India Pakistan-Confronting Realities: Opinion

[Speaker]

Ok let me get this straight, are you denying the fact that India on numerous occasions threaten Pakistan with surgical strikes, even violated our airspace? Do you also deny that your country recently threaten war not just against Pakistan but also China?
And for the last part, India made every diplomatic move that it could to declare Pakistan a terrorist state, why do you think India went to the UN in the first place, just to declare JUD a terrorist organisation? That would be an understatement.

There will always be talks of surgical strikes as long as there are attacks on India. Like someone else mentioned, what if 26/11 had happened in Pakistan done by Indian citizens? Would your leaders have had the sense and maturity to deal with it? I was worried back then that India might declare a full-scale war, but was happy that we instead tried to set our house in order (changing the home minister, beefing up internal security). Doesn't America get touchy when there is a simple "threat" of terror? Are your leaders not complicit in allowing drone attacks on your sovereign territory? And focussing on their war-on-terror at the cost of development? Considering India faced an actual attack, don't your leaders have to at least prosecute the conspirators of the attack? I know America is much stronger and will have its way anyway, but should that not be all the only reason for action on terrorists? Btw, India would not be immature enough to talk of declaring war on China. Assuming India and Pakistan have a confrontation, it is just to prepare for the unlikely eventuality that China would support Pakistan militarily. That is a complicated topic and not in scope here. Having said all this, I do agree that Deepak Kapoor should learn to keep his mouth shut, as should Kayani.

And yes, India does want the JuD to be labelled a terrorist organization. They may be involved in charitable work inside Pakistan, but that cannot be a cover for targeting innocents. The reason America, UK and Israel are anti-JuD is because their citizens were harmed on 26/11 as well. And contrary to what you say, no one in a position of significance wants Pakistan to be declared a terrorist state. But you might want to concentrate on the western media which refers to Pakistan as the epicenter of terrorism and other such uncharitable references. And they are not Indian correspondents.

 

[deckingraj]

Again partially incorrect. Pakistan has no boundary related issue with USA nor they are neighbours as in case of India. USA has its interests where army/intelligence plays a far bigger role comparatively. Therefore they talked. It might be as there is some secret channel between Indian and Pakistani intelligence as well. (I know far fetched but not impossible though). However India can not admit to talk to any army.

Partially incorrect...every one knows who has the real power in Pakistan...if you don't talk to them there is no way you can reach a solution...Now you talk to them covertly or in full public glaze its just semantics..but truth is you got to talk to Army/ISI and only with their blessings GOP can do anything about Kashmir and other problems with India...

Read this - ISI chief to India: talk to us, we make policy too - TH-Delhi

How Pakistan is governed, this is none of India's business. Only thing we need to care about our interest (trade, security etc.) and we are done. IMO India is doing a good job as such. All institutions are getting strength.

I partially agree...As far as Pakistan internal politics is not affecting our interests we have nothing to be bothered about...But you got to understand the significance of Kashmir in Pakistan politics...All the major coups that has taken place is Pakistan's history is directly/indirectly related to hatred agaisnt india and Pakistan's resolve to get Kashmir...In other words whenever you want to take public pressure/focus away from your own wrong doings just start the kashmir rhetoric...

A person who was talking about peace, no first use policy and what not suddenly said this Ready for ?1,000-year war? with India: Zardari....

As far as Institutions are getting strength than yes we are moving in that direction however our Home minister has said on record that more terror strikes are not happening partly because of our ability and partly that militants are busy otherwise....

I agree with the part that it is highly unlikely that anyone else would interfere overtly between India and Pakistan. Everyone has some interest with India.

Agreed...

 

[deckingraj]

If you ask me, USA has to learn diplomacy from us. USA is a powerful but hated. It tries to force the things. The ones who agreed even, remains suspicious to its intention.

Not sure if i agree here...when i was a kid my father always used to say that we have won all the wars with pakistan but lost everything on the table...I know similar stories are being told in pakistan as well...Anyways we have got to learn a lot when it comes to diplomacy...Cold war was won by Americans without firing a single bullet...We still have to claim any significant victory by sheer diplomacy...We have our share of mistakes and good work in diplomacy and Yankees have theirs...Though the true test of diplomacy comes when it comes to resolving crisis situation...Cuba Missile crisis was one such example for yankees...for us it was Kargil, Parliament attack, 26/11...

As far as hate is concerned the one who has the might is always hated across...They have the might so they force things around...If we had that capacity we would have forced Pakistan to submission by now....1971 war was one such example when we could have gone for the offensive in west pakistan but did not choose to..reasons are pretty obvious...

Apart from Kashmir, there are other internal issues for noth India and Pakistan. The thread is not about Kashmir.
USA has far more interest with India. Whether it is recently developed defense ties or trump card economic issues.

Agreed....

 

[deckingraj]

Blah blah blah....................................anything else?? seriously you wana debate how about keep the indian nonsense aside for a moment.

Sure why not...however would you mind reciprocating in the same manner???

Last time we checked it was India that is threatning both China and Pakistan with war and not the other way round so dont get me started on that.
I dont know which planet you are living on but time for you to come back to earth.

Then you checked it wrong...Surely you don't seem to be the one who lives on some other planet then how come you are not informed...or am i wrong in asserting that????.. India never threatened China and Pakistan for a two front war...If you can, do back up your claim with some neutral sources...Also while sharing any such source do read what Mr. deepak Kapoor said and how you are interpreting it....

Does not impress me, we have heard this rhetotic before as well.

I know...Rhetorics are something that we Indians and Pakistanis are masters in sharing.... India threatning both Pak and China is one such in the long lists that we have....So chill and have some

 

[HAWK73]

In y some previous postes some Indian friends told me that "Do you remember 1971"

Well, I know that you Indians asking it with very proud. Because what happened in 1971 was what already were decided before 1971. But it has been now since 39 year ago when that happened. Today is 2010 even I also know that during former president of Pakistan Gen.ZIa-ul-Haq in 80`s India already tried its best to destroy Pakistan and even its Nu-Clear assets with the support of Israel. But they failed to get success into their this poor mission.

Once I got an Indian friend here in Norway during my college time in 1995. He was a good person who invited me in his home and we talked a lot about Pakistan & India. He was totally agree with me about 800.000 Indian Army terror on Innocent Kashmiri people since 1980`s. So he accepted that major problems that we Pakistan and India have is Kashmir and so on. . . .

Now why Pakistani channels are banned in India?
In Pakistan you have lots of Indian channels even via cabel along with satellite.

Here I have some Indian channels where always propaganda against Pakistan what these channels are fully busy to show Indians those are satellited here in UK & Europe.

Therefore I say, that major problem between Pakistan in India is also (Huge Indian Media) along with CORE issue of Kashmir.

 

[IceCold]

Sure why not...however would you mind reciprocating in the same manner???

Was my post in response to you?? certainly not but then again after all an Indian to the rescue....right
Anyways check my initial post and see how was the reply of avatar relevant to what i wrote.

Then you checked it wrong...Surely you don't seem to be the one who lives on some other planet then how come you are not informed...or am i wrong in asserting that????.. India never threatened China and Pakistan for a two front war...If you can, do back up your claim with some neutral sources...Also while sharing any such source do read what Mr. deepak Kapoor said and how you are interpreting it....

Have I? You rather just over simplified things here. At first Indians called it a scenario being discussed, now rejected it all together, why is it not surprising

Statements and reactions dont just spark out of the thin air unless you believe otherwise.

Indian army chief’s statement on two-front war jingoistic: Pakistan

The topic has been discussed here as well:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/42955-general-deepak-kapoor-has-big-mouth.html

BY the way ever heard any Pakistani genernal making such statements that would stir up such heat in an already hostile environment?

I know...Rhetorics are something that we Indians and Pakistanis are masters in sharing.... India threatning both Pak and China is one such in the long lists that we have....So chill and have some

I disagree because the level of rhetoric we hear from Indians and almost on daily basis, be it the oridinary Indian arms chair general or perhaps Kapoor, we Pakistanis dont even come close.

 

[IceCold]

There will always be talks of surgical strikes as long as there are attacks on India. Like someone else mentioned, what if 26/11 had happened in Pakistan done by Indian citizens? Would your leaders have had the sense and maturity to deal with it? I was worried back then that India might declare a full-scale war, but was happy that we instead tried to set our house in order (changing the home minister, beefing up internal security). Doesn't America get touchy when there is a simple "threat" of terror? Are your leaders not complicit in allowing drone attacks on your sovereign territory? And focussing on their war-on-terror at the cost of development? Considering India faced an actual attack, don't your leaders have to at least prosecute the conspirators of the attack? I know America is much stronger and will have its way anyway, but should that not be all the only reason for action on terrorists? Btw, India would not be immature enough to talk of declaring war on China. Assuming India and Pakistan have a confrontation, it is just to prepare for the unlikely eventuality that China would support Pakistan militarily. That is a complicated topic and not in scope here. Having said all this, I do agree that Deepak Kapoor should learn to keep his mouth shut, as should Kayani.

And yes, India does want the JuD to be labelled a terrorist organization. They may be involved in charitable work inside Pakistan, but that cannot be a cover for targeting innocents. The reason America, UK and Israel are anti-JuD is because their citizens were harmed on 26/11 as well. And contrary to what you say, no one in a position of significance wants Pakistan to be declared a terrorist state.

So you do agree there are talks of surgical strikes, atleast its a start because some of your countrymen reject it all together. By the way you just answered my question beacuse even if we take you words at face value, i am sure you can understand why even talks of surgical strikes or when Pranab Mukherjee says all options are open, we cannot take them lightly.

But you might want to concentrate on the western media which refers to Pakistan as the epicenter of terrorism and other such uncharitable references. And they are not Indian correspondents.

I am just concentrating on one thing India wanted Pakistan to be declared a terrorist state.India has also on numerous occasions tried to declare Pakistan a failed state. But for now lets keep the debate to being declared a terrorist state. Here is a link that would help clear mind:

India wants Pakistan declared terror state - NaiTazi.com

Pakistan Observer - Newspaper online edition - Article

 

[blueoval79]

Ok let me get this straight, are you denying the fact that India on numerous occasions threaten Pakistan with surgical strikes, even violated our airspace? Do you also deny that your country recently threaten war not just against Pakistan but also China?

Can you post the news items where India has threated....Keeping options open is always in news....and India has to keep options open..just like Pakistan keeps options open of a nuclear war.

Ok...show me a news item that says India will attack China and Pakistan........most probably you will find a news item that says India will defend in a two front war scenario.

And for the last part, India made every diplomatic move that it could to declare Pakistan a terrorist state, why do you think India went to the UN in the first place, just to declare JUD a terrorist organisation? That would be an understatement.

If you think Banning JUD has indirectly implicated Pakistan ..then its your way of understanding things....... And itf JUD is more important to Pakistan than its own identity...its a call Pakistan has to take.

 

[deckingraj]

Was my post in response to you?? certainly not but then again after all an Indian to the rescue....right

Does it matter to whom you replied?? This is a public forum and i saw something where i thought i can share my opinion...so nothing like rescue...

Anyways check my initial post and see how was the reply of avatar relevant to what i wrote.

I did and that's why shared my opinion...You are more than welcome to trash it...

Have I? You rather just over simplified things here. At first Indians called it a scenario being discussed, now rejected it all together, why is it not surprising

Yes you have....Since you have already shared a link on PDF where this issue has been discussed to death yet let me show you the fact on a high level...Still you disagree then atleast agree to not go off topic here..Fair???

Statements and reactions dont just spark out of the thin air unless you believe otherwise.

That was really funny...Honestly thats the tragedy of Indo-Pak relations...Here statement and reactions do spark out of thin air...and your claim on China and Pak being threatened by India is one such example...

Indian army chief’s statement on two-front war jingoistic: Pakistan

All you have shared with me is how Pakistan interpreted his statement...Nothing like what he said and in response to what...Let me show you another link..Something you might be proud of...

The Hindu : News / International : Pakistan tests missiles in Arabian Sea

Here is one of the interesting expert..

Friday’s launches were followed by a navy statement saying: “These successful tests are a clear message to forces having nefarious designs.”

Tell me in your honest opinion Would you consider it as threat to someone(read India) or a power statement showing don't mess with us...we have enough muscle to make you regret????


If this is not threat then how come General Kapoor answer to a question posed by a generalist wheather india forces are capable of defending mother india if a two front war is imposed on her is a threat??? what answer you expect our General to give??? Should he say no we will buckle and run away at the first given chance??? All he said is that we are capable of DEFENDING India and taking war to enemy house....

The topic has been discussed here as well:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/42955-general-deepak-kapoor-has-big-mouth.html

I know ...thanks for sharing the link...Been on PDF for quite some time now...so have gone through most of these threads...

BY the way ever heard any Pakistani genernal making such statements that would stir up such heat in an already hostile environment?

Well for now let me share this....Mr. Zardari promises nation 1000 year war to liberate Kashmir Rupee News

So please don't give me this crap and face the reality...Both the nations have their shares of idiotic statements....Though Mr. Kapoor statement has been read out of context and have got unnecessaty attention..Thanks to media...Also did you notice that perhaps there was not much burrah in China about his statement...these kind of childish accusations happen in Pakistan and India only

I disagree because the level of rhetoric we hear from Indians and almost on daily basis, be it the oridinary Indian arms chair general or perhaps Kapoor, we Pakistanis dont even come close.

No dude you are wrong...Actually we all suffer from My Nation angel and yours an evil thingi...Rhetorics are everywhere....Can you deny any attack in india is assumed to be the hand of ISI and RAW for pakistan....even though no thorough investigation has taken place...heck factions in Pakistan accused India of attack on Sri Lankan team....So come down from this high horse of morality and who is more rhetoric because the fact is we both are equally responsible for the mess....

 

[IceCold]

Does it matter to whom you replied?? This is a public forum and i saw something where i thought i can share my opinion...so nothing like rescue...

I did and that's why shared my opinion...You are more than welcome to trash it...

Fair enough.

Yes you have....Since you have already shared a link on PDF where this issue has been discussed to death yet let me show you the fact on a high level...Still you disagree then atleast agree to not go off topic here..Fair???

My original post was not offtopic when i made a comment on Mr Singh not being serious for peace as against to the authors notion basing my argument on the level of threats that we got specially after 26/11.
Understand it is only natural for a smaller neighbor to be vary of such actions, even if they are discussed on the table.

That was really funny...Honestly thats the tragedy of Indo-Pak relations...Here statement and reactions do spark out of thin air...and your claim on China and Pak being threatened by India is one such example...

What was so funny, i didnt catch the drift here.

All you have shared with me is how Pakistan interpreted his statement...Nothing like what he said and in response to what...

Like i mentioned above, statements and counter statements dont just pop out of the thin air, i still believe into it, specially in the context of a smaller nation. You are welcome to disagree.

Let me show you another link..Something you might be proud of...

The Hindu : News / International : Pakistan tests missiles in Arabian Sea

Here is one of the interesting expert..



Tell me in your honest opinion Would you consider it as threat to someone(read India) or a power statement showing don't mess with us...we have enough muscle to make you regret????

How is it exactly related to what we are discussing, now your argument is becoming that of a strawman.
Anyways since you posted the news, did Pakistan specifically mentioned India? The answer is no where as the recent Indian military excerise vayu shakti specifically mentioned Pakistan.Here is a video; i am sure you already have seen it as you are here for quite some time, still to fresh ones memory:

If this is not threat then how come General Kapoor answer to a question posed by a generalist wheather india forces are capable of defending mother india if a two front war is imposed on her is a threat??? what answer you expect our General to give??? Should he say no we will buckle and run away at the first given chance??? All he said is that we are capable of DEFENDING India and taking war to enemy house....

Again Kapoor specifically mentioned Pakistan and like i said before it is only natural for a smaller neighbor to be vary of such statements. We cant just sit and pray that Kapoor did not meant that or his statement was presented out of the context by their own media.

Well for now let me share this....Mr. Zardari promises nation 1000 year war to liberate Kashmir Rupee News

Ruppee news? seriously, i dont need to say anything more.

So please don't give me this crap and face the reality...Both the nations have their shares of idiotic statements....Though Mr. Kapoor statement has been read out of context and have got unnecessaty attention..Thanks to media...Also did you notice that perhaps there was not much burrah in China about his statement...these kind of childish accusations happen in Pakistan and India only

There was a reaction in China however understandbly not to that extent as in Pakistan because China as compared to Pakistan is a much bigger neighbor(bigger means stronger) even to India while on the other hand Pakistan naturally has to be vary because the threat is posed by a bigger neighbor some one we have fought 4 wars. With China India only had a border conflict. So you cannot compare apples with oranges here.

 

[IceCold]

Can you post the news items where India has threated....Keeping options open is always in news....and India has to keep options open..just like Pakistan keeps options open of a nuclear war.

Ok forget about the past, what about this?

India to act decisively if another attack happens: Chidambaram - GEO.tv

 

[IceCold]

Deckingraj you too can reply to the above mentioned link i provided since blue oval seems to be banned.

 

[deckingraj]

Fair enough.

Kewl then...let me chip in...

My original post was not offtopic when i made a comment on Mr Singh not being serious for peace as against to the authors notion basing my argument on the level of threats that we got specially after 26/11.

Trust me he is one of the few person in Indian establishment who still have not lost hope that we will have peace with Pakistan...Haven't you seen his statesmenship in Sharma-e-Sheikh declaration...DO you know the kind of criticism he had to face therafter in India...He was accused of selling India and let Baluchistan appear in JS for the first time...for which we are still awaiting proofs...

This is not a joke buddy:
Manmohan Singh to get World Statesman 2010 award - Oneindia News

Understand it is only natural for a smaller neighbor to be vary of such actions, even if they are discussed on the table.

Fair comment..However reading things out of context and then reacting won't help irrespective of size of the neighbour...

What was so funny, i didnt catch the drift here.

Sorry...did not mean to offend...What's funny is that your statement about thin air doesn't hold true when it comes to India-Pak....

Like i mentioned above, statements and counter statements dont just pop out of the thin air, i still believe into it, specially in the context of a smaller nation. You are welcome to disagree.

Sorry bro..i disagree...The kind of propaganda we see in our respective media complemented by the distrust that we have for each other this statement don't hold ground...

How is it exactly related to what we are discussing, now your argument is becoming that of a strawman.

Let me clarify...What i mean to say is that power projection is the way to show your adversary that look we are capable of making life difficult for you should you choose any misadventure....When PN warned nefarious elements tell me whom are they refering too??? Do we need to ponder our brain on this??? What i was asking you is should this statement be taken as a threat to India??? Hell no way..it would be stupid to think of that...Likewise General Kapoor replying to a generalist question "Can india sustain a war if it is imposed at two fronts(read Pakistand and China)" should not be taken as a threat to Pak...The way China did not take it as a threat....

Anyways since you posted the news, did Pakistan specifically mentioned India? The answer is no where as the recent Indian military excerise vayu shakti specifically mentioned Pakistan.Here is a video; i am sure you already have seen it as you are here for quite some time, still to fresh ones memory:

YouTube - Vayu shakti 2010 - Indian Air Force Biggest show of Fire power and Combat capability

As i said above you don't need to stress your brain to figure out whom they are referring to..However there is nothing wrong in that...i am just using it as an analogy to share why i think General Kapoor was not threatning Pakistan...As far as this video is concerned please see all the reference to Pakistan is the interpretation of Media...I am sure you also know that such a big exercise cannot be planned overnight to show the migth of IAF to Pakistan....I am sure PA,PN and PAF also do exercises(both offensive and defensice) keeping India in mind ....

Again Kapoor specifically mentioned Pakistan and like i said before it is only natural for a smaller neighbor to be vary of such statements. We cant just sit and pray that Kapoor did not meant that or his statement was presented out of the context by their own media.

See here is the difference...Media sensalize..its their bread and butter....You cannot react on statements issued in media without looking at official response...If you would have gone through some reputed news sites you would have find out that he was answering to a generalist question..Something that has been highlighted by Indian media though understandably ignored by Pak media...

Ruppee news? seriously, i dont need to say anything more.

This was all over...I did not spent time to give you a credible link...Here you go..Hopefully you will find this legitimate

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

There was a reaction in China however understandbly not to that extent as in Pakistan because China as compared to Pakistan is a much bigger neighbor(bigger means stronger) even to India while on the other hand Pakistan naturally has to be vary because the threat is posed by a bigger neighbor some one we have fought 4 wars. With China India only had a border conflict. So you cannot compare apples with oranges here.

This is not comparing apples with oranges... This is reacting to news as per merit...If this was by any chance a threat you would have seen a mightier China would have ensured that GOI get the message loud and clear...However the distrust that we two countries enjoy do not let handle things maturally...

P.S : I hope i have made my points clear...Regarding Chidambaram statement this is official GOI stand re-iterated many time to GOP that this is their moral obligation not to let non-state actors use their soil to attack India...we have shown enough restraint but won't be able to show more patience if there is any more attack..So not sure why you want me to react to it???

Ok forget about the past, what about this?

India to act decisively if another attack happens: Chidambaram - GEO.tv