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India might place orders for Two Advance Kilo submarines with Russia

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Russia is deprived of money or they need more money to build it self on the standards of USA, Quite sure now a days they are quite money hungry dealing with Pakistan, China even Syrian regime not for political but to add more money for their defense projects. Providing India with more subs not a surprise or shock for Pakistan because Indian navy is already for enough for Pakistan but a concern for China. Adding to that their safety standards are quite below as we compare to other sub manufacturing countries minus China because their real products still not in markets to evaluate. Even Russian fail to train Indians to safely operate subs and their ships and many accidents happen because of this like INS Sindhuraksak and many others. India have power to purchase they must look for other sub manufacturing countries for better stuff, Russian subs are quite prone to accidents.
Regards,
@WAJsal @Spectre
What is your opinion guys.
Sindhurakshak accident happened because the govt (of the day) was not giving funds to replace the batteries, not due to any training mishap.
Russia is not in duty of training of Naval personal for every ship we have. Kilos are fearsome subs and we need to also think the enemy we are going to face and understand is this going to be enough (we are talking of only 2 subs here).
 
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I think even in Visakhapatnam Missile shield will be placed.

Please give me the details of the *placing agency* I would like to get one for my home town as well. BTW why did you leave out Kanwar Naval Station ?
 
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@PARIKRAMA any chance we are going for 3 off the shelves upgraded talwars ?
there was some news on this one

It is being offered as Ukraine based Engines are a sureshot headache for Russia and India potentially a more "acceptable" customer. But RM MP has few concerns on that
1. Upgraded Talwar Price
2. The actual state of Ukraine Defense MIC and ability for future after sales services.
3. Bad experience of IAF upgradation An32 - 5 planes missing case..
4. The books of Indian shipyard is full so within next say 5-7 years these 3 provides joining opportunities to IN and strengthening the surface fleet
5. The cost of 3 upgraded talwars versus say 2 upgraded kilos taking care of Underwater fleet (Kilos advance wud be around 300-350Mn $ each) and diverting the rest amount to projects like say MTA (An32 replacement strategy)
6. On top Pipavav has also said they are keen to make 3-4 upgraded Talwars in India (Anil Ambani factor but longer time consuming solution especially with license build theme)

The upgraded Talwars are suppose to be equipped with Brahmos and are sureshot potent platforms (frigates) for ASW role. Of course if we plan our CBGs structure having these 3 is an add on benefit.

But for the price, time(last 3 are without Ukraine engines and will need 5 years minimum to complete and the first 3 with engines of Ukraine are going to join Black Sea Fleet.) and later the headache of sourcing the engines from Ukraine and present MIC uncertain conditions in Ukraine, i would rather advocate more judicious usage of this money.
 
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Vyom Sir few questions

1. When you talk of THAAD freely here, are you sure THAAD is actually exportable to any country. THAAD is the system comprises of the network of Early warning system including Ground based long range BME, AWAAC, Satellite survellance, UAV survellance etc etc + Missiles with diffent tier and its firecontrol radars + Control system something line C4I. So when you are purchasing THAAD does USA is going to give you all access to information from its spy and survellance satellites and its network OR PAC -3 missile system .

In Isolation it's futile to even discuss the possibility of *any advanced weapons system which has high battlefield awareness augmented by Information Tech (networked battle field) will even be provided to India, let alone THAAD. That's why I say if India is supposed to get them we need to sign CISMOA, BECA and LSA. yes that will allow us to be allies/partners on an equal footing. This is in continuance with the strategic partnership agreement of 2006 and the current DTTI.

*LSA enables us to use US bases and equal in the region/elsewhere to serve our Natl Security points. (Read the text of these three, google should help out)

2. So whatever you think or discuss, India have to develop his ABM of its own, though subsytems or technology could be bought.

3. PKS is not always correct, but what I like is he thinks Logically.

Regards Baki Lage Raho !!!

Yes, Home grown technology is always better than others tech. The lacunae here is the capacity of Indian R&D (and military infrastructure, MoD slept like idiots for a decade) establishment (which runs on peanuts) to churn out some thing as sophisticated elaborate as THAAD. while the threats we face are increasingly becoming more potent by the day.

Not a PKS fan, most of his comments are straight out of fiction, but they have certain reasoning behind them.
 
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Sindhurakshak accident happened because the govt (of the day) was not giving funds to replace the batteries, not due to any training mishap.
Russia is not in duty of training of Naval personal for every ship we have. Kilos are fearsome subs and we need to also think the enemy we are going to face and understand is this going to be enough (we are talking of only 2 subs here).
Dear i am not posting to undermine Indian navy never meant that i do acknowledge I.N edge over Pakistan. now cheers
Pls read this they already replaced the batteries
Accident (2010)[edit]
A fire broke out aboard Sindhurakshak while the vessel was in Visakhapatnam in February 2010. One sailor was killed and two others were injured. Navy officials reported that the fire had been caused by an explosion in the submarine's battery compartment, which occurred due to a faulty battery valve that leaked hydrogen gas.[20][21]

Upgrades[edit]
After the fire damage in 2010, Sindhurakshak was transported to Russia on board a heavy lift ship from Vishakapatnam in June 2010 for refit, overhaul and upgrade which lasted two and a half years.[22] In August 2010, Sindhurakshak arrived at the Zvezdochka shipyard in Russia. The submarine was modernised, repaired and retrofitted under Project 08773, and after the upgrade, the sea trials started in October 2012. The upgrades included improved electronic warfare systems, an integrated weapon control system and a new cooling system, and were expected to extend the service life of the submarine by ten years.[20][23] The Club-S (3M54E1 anti-ship and 3M14E land attack) missiles, USHUS sonar, СCS-MK-2 radio communication systems and Porpoise radio-locating radar, and other safety-enhancing features were incorporated.[9] The submarine was handed back to the Indian Navy on 27 January 2013,[15] after which it sailed back to India, under Commander Rajesh Ramkumar. This was the first time an Indian submarine had navigated under ice.[24][25][26]


Sindhurakshak at Portsmouth, UK, where it was berthed on its way to India after the mid-life overhaul
Incident in the Mediterranean[edit]
In March 2013, while returning from the refit, Sindhurakshak encountered severe storms in the Mediterranean Sea when it was travelling near Alexandria. This was part of the submarine's extensive three-month-long deployment, where it traveled 10,000 miles.[23][27] The severity of the storms prevented the Alexandria port authorities from sending a tugboat, and the shallow waters prevented the submarine from diving. An emergency call was placed via the Indian Ministry of External Affairsto the Egyptian Navy, which sent its latest tugboats and towed the submarine to Port Said.[28][29]

Explosion and sinking (2013)[edit]
On 14 August 2013, the Sindhurakshak sank after explosions caused by a fire on board when the submarine was berthed atMumbai. The fire, followed by a series of ordnance blasts on the armed submarine, occurred shortly after midnight. The fire was put out within two hours. It is unclear exactly what caused the fire. Due to damage from the explosions, the submarine sank and was partially submerged in 15 metres deep water at its berth, with only a portion of the sail visible above the water surface.[30][31][23][32][33] Three sailors on board reportedly jumped off to safety. Navy divers were also brought in as there was a possibility that 18 personnel were trapped inside. Defence Minister A. K. Antony confirmed that there were fatalities.[13]Other sources state that a small explosion occurred around midnight which then triggered the two larger explosions.[23]

Due to the explosion, the front section of the submarine was twisted, bent and crumpled, and water had entered the forward compartment. Another submarine, INS Sindhughosh was berthed very close to Sindhurakshak in the congested Mumbai naval dockyard; and sustained minor fire damage, however the navy has not released any details of the extent of damage.[30][34] Sindhurakshak's double hull was credited with preventing further damage to surrounding vessels.[35][32][36]Official sources said it was "highly unlikely" the submarine could be returned to service. The navy plans to begin salvage operations after the rescue operation is completed.[37][38] By 19 August, seven bodies had been recovered, with 11 still missing.[39][40][41] A Board of Inquiry, set up by the navy, was expected to present a report on the cause of the disaster by mid-September.[42] On 31 August, six of the eleven recovered bodies had been identified and sent home for last rites with military honours.[43]

The preliminary report indicated that "an accident or inadvertent mishandling of ammunition" was the cause of the explosions.[44][45] The complete incident report would only be submitted after the submarine is brought up from the harbor bed.[46] The salvage job was awarded to Resolve India, a subsidiary of the US-based Resolve Marine Group, on 31 January 2014 and will be completed by the end of June 2014.[47] The Chief of Naval Staff Admiral D.K. Joshi said that the navy was hopeful of using Sindhurakshak after it is salvaged, which would depend upon the hull survey to be done after the boat is re-floated.[1][2] The submarine was brought to the surface on 6 June 2014.[48]

In December 2014, a naval court of inquiry arrived at the preliminary conclusion that human error as a result of crew fatigue caused the disaster. A senior officer stated that “the crew was working beyond their prescribed hours. Fatigue and exhaustion may have triggered human error that led to the accident. Standard operating procedures were violated at several levels.” [49]

This will prove my point that Russian subs are quite prone to accidents.
Regards,
 
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Yeah, we are like France who canceled a billion dollar contact and put their credibility in line as a defence supplier and us who the only country who publicly supported the Russians.

I don't understand the love for the Russians, ideally we shouldn't have supported them either. And The Russo-European context, EU-France, NATO-EU-American contexts have to be studied here. Russian posturing was threat to Europe. France and Germany are the pillars which are keeping the EU alive, had the sale been made the other member states on the eastern front would have definitively felt more threatened, in context of Russian integration of Crimea. had that not happened the sale was fine. And it was just a sale to Russia, France showed middle finger to the sanctions that were put on India after Pokhran 2. reason being India was/is not a threat to Europe.

I could write a 3 page essays on it comlpete with references on statement and events that happened. but I don't have the luxury of time at the moment. Will type it over the weekend.

As i asked earlier, is this a new scenario ?
How do you conclude we can't make one in reasonable time ? considering we already completed phase 1.
Don't we already have Isreal co developed long range AESA ? Don't we already make credible military satellite ?

how do you define "reasonable time" for me reasonable time in till this administration is in power, and I think it will end by 2019 (I hope I am wrong). Middle east is going up in flames, and this fire will only spread. Like the precursor to WW1 was Three Emperors' League, formed in 1872, and from it came the Triple alliance. and then as they say is history, WW1 established the current world order (WW2 was the continuation of WW1) and we are moving towards another reshuffle here, (reason being Russia and China are getting increasingly in the way of the west not just in veto and diplomacy but is actual threats, UN is now redundant)

Why sudden uncle SAM love ? Are you saying we should suddenly abandon 6 decades of foreign policy in the time when we are getting prosperous and looking to become top 3 in a decade ?

Why the Distrust of US and the love of Russia ? None of them are saints, Russians are category A liars.

And what exactly did that 6 decades of "foreign policy" gave us ? Moral High ground ? good the problem with that is you cannot feed a billion plus people with high morals, we got sanctioned again and again, faced famines, no technology from the west, Russia was always a sellsr it *never* gave us technology. None of Our R&D scientists ever were trained in USSR. all our stell plants were bought off the self, like Pakistan is buying now from China.So you believe the 6 decade old policy that never worked to uplift us will suddenly somehow work in the next three decades when the world is no where near close to it was one decade ago ?

We have always converging interest with US so does Pakistan. You write like geopolitics is some Christopher Jonathan, it is simple as common sense.

Yes, If Pakistan had a sane Civilian Government it would be reaping the benefit of its alliance with USA. Sadly that was not to be.

Try to learn about geo politics without affect of western softpower on you! .I believe you has some way to travel.
Henry Kissingers notes on US foreign policy is a good start.

There is no such thing as soft power, the guy with the biggest gun is the boss. that's how primitive the Human race is. Kissenger used the Westaphilian intl. law model to the interest of USA. Nations are just like tribes trying to establish suzerainty over one another. In the cloaks of Civility, Order and Democracy all nations behave as such. Kissinger mastered how and when these cloaks should be used. and how could he invoke intl law to get away with murder. Seer Genius if you ask me, (had to be Jew :lol:).

Those times are long gone, the theory lives, the world order is poised for a revision, and our "home grown R&D, technology" is 30 years behind the cutting edge. Not one Single scientific breakthrough has taken place in India in the last 6 decades. We are busy reinventing the wheel, China is busy copying the god damn wheel, and mass producing it. While USA is Making cars and have robots mass produce it.
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The reshuffle is coming near, and we don't have "reasonable time" or the technological capacity to be at parity with them.

Dear i am not posting to undermine Indian navy never meant that i do acknowledge I.N edge over Pakistan. now cheers
Pls read this they already replaced the batteries
Accident (2010)[edit]
A fire broke out aboard Sindhurakshak while the vessel was in Visakhapatnam in February 2010. One sailor was killed and two others were injured. Navy officials reported that the fire had been caused by an explosion in the submarine's battery compartment, which occurred due to a faulty battery valve that leaked hydrogen gas.[20][21]

Upgrades[edit]
After the fire damage in 2010, Sindhurakshak was transported to Russia on board a heavy lift ship from Vishakapatnam in June 2010 for refit, overhaul and upgrade which lasted two and a half years.[22] In August 2010, Sindhurakshak arrived at the Zvezdochka shipyard in Russia. The submarine was modernised, repaired and retrofitted under Project 08773, and after the upgrade, the sea trials started in October 2012. The upgrades included improved electronic warfare systems, an integrated weapon control system and a new cooling system, and were expected to extend the service life of the submarine by ten years.[20][23] The Club-S (3M54E1 anti-ship and 3M14E land attack) missiles, USHUS sonar, СCS-MK-2 radio communication systems and Porpoise radio-locating radar, and other safety-enhancing features were incorporated.[9] The submarine was handed back to the Indian Navy on 27 January 2013,[15] after which it sailed back to India, under Commander Rajesh Ramkumar. This was the first time an Indian submarine had navigated under ice.[24][25][26]


Sindhurakshak at Portsmouth, UK, where it was berthed on its way to India after the mid-life overhaul
Incident in the Mediterranean[edit]
In March 2013, while returning from the refit, Sindhurakshak encountered severe storms in the Mediterranean Sea when it was travelling near Alexandria. This was part of the submarine's extensive three-month-long deployment, where it traveled 10,000 miles.[23][27] The severity of the storms prevented the Alexandria port authorities from sending a tugboat, and the shallow waters prevented the submarine from diving. An emergency call was placed via the Indian Ministry of External Affairsto the Egyptian Navy, which sent its latest tugboats and towed the submarine to Port Said.[28][29]

Explosion and sinking (2013)[edit]
On 14 August 2013, the Sindhurakshak sank after explosions caused by a fire on board when the submarine was berthed atMumbai. The fire, followed by a series of ordnance blasts on the armed submarine, occurred shortly after midnight. The fire was put out within two hours. It is unclear exactly what caused the fire. Due to damage from the explosions, the submarine sank and was partially submerged in 15 metres deep water at its berth, with only a portion of the sail visible above the water surface.[30][31][23][32][33] Three sailors on board reportedly jumped off to safety. Navy divers were also brought in as there was a possibility that 18 personnel were trapped inside. Defence Minister A. K. Antony confirmed that there were fatalities.[13]Other sources state that a small explosion occurred around midnight which then triggered the two larger explosions.[23]

Due to the explosion, the front section of the submarine was twisted, bent and crumpled, and water had entered the forward compartment. Another submarine, INS Sindhughosh was berthed very close to Sindhurakshak in the congested Mumbai naval dockyard; and sustained minor fire damage, however the navy has not released any details of the extent of damage.[30][34] Sindhurakshak's double hull was credited with preventing further damage to surrounding vessels.[35][32][36]Official sources said it was "highly unlikely" the submarine could be returned to service. The navy plans to begin salvage operations after the rescue operation is completed.[37][38] By 19 August, seven bodies had been recovered, with 11 still missing.[39][40][41] A Board of Inquiry, set up by the navy, was expected to present a report on the cause of the disaster by mid-September.[42] On 31 August, six of the eleven recovered bodies had been identified and sent home for last rites with military honours.[43]

The preliminary report indicated that "an accident or inadvertent mishandling of ammunition" was the cause of the explosions.[44][45] The complete incident report would only be submitted after the submarine is brought up from the harbor bed.[46] The salvage job was awarded to Resolve India, a subsidiary of the US-based Resolve Marine Group, on 31 January 2014 and will be completed by the end of June 2014.[47] The Chief of Naval Staff Admiral D.K. Joshi said that the navy was hopeful of using Sindhurakshak after it is salvaged, which would depend upon the hull survey to be done after the boat is re-floated.[1][2] The submarine was brought to the surface on 6 June 2014.[48]

In December 2014, a naval court of inquiry arrived at the preliminary conclusion that human error as a result of crew fatigue caused the disaster. A senior officer stated that “the crew was working beyond their prescribed hours. Fatigue and exhaustion may have triggered human error that led to the accident. Standard operating procedures were violated at several levels.” [49]

This will prove my point that Russian subs are quite prone to accidents.
Regards,

Thank you for your Insight. we lost a sub and we didn't notice. The Republic Of India will be grateful to you for bringing this to our notice. :rolleyes:
 
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