India offers to buy more U.S. helicopters, hopes to drive down costs

[C130]

We keep discussing the need of MMRCA when LCA is coming, while the difference between both is huge, so what's the point in Apaches with a low requirement in numbers, when LCH is the better choice for us in many ways?

you are getting a proven attack helicopter. might be in low number now but I suspect once India get's the apache she'll want at least a 100.

 

[sancho]

you are getting a proven attack helicopter. might be in low number now but I suspect once India get's the apache she'll want at least a 100.

Nobody denies that is proven and good in general, but not needed for Indian forces and not the best choice for Indian forces, when we develop our own combat helicopters, which will be based on proven techs and systems, with indigenous weapons and avionics, as well as specifically designed for the operations in and around India.

 

[C130]

Nobody denies that is proven and good in general, but not needed for Indian forces and not the best choice for Indian forces, when we develop our own combat helicopters, which will be based on proven techs and systems, with indigenous weapons and avionics, as well as specifically designed for the operations in and around India.

making your own helicopters,weapons, and other stuff takes time, and no offense but India weapons programs take forever and aren't a guaranteed thing.

 

[Hyperion]

Say it. Say it. ToT!

Are there going to be any Industrial Benefits which we may receive from this deal

 

[illusion8]

I do not think that you have got that quite correct. How does an Israeli designed radar, a Russian designed Radar, a Dutch designed (originally) Radar and an Indian designed Sonar talk to an Italian designed Gun, an Israeli designed SAM, a Russian designed ASW rocket system on an Indian warship?
Through systems integration; which is done through certain standardised ways like Link 16 or something equivalent.
So anything can be made to communicate to anything else by use of suitable interfacing.
While the technical part is not my area of expertise; it can be and is made to happen.

Ground sensors, radars, other awacs, other aircrafts in the air - Apache is programmed to work with them, the best utility of it is using it to its optimum capability and that comes with adopting western systems as a whole.

 

[Abingdonboy]

@sancho sir, it hasn't been confirmed that the additional 39 will go to the IAF, they could go to the AAC. And anyway the MoD has sanctioned 3 SQDs of heavy attack helos (Apaches more than likely) for the AAC, maybe these 22/39 Apaches will end up in the IA's hands later down the road anyway along with the IA's own Apaches.

And to suggest the LCHs are up to the same standard as latest the heavy lift helos around (Ah-64E) is quite clearly false sir, and we both know it. For the strike corps the Apaches can go out and act independently to hunt down enemy armour or (to a limited extent) perform their own SEAD missions whilst the LCHs are able to provide cover for the friendly armour and escort tasks for the IA and IAF's other rotary wing assets and the Rudras can be used for troop/SF insertion, escort roles and air assault.

 

[greatone]

Say it. Say it. ToT!

Yes Indian AFs are insistent on ToT with every purchase to help our fledgling defense industry and ensure availability during war.
One advantage of buying in large quantity is that it gives leverage.

 

[Echo_419]

Say it. Say it. ToT!

sval hi nahi utata @sancho muje chodee ga nahi,Industrial Benefits it is

 

[Hyperion]

In such a case, industrial benefits it is!

sval hi nahi utata @sancho muje chodee ga nahi,Industrial Benefits it is

 

[Capt.Popeye]

In such a case, industrial benefits it is!

Arey yaar, Emperor Miyan why are you bent on "liberally terrorising" us poor Indians on this thread????
Instead let us say: "Bhaiyon aur Behnon, eik saath kaho- Jai Ho Tehrik-e-Liberals ki !!"

 

[sancho]

@sancho sir, it hasn't been confirmed that the additional 39 will go to the IAF, they could go to the AAC. And anyway the MoD has sanctioned 3 SQDs of heavy attack helos (Apaches more than likely) for the AAC, maybe these 22/39 Apaches will end up in the IA's hands later down the road anyway along with the IA's own Apaches.

And to suggest the LCHs are up to the same standard as latest the heavy lift helos around (Ah-64E) is quite clearly false sir, and we both know it. For the strike corps the Apaches can go out and act independently to hunt down enemy armour or (to a limited extent) perform their own SEAD missions whilst the LCHs are able to provide cover for the friendly armour and escort tasks for the IA and IAF's other rotary wing assets and the Rudras can be used for troop/SF insertion, escort roles and air assault.

Again, IAF only want to replace 2 x Mi 35 squads they own, IA operates them and therefor want to take over the replacement of the same Mi 35s + add 1 more squadron to provide a total of 3 x strike corps with them. So it's about the same replacement, not additional requirements. If IA itself states a requirement of 3 x squads, what point does it make to give IAF 2 now and later provide them to IA again? Why pay for 2 x sqauds if they are not needed?

Wrt to the "heavy" myth, think it through man! The Apache has the same 4 x hardpoints for rockets or ATGMs as the LCH, with just a minor load difference, we are not talking about F15 and LCA here! And any dedicated combat helictoper is meant to operate independently an not only to support alongside of troops. There is nothing that would limit LCH here in anyway, just as it could be used for SEAD roles, since here again, the use of any combat helicopter would be the same. Closing in below the radar, taking out the site with rockets or ATGM, again we are not talking about fighters here, with special capabilities to detect and destroy air defences.

LCH will come with modern avionics and EW capabilities, the only real technical advantage the Apache has is the mast mounted radar, but there is nothing that would prevent us to develop that for LCH too.

So the whole heavy and light myth simply doesn't hold it's own and wasting that money on foreign helicopters, when we have an indigenous alternative and without a proper requirement of our forces that would justify another helicopter is simply a silly idea. This is just about 2 different forces, that are fighting for the same toys, nothing more!

 

[MadeintheUSA]

I don't see why not if the brits can build Apaches you all can too.
thinking U.S builds the first 30 to 50 and Indian can build the rest on license, how many you all need? a few hundred you all got a big boarder and china going to have thousands of tanks and Pakistan and Bangladesh might have a thousand or so too

you all going to need thousands of Hellfires, maybe Indian can sign up as a partner in R&D and manufacture them as all.

What they need vs. what they can afford is the issue- so a license deal to build them is not on the books right now.

These birds are by far the most lethal and most advanced in the world and the 2nd closest competitor to it is lacking by a mile. The US has offered India advanced R&D partnerships where both us and the Indians would use those weapons. It is now up to India to decide if they want to go for JV's with us. I would imagine instead of being a buyer-seller relationship, India would look upon JV's favorably, where both get full access to the technology.

 

[IND151]

Not surprising news....
The extra Apaches would be asked for anyway. Just as there should (and will be) an increase in the options for Chinooks.

Army will get apaches tooo, so ordering more apaches is not surprising.

India has offered a follow-on order of 39 AH-64D Apache helicopters in addition to the 22 now being negotiated, a defence ministry official said

That is 61 apaches.

The initial batch of helicopters is meant to replace the Indian Air Force's ageing fleet of Soviet-era aircraft and will be armed with Hellfire and Stinger missiles.

The Indian army has separately requested a fleet of at least 39 of these attack aircraft, some of which will be deployed as part of a new mountain division it is raising along the disputed border with China, an army official said.

Source: India offers to buy more U.S. helicopters, hopes to drive down costs

 

[Agent_47]

@sancho We are on same side.Apaches will be mainly used as tank hunters and any other roles can be done more economically by LCH.IA only have requirement of 39 (3 * sqd) in that role.So, Why on earth IAF need additional 22 when 65 LCH are on order ?.It will be a 1.2 billion additional stress for the IAF budget.which is in great need for money. IAF should let go this ego and let IA have some fun.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

@sancho We are on same side.Apaches will be mainly used as tank hunters and any other roles can be done more economically by LCH.IA only have requirement of 39 (3 * sqd) in that role.So, Why on earth IAF need additional 22 when 65 LCH are on order ?.It will be a 1.2 billion additional stress for the IAF budget.which is in great need for money. IAF should let go this ego and let IA have some fun.

This just raises some questions....... apart from the factual errors in your post there. First of all; the existing Attack Helicopters as well as the forth-coming ones come out of IA's funds and consequently belong to the IA. Even the OPEX for them are paid for by the IA just as their control vests with IA. However the IAF being the lead operating agency has ensured that it remains nominal....... but that is adifferent matter for dicussion that the MoD has long last, begun to adjudicate on.

But coming back to the questions that I started with: can you or anybody else here (@Abingdonboy, this is for you too) tell us whether the IA operates any Helos in the NE? If so, how many (atleast as a percentage of) Helo units there?
The answer(s) to that will give some clue to all who are merrily posting here on the merits of IAF v/s IA ownership etc. etc. or even how the Apaches fit into the 'calculus'!