no thanks.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Drastic surge in religious, regional and even caste communalism in Modi's India will ultimately help us achieve our desired outcome, in Kashmir and elsewhere. No need for negotiations at this point in time. J&K hasn't become India in 7 decades, it won't in another few

 

[Ghost Hobbit]

Grandeur delusion had you shattered that day. I'm surprised some of you lot even have the nerve to talk the way you do after what happened.
The bottom line is that Pakistan did escalate quickly and you sat back not wanting it. Pakistan's military is also modernising at a quick pace.

if we come in force, you will lose. You mean nothing to us.

 

[VkdIndian]

Grandeur delusion had you shattered that day. I'm surprised some of you lot even have the nerve to talk the way you do after what happened.

There is no delusion here. Retaliation by Pakistan was expected. Yes, shooting down of Abhinandan may have helped in de-escalation. Next time it could be a completely different story. It could go both ways.

Bottom line remains that India wouldn’t hesitate to strike again if an act of transgression is repeated. Pakistan has to decide if it is ready to take on that risk and the cost involved.

Do you see the shift in Indian approach?

Even during Kargil when Pakistan had clearly done an act of blatant intrusion, Indian Air Force was asked not to cross the LOC. And now India is ready to strike deep inside Pakistan.

And once again, there is no delusion here about the escalation. If escalation is what it takes to teach Pakistan a lesson then escalation it would be.

Pakistan's military is also modernising at a quick pace.

Modernisation of Pakistan’s military is no where close to what India has undertaken.

Oh! our economy is getting better as are our reserves and India plays no part in it. In fact we dont even have to deal with you lot. The amount of trade that was happening between India and Pakistan was actually favoring India. So thanks but no thanks.

If it is happening then it is good for you.
Imagine where it could go if there is de-escalation with India.

Don’t want to trade with India? Don’t do it. But full fledged trade could open the gates for benefit of even Pakistan. I am sure there are economists in Pakistan who can work it out in favour of Pakistan.

The fact that there are secret talks indicates that there is some benefit that your government also sees in peace with India.

Tell your government to stop it, if you are really unhappy.

 

[GHALIB]

India, Pakistan held secret talks to try to break Kashmir impasse
By Sanjeev Miglani, Asif Shahzad
5 Min Read

NEW DELHI (Reuters) -Top intelligence officers from India and Pakistan held secret talks in Dubai in January in a new effort to calm military tension over the disputed Himalayan region of Kashmir, people with close knowledge of the matter told Reuters in Delhi.


FILE PHOTO: Pakistani Rangers (wearing black uniforms) and Indian Border Security Force (BSF) officers lower their national flags during parade on the Pakistan's 72nd Independence Day, at the Pakistan-India joint check-post at Wagah border, near Lahore, Pakistan August 14, 2019. REUTERS/Mohsin Raza
Ties between the nuclear-armed rivals have been on ice since a suicide bombing of an Indian military convoy in Kashmir in 2019 traced to Pakistan-based militants that led to India sending warplanes to Pakistan.

Later that year, Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi withdrew Indian-ruled Kashmir’s autonomy in order to tighten his grip over the territory, provoking outrage in Pakistan and the downgrading of diplomatic ties and suspension of bilateral trade.

But the two governments have re-opened a back channel of diplomacy aimed at a modest roadmap to normalising ties over the next several months, the people said.

Kashmir has long been a flashpoint between India and Pakistan, both of which claim all of the region but rule only in part.

Officials from India’s Research and Analysis Wing, the external spy agency, and Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence travelled to Dubai for a meeting facilitated by the United Arab Emirates government, two people said.

The Indian foreign ministry did not respond to a request for comment. Pakistan’s military, which controls the ISI, also did not respond.


But Ayesha Siddiqa, a top Pakistani defence analyst, said she believed Indian and Pakistan intelligence officials had been meeting for several months in third countries.

“I think there have been meetings in Thailand, in Dubai, in London between the highest level people,” she said.

‘IT IS FRAUGHT’

Such meetings have taken place in the past too, especially during times of crises but never been publicly acknowledged.

“There is a lot that can still go wrong, it is fraught,” said one of the people in Delhi. “That is why nobody is talking it up in public, we don’t even have a name for this, it’s not a peace process. You can call it a re-engagement,” one of them said.

Both countries have reasons to seek a rapprochement. India has been locked in a border stand-off with China since last year and does not want the military stretched on the Pakistan front.


China-ally Pakistan, mired in economic difficulties and on an IMF bailout programme, can ill-afford heightened tensions on the Kashmir border for a prolonged period, experts say. It also has to stabilise the Afghan border on its west as the United States withdraws.

“It’s better for India and Pakistan to talk than not talk, and even better that it should be done quietly than in a glare of publicity,” said Myra MacDonald, a former Reuters journalist who has just published a book on India, Pakistan and war on the frontiers of Kashmir.

“...But I don’t see it going very far beyond a basic management of tensions, possibly to tide both countries over a difficult period - Pakistan needs to address the fall-out of the U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan, while India has to confront a far more volatile situation on its disputed frontier with China.”

DIALLING DOWN THE RHETORIC
Following the January meeting, India and Pakistan announced they would stop cross-border shooting along the Line of Control (LoC) dividing Kashmir which has left dozens of civilians dead and many others maimed. That ceasefire is holding, military officials in both countries said.

Both sides have also signalled plans to hold elections on their sides of Kashmir this year as part of efforts to bring normalcy to a region riven by decades of bloodshed.


The two have also agreed to dial down their rhetoric, the people Reuters spoke to said.

This would include Pakistan dropping its loud objections to Modi abrogating Kashmir’s autonomy in August 2019, while Delhi in turn would refrain from blaming Pakistan for all violence on its side of the Line of Control.

These details have not been previously reported. India has long blamed Pakistan for the revolt in Kashmir, an allegation denied by Pakistan.

“There is a recognition there will be attacks inside Kashmir, there has been discussions as to how to deal with it and not let this effort derailed by the next attack,” one of the people said.

There is as yet, however, no grand plan to resolve the 74-year-old Kashmir dispute. Rather both sides are trying to reduce tensions to pave the way for a broad engagement, all the people Reuters spoke to said.

“Pakistan is transiting from a geo-strategic domain to a geo-economic domain,” Raoof Hasan, special assistant to Pakistani Prime Minister Imran Khan, told Reuters.

“Peace, both within and around with its neighbours, is a key constituent to facilitate that.”

that is only way out .

 

[waz]

if we come in force, you will lose. You mean nothing to us.

You did and then lost. Your ever so tough words won’t change that, nor do they scare us.

 

[waz]

There is no delusion here. Retaliation by Pakistan was expected. Yes, shooting down of Abhinandan may have helped in de-escalation. Next time it could be a completely different story. It could go both ways.

Bottom line remains that India wouldn’t hesitate to strike again if an act of transgression is repeated. Pakistan has to decide if it is ready to take on that risk and the cost involved.

Do you see the shift in Indian approach?

Even during Kargil when Pakistan had clearly done an act of blatant intrusion, Indian Air Force was asked not to cross the LOC. And now India is ready to strike deep inside Pakistan.

And once again, there is no delusion here about the escalation. If escalation is what it takes to teach Pakistan a lesson then escalation it would be.

Nope it wasn't expected. The Indian military and leadership banked on the idea that it could scare Pakistan with a strike into the nation. The resulting fallout took them by surprise, the sheer panic of your air surveillance operators is just one example.
There was no transgression and you blamed an act of insurgency (which you've inflamed yourselves ) on Pakistan, and decided to move.
The next time IF you decide to move you will be met with a response far greater than you would have factored in, and it will be escalated again, escalation which you are clearly not prepared to take up. Hence your stood down even after your pilot had been taken captive, and after you lost senior personal when your own defences shot them down.
If you want peace to have a chance that's great, if not then its fine either way.

Modernisation of Pakistan’s military is no where close to what India has undertaken.

You need to see the development pages for each branch of the military.

 

[Ghost Hobbit]

You did and then lost. Your ever so tough words won’t change that, nor do they scare us.

if we come in force, you will lose. And all wings of PA are scared of us. Even now we have won. We have removed the Kashmir issue from the table as punishment to Imran Khan and the PAF.

 

[waz]

if we come in force, you will lose. And all wings of PA are scared of us. Even now we have won. We have removed the Kashmir issue from the table as punishment to Imran Khan and the PAF.

You had a chance and got beaten convincingly. What do you mean all wings, you don't even make sense. No one is scared of you.
Removed Kashmir, on the contrary it's still there.
You have nothing to add but rubbish on here, and you sound like a broken record, "you are scared", " we come in force you will lose".
Thread ban.

 

[GHALIB]

Drastic surge in religious, regional and even caste communalism in Modi's India will ultimately help us achieve our desired outcome, in Kashmir and elsewhere. No need for negotiations at this point in time. J&K hasn't become India in 7 decades, it won't in another few

day dreaming is not good , wake up and see the writing on wall , kashmir case is closed now .

 

[VkdIndian]

Nope it wasn't expected. The Indian military and leadership banked on the idea that it could scare Pakistan with a strike into the nation.

It has come down to your opinion vs my opinion.
Why would Indian Military Leadership not expect a retaliation from a security state like Pakistan. I have quoted Kargil case in my previous post. Why were Indian forces asked not to cross the LOC then? Because it expected a response that could escalate the situation? What has changed since then? Infact PAF has acquired BVRs since then and has gained an edge in first shooter advantage.
It is just a presumption on Pakistani side to feel happy about the retaliatory strike.

The next time IF you decide to move you will be met with a response far greater than you would have factored in, and it will be escalated again, escalation which you are clearly not prepared to take up.

Next time IF Pakistan does a transgression it would be treated exactly like the previous one. As I said earlier India has decided that if escalation is what Pakistan wants then it would be given one.

Hence your stood down even after your pilot had been taken captive

After the pilot was shot down he was returned in a tearing hurry by Pakistan. What prompted that hurry has many versions and stories which I wouldn’t like to touch upon here.

You need to see the development pages for each branch of the military.

I am sure Pakistan is doing it. One big factor here is the means available in terms of money and other resources. India is far ahead in this regard. Previous governments sat idle as the Defence Forces kept requesting to induct new equipment.
Not the case anymore. Look at big ticket inductions in terms of aircraft, AD systems and force multipliers being inducted in good numbers. Some deficiencies in BVRs, SDRs and similar aspects have been already addressed.

Any interference by pushing men and material to cross from a Pakistan to India would be met with a similar or a bigger response from India.

Yes. Peace has a good chance here only and ONLY if Pakistan wants to give it a chance.

 

[waz]

It has come down to your opinion vs my opinion.
Why would Indian Military Leadership not expect a retaliation from a security state like Pakistan. I have quoted Kargil case in my previous post. Why were Indian forces asked not to cross the LOC then? Because it expected a response that could escalate the situation? What has changed since then? Infact PAF has acquired BVRs since then and has gained an edge in first shooter advantage.
It is just a presumption on Pakistani side to feel happy about the retaliatory strike.


Next time IF Pakistan does a transgression it would be treated exactly like the previous one. As I said earlier India has decided that if escalation is what Pakistan wants then it would be given one.



After the pilot was shot down he was returned in a tearing hurry by Pakistan. What prompted that hurry has many versions and stories which I wouldn’t like to touch upon here.

I am sure Pakistan is doing it. One big factor here is the means available in terms of money and other resources. India is far ahead in this regard. Previous governments sat idle as the Defence Forces kept requesting to induct new equipment.
Not the case anymore. Look at big ticket inductions in terms of aircraft, AD systems and force multipliers being inducted in good numbers. Some deficiencies in BVRs, SDRs and similar aspects have been already addressed.

Any interference by pushing men and material to cross from a Pakistan to India would be met with a similar or a bigger response from India.

Yes. Peace has a good chance here only and ONLY if Pakistan wants to give it a chance.

You literally just repeated yourself again.
The new part about how “quickly” your pilot was returned being indicative about how Pakistan was scared about an Indian response, is just you guys trying to see a silver lining in the conventional defeat you suffered. The fact he was paraded on National TV for the world to see just goes to show no one cared for your “response”. He was returned as per the Geneva Convention. If you see that as a victory then so be it.
I haven’t got time to list all Pakistan’s modernisation, as I stated before you can follow the threads.
Regarding peace it was India who struck first, Pakistan just finished it.
Let’s see what happens now with these new talks.

 

[Arsalan345]

Pakistan shouldn't sacrifice. Pakistan should stay away from India. This is a trap. Arab states are building pressure on Pakistan to accept Indian terms. Pakistan is also interested which is bad. i am not feeling well about all this secret talks. Let me tell you one thing clearly! even the solution of Kashmir will not stop Indian aggression. Another bomb blast, same blame game again. same abhinandan etc. i have never seen Pakistan so defensive before.

 

[VkdIndian]

You literally just repeated yourself again.

I elaborated on certain aspects that you disagreed with.

The new part about how “quickly” your pilot was returned being indicative about how Pakistan was scared about an Indian response, is just you guys trying to see a silver lining in the conventional defeat you suffered.

We wouldn’t have known the extent of capitulation if one of the Pakistan’s senator hadn’t brought out the details of the meeting where the release of the Indian pilot was decided. So, yes it did sound good to us and the terror it created in the minds of Pak government?

Conventional defeat? Was there a conventional war to start with? If it gives satisfaction to anyone to start calling that a conventional (anything) then please go ahead.

Regarding peace it was India who struck first, Pakistan just finished it.

For India it was a new start. A start where it made clear its intentions of what it would do with so called support to insurgency in Kashmir. Now onwards moral support only. No men and material. We all know that Pakistan didn’t finish anything. You will call it a repeat comment from me but the fact remains that India did expect retaliation. I have explained the reason in my previous post. A retaliation in which PAF dropped bombs in open fields. Is that what one calls a finish?

I haven’t got time to list all Pakistan’s modernisation, as I stated before you can follow the threads.

Agreed that Pakistan is also undertaking modernisation. Is it at the same scale as a India?

Let’s see what happens now with these new talks.

Talks have already resulted in cease fire on the LOC. I am sure there are bigger things being worked out. Good for both the countries.

PS- The skirmish has been discussed threadbare in various threads and posts. I have conveyed what I had to say on the subject. I disagree with the line of thought of green flags on declaring a victory for Pakistan. Hence no point in a slugfest on that one on this thread.
My last reply to @waz on the subject.