India left "disappointed" as US goes ahead with F-16 sale to Pakistan.

[LeGenD]

such as?

software depth is not something you develop in one year or two years. Insiders know how deep this dependency is. The issue is not pure software technology. The real dependency is the extent of specific application and business process knowledge that has been outsourced in such massive numbers to the Indian 'majors' as they are called, that locals in the US simply do not hope to ever bring back.

Secondly to 'bring' that knowledge back there are only two strategies: 1) hire a lot of locals and have them trained over time. You can imaging what this would cost if a company is to replace software talent from India even at a 3:1 ratio. 2) Complete create new software systems using local talent - this actually may be the better long term option BUT it is a non-starter for one reason: good software engineers want to work in Silicon Valley for innovative product startups, NOT developing banking systems!

The only concern Indian IT business had was if China would somehow manage to teach English to its software millions. Over the past 15 years, China has tried real hard and failed. Meanwhile Indian companies have diversified into Europe where I understand now 30 to 40% revenues come from; plus some of these companies are buying up American companies with their cash.

Finally the concept of 'Indian IT' has changed. Would you consider IBM, Accenture, CSC et al to be part of American or Indian IT sector? Yet these companies all have more than half their staff in India. I mean in tens of thousands.




All these countries put together cannot come up with the scale of one Indian major in software. Secondly, Pakistan is not trusted; BD & Nepal do not have IBM AT'16s yet; Srilanka sends its best and brightest to South India colleges; Philippines has been and tried and failed in software, but have indeed developed excellent call centers (which India is happy to give up due to low value). That leaves Vietnam - completely unknown as yet (at least to me...and I happen to be aware of almost ALL major IT deals made in the US).

If India gets its act straight, they have a very real chance of true partnership with the US. The Americans, the Indians and the world deserve that. But it requires India to clean up its act and growing up fast.



It is very difficult to find anyone that will say otherwise. Workers are workers and we all have to slog to make a living. So anytime anyone loses their job, it is impossible to justify that for any reason.

That said it always surprises me to see how many otherwise reasonable and truth-seeking (fellow) Americans fail to look at data before making such statements. If you have a cut in you toe will you put a bandaid there or treat your hair follicle?
America lost its manufacturing base - jobs, capital and intellectual property in massive numbers to China. That is where the malaise is. A good software engineer (not documentation specialiast, not QA tester, not requirements associate...) is HARD to find in the USA. They are all either working for startups for options or located in Israel, India and Russia. There are many many in China too but they have been corralled for cyber warfare by that country.

The place to start is to bring back manufacturing into the USA. Or atleast start diversifying out of China.

If you don't believe that just look at the state of demand and supply for goods from automobile, steel, paper goods, rubber industries in the US. If you see the ratio of demand vs source of supply for these goods (I am talking goods, not raw material) you will realize how many tens of millions of jobs have been lost. And you are worried about 65000 H1b visas! Do you realize H1B visa holders work IN The US and the government at least get taxes from them besides fees. Whereas in the industries I mentioned, the job loss is 100+ times that plus complete loss tax revenue PLUS flight of capital! Come on!

So you have figured it all out? I suppose that you have statistical figures to support your claims?

US is a talent magnet and it isn't difficult for the US to outsource some jobs to other nations and/or find a suitable replacement if a country goes rogue.

Top software developing countries in the world in 2014:-

US = 19.2%
China = 10.1%
India = 9.8%

The aforementioned statistics haven't changed much since 2013.

Moreover, number of software developers are evenly distributed worldwide:

Source: IDC Study: How Many Software Developers Are Out There?

You think that only India produces capable programmers? You are deluding yourself.

India is one of the major software exporting markets because of cheap labor! Full Stop. American software programmer demands much higher salary then an Indian software developer on average.

Also, check the world innovation index: These Are the World's Most Innovative Economies - Bloomberg Business

---

As far as manufacturing industry is concerned, it represents only 12% of the total US economy at present. Yes, American economy is so massive and diverse.

However, US is looking forward to expand its domestic manufacturing base in the near future. US is learning a lesson from China in this area.

 

[Tiger Genie]

This issue needs to be publicized a lot more so other workers impacted negatively in similar situations can pressure the legislature to put controls in place to prevent abuse.

And that is the problem - what controls are in place to ensure that companies like TCS that are operating in the US consider US citizens and residents for these jobs before bringing in H1B workers at extremely low wages and harsh work conditions (in the US)?

Extrapolate away from IT/Engineering services for a second - almost every sector of the US economy could be 'internally outsourced' to Indian/Mexican/Chinese subsidiaries operating in the US who would then bring in 'H1B contract workers' from their respective countries to work at Walmart wage levels. The concept that allowed Disney and TCS (and other American companies) to do what they did is a recipe for disaster in the long run.

There's a simple solution - if a company like Disney has an IT department with a workforce that is 80% American Citizen/Resident prior to outsourcing, then the incoming Indian subsidiary in the US (that Disney outsourced its IT work to) should be required to ensure that 80% of its workforce resident in the US is also comprised of US Citizens/Residents.


Pure free market capitalism is best applicable in an environment where the underlying factors are relatively the same. The cost of living in the US is much higher - a college education costs a lot more, housing costs more, so how exactly in this 'pure free market capitalism' is American labor supposed to compete with labor from developing and under-developed and over populated countries?

You missed the whole point then. Any 'flow' occurs only between unequal countries.

So you have figured it all out?

US is a talent magnet and it isn't difficult for the US to outsource jobs to other nations and find a suitable replacement if a country goes rogue.

Top software developing countries in the world during 2014:-

US = 19.2%
China = 10.1%
India = 9.8%

The aforementioned statistics haven't changed much since 2013.

Number of software developers are evenly distributed worldwide:

Source: IDC Study: How Many Software Developers Are Out There?

You think that only India produces capable programmers? You are deluding yourself.

India is a major software exporting market because of cheap labor! Full Stop. American software programmer demands much higher salary then an Indian software developer on average.

Also, check the world innovation index: These Are the World's Most Innovative Economies - Bloomberg Business

---

As far as manufacturing industry is concerned, it represents only 12% of the total US economy at present. Yes, American economy is so massive and diverse.

However, US is looking forward to expand its domestic manufacturing base in coming years.

Obviously you are a great BSer. What has this yo do with what's said? You are bringing some random links which are unconnected with points about how difficult it is to move INDIA from their perch in IT outsourcing ...and then you simply say 'it won't be difficult '. Rubbish must be your credo.

 

[PDF]

Stop this IT related sh*t and stay on topic.

 

[LeGenD]

Obviously you are a great BSer. What has this yo do with what's said? You are bringing some random links which are unconnected with points about how difficult it is to move INDIA from their perch in IT outsourcing ...and then you simply say 'it won't be difficult '. Rubbish must be your credo.

Two words: Truth hurts

I have a history of addressing nonsense when I notice it and will continue to do so.

Nobody is denying India's significance in the global software industry but you are overreaching in your assumptions. If Indians will refuse to develop software for the US, the latter [will be able] to find an adequate replacement (or replacements) for the said purpose, sooner or later. Also, think about the number of jobs that Indians will loose in this area.

My point is that you cannot just blackmail US in the matters of its foreign policy and get away with it. US is still the superpower, India is not.

 

[Levina]

There are so many of them, so even if 1 million expired, who would be able to actually notice?

FYI- U.S. Congress has 30 days to veto the transfer of F-16.
I am not saying veto will be used.
I also heard that U.S. lawmakers were under immense pressure from Lockheed Martin.
US and Russia are once again making Pakistan their playground. It might take you some time to realise this.

 

[Paksanity]

FYI- U.S. Congress has 30 days to veto the transfer of F-16.
I am not saying veto will be used.

Clinging onto straws; are we now?

US and Russia are once again making Pakistan their playground. It might take you some time to realise this

What if we are smart now?

How's that joint patrol of Chinese sea coming up?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

You missed the whole point then. Any 'flow' occurs only between unequal countries.

Such 'labor flow' (referring to the loophole being exploited by companies like Disney to in-source to foreign subsidiaries that bring in foreign workers under H1B programs) between unequal countries requires strong regulation, which in turn is not 'pure free market capitalism'.

 

[NABZ]

INDIAHAHAHAHAHA

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Anti depressants help with Disappointment

 

[somebozo]

US values their exports and money more than anything else .
We have already seen their painful reactions after we kicked them out from MMRCA .
US Ambassador at that time was forced to left his seat in India .
We hope they can react like that in future also

Absurd mentality like this affect Indians from ordinary walk of life all the way to top echelons of government..an India..who manages to grab even a minuscule seat in corporate power starts to think the same way...the world does not revolve around India..

Such 'labor flow' (referring to the loophole being exploited by companies like Disney to in-source to foreign subsidiaries that bring in foreign workers under H1B programs) between unequal countries requires strong regulation, which in turn is not 'pure free market capitalism'.

Not to mention there is a serious back lash against this artificial inflow of cheap labor and is hurting the economic competency...and with Indians being the sole beneficiary it is also creating racial tensions..it takes a few crack heads to rise up and create the propaganda of economic terrorism by cheap immigrant invasion..and then the fun part begins for Indians..

 

[Khafee]

Sir it still lacks the AESA radar, something i am more interested in. Rest of the things are more towards COIN operations. Right?

I have a feeling the APG-83 isn't far behind.

 

[mingle]

I have a feeling the APG-83 isn't far behind.

I agree with u it might be next order but I feel PAF will love to have more F16s new ones .But Indian reaction is nothing more than a toddler attitude they r like Hen who eat and voice at one house but laid egg another house Americans must be happy to see them crying reason Indian hurt them at MMRCA deal .

 

[somebozo]

Wise people in India will want Pakistan to have a balance in conventional weapons. Wise people will not push Pakistan in the corner. But where are the wise people?

Thanks to unwise people only a fool in Pakistani leadership would put trusting india in the FP..

 

[帅的一匹]

That'd be disastrous not only for the Indian IT industry which gets 50 to 60% of its revenue from the US but also and probably much more disastrous on the US financial services, banking services, IT services industries. All sectors of the US will be affected significantly, not just these. Anyone who thinks ony call centers will be affected has turned off his/her brain 10 years ago. Call centers have moved and movable easily to Phillipines but not real IT. US and India are now inter-dependent.

Your it role can be easily replaced by China.

 

[tarrar]

Hi,

If I was you---I would also have my head spinning at what paf does.

The current JF17 blk two is similar or as good as the current gripen.

The BLK3 JF17 with aesa and other compatible package would be on the level with the Gripen NG.

Now as the F16 purchase is with the war on terror funds---the F16's are fine----but the paf needs to procure a 4.5 gen aircraft asap.

Swedes are not happy with us---we might have stolen some of their buyers in africa and middle east---

Of JF17 Block 3 gets Italian avionics then JF17 Block 3 will be lethal & of course lets not forget India will surely cry in front of Italy.

It's a sensible ask, but a tough one. At the end of the day the PAF, like any massive organization, has its inherent inertia. The F-16 is a mature and capable platform, and the PAF has the necessary infrastructure to smoothly induct new aircraft of the model. Is it politically 'safe?' Nope, but the PAF knows the devil that is the U.S., what can it say about Russia? Europe? The PAF at least has an idea of how to get around U.S. sanctions (it has dealt with them on multiple occassions), but Russia? Where will it start?

I don't think new platforms such as the Su-35 are out of the question, but it will be some time before the PAF feels comfortable enough to take such a risk (assuming Russia is also on board).

I feel that Russia is only throwing trap to capture India by saying they are going to sell SU35 & other high tech hardware to Pakistan, where as in reality they are not going to sell good stuff to Pakistan because they want India to stay with them.