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India, Italy work on deal on marines - Secret talks on 'road map'

H.B.

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New Delhi, Dec. 30: India is secretly negotiating a "road map" with Italy to end four years of bitter diplomatic battles riddled with betrayals and threats over the arrest of two Italian marines.

The deal New Delhi and Rome are negotiating will require each to agree to key requests of the other, over a case that is both emotionally and politically sensitive in both countries, three senior officials told The Telegraph.

But the negotiations will in no way interfere with the legal aspects of the case being heard at the Supreme Court here and at the Hamburg-based International Tribunal on the Law of the Seas (ITLOS) and will not attempt any out-of-court settlement, the officials said.

If the deal is finalised, the Indian government will not object to any Italian plea before the Supreme Court to allow Salvatore Girone, one of the two marines arrested for shooting dead two Kerala fishermen off India's coast on February 15, 2012, to return to Italy. Massimiliano Latorre, the other marine, is already in Italy. (See chart)

But Italy will first need to commit to withdrawing objections to New Delhi's membership to four key export control regimes - the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG), Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR), the Wassenaar Arrangement and the Australia Group.

Italy, a member of all four clubs that control the world's trade in nuclear supplies, high-end missiles, chemicals that can be used for weapons and "dual use" technology - which can be used for military purposes - had in September vetoed India's membership application to the MTCR.

CHOPPY WATERS

How the marines case led to a bilateral stand-off

Feb. 15, 2012: Shots fired from the Italian merchant vessel Enrica Lexie kill Ajesh Biki and Valentine, two Indian fishermen who were sailing in their skiff off the coast of Kerala. The Italian vessel is intercepted and forced to dock at Kochi

Feb. 16: Massimiliano Latore and Salvatore Girone, two Italian marines on the Enrica Lexie, are charged with murder

Oct. 17: Italian foreign minister Guilio Terzi accuses India of “subterfuge” in leading the Italian ship to Kochi without informing the captain that the marines will be arrested

December: Court allows the marines to return home for Christmas on the condition that they return. They do

Feb. 22, 2013: The Supreme Court allows the marines to return home to vote after ambassador Daniele Mancini files an affidavit committing to their return

March 11: Italy refuses to send the marines back

March 14: The Supreme Court bars Mancini, the Italian ambassador, from leaving India till the marines return. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh warns Italy of “consequences”

March 26: Terzi, the Italian foreign minister, resigns over criticism of his handling of the case

April 2: The Supreme Court withdraws its order barring Mancini from leaving India

Feb. 8, 2014: India announces the two marines will be charged under an anti-piracy legislation but will not face capital punishment. Italy protests

Feb. 24: India says it will try the marines under laws less stringent than the anti-piracy legislation

Sept. 12: The Supreme Court allows Latore to return home for treatment for a stroke on the condition that he return to India. The apex court gives further extensions to allow Latore to stay in Italy

March 14, 2015: India calls off a planned summit with the EU after Brussels delays finalising dates

July 18: Italy approaches the Hamburg-based International Tribunal on the Law of the Seas for a resolution of what it insists is an “international dispute” because the shooting occurred outside Indian waters

August 24: The Hamburg tribunal asks the Indian Supreme Court to stop proceedings till it determines jurisdiction over the case but also dismisses Italy’s demand that Girone too be allowed to return to Italy

Sept. 30: Italy vetoes India’s membership application at the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR).

Rome, under the deal being negotiated - which Indian officials are carefully calling a "road map" - will also need to withdraw its diplomatic pressure on the European Union against expediting trade deals with New Delhi. Prime Minister Narendra Modi is expected to visit Brussels in the first half of 2016 for a summit with the EU not held since 2012, lending urgency to the negotiations.

Finally, Italy will need to commit before the Supreme Court that if the international tribunal hearing the case decides in India's favour, the marines will return here to stand trial.

"Where we can do things without compromising the authority of the Supreme Court or the integrity of our legal system, we should try and find a resolution," former foreign secretary Kanwal Sibal, who was earlier involved in informal parleys over the case with then Italian deputy foreign minister Stefano di Mistura, told The Telegraph. "After all, Italy is a major country, India is the economy the world is eyeing, and both are losing from the current crisis."

The dispute was originally focused around Italy's refusal to accept that the shooting occurred in Indian waters and that the Indian legal system would apply. Rome continues to argue that the incident took place in international waters.

But ties began to spiral downwards sharply after Italy violated a commitment to the Supreme Court here.

In January 2015, European Union foreign policy chief and former Italian foreign minister Federica Mogherini criticised in the European parliament India's actions against the marines. Two months later, the EU dithered on finalising dates for a visit by Modi to Brussels, pushing an angry India into cancelling the trip.

"Ever since Mogherini took charge of the EU's foreign policy, it became clear that she was influencing the group's approach towards India, and the delay over the PM's dates was symptomatic," Rajendra Jain, the director of European Studies at Jawaharlal Nehru University, said.

Politically, the case is sensitive in both countries. In Kerala, which goes to polls next year, the Congress state government has faced criticism from its opponents every time the earlier Manmohan Singh government at the Centre, also led by the Congress, tried to demonstrate any flexibility in resolving the dispute.

Like in India, the case has sparked emotional expressions in Italy.

In October 2012, Italian Formula One team Ferrari decided to fly the Italian Navy flag on its cars while racing in the Indian Grand Prix, as a show of support to the marines. And ahead of the 2014 FIFA World Cup, the Italian football federation brought out two player jerseys with "Latorre" and "Girone" printed on them.

"For the Italians, this is a major emotional issue," Sibal said. "The idea that the marine can't return home is hard for them to accept."

But the pitfalls of allowing the relationship to stagnate are also increasingly becoming evident to both nations, officials said.

Italian shoe makers, for instance, are looking to set up manufacturing bases in India with its cheaper labour - a move that would also fit perfectly in with Modi's drive to encourage domestic manufacturing. But the companies are holding back on investments because of bilateral tensions.

With the international tribunal ordering both sides to desist from legal measures against each other till it decides on jurisdiction, the timing may be right for a thaw, said Jain.

"There's nothing either side can do against the other at the moment anyway," Jain said. "And I sense that things may be cooling down as a result."

India, Italy work on deal on marines
 
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On this matter, I am firmly on India's side. Go get those lying Italian brats!
 
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Italians thought we are Saudi Arabia where one can get away after paying blood money. But the Indian side is caught in a fix. It seems we cannot prosecute them as the crime was done in International waters. Even then, if the law is changed it cannot be applied retrospectively.
The Marine in question have spent 4 years in India, though as a guest in Italian embassy. Time to release him. No other way. The way I see it, there is no way Italy would have blamed its marines and have given a "fair" trial on its land.
 
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Let Italy vote in favour of India and then let them off. No compromise on that.
 
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Well it's time to come to a deal and release those seamen ! No amount of jail time is going to bring back the fishermen. India should try to not make it an ego issue since they have already spent a good amount of time behind bars and try to negotiate a settlement.
 
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Well it's time to come to a deal and release those seamen ! No amount of jail time is going to bring back the fishermen. India should try to not make it an ego issue since they have already spent a good amount of time behind bars and try to negotiate a settlement.

Settlement is easy. Fulfill the conditions laid out and take them back.
 
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Italians thought we are Saudi Arabia where one can get away after paying blood money. But the Indian side is caught in a fix. It seems we cannot prosecute them as the crime was done in International waters. Even then, if the law is changed it cannot be applied retrospectively.
The Marine in question have spent 4 years in India, though as a guest in Italian embassy. Time to release him. No other way. The way I see it, there is no way Italy would have blamed its marines and have given a "fair" trial on its land.
Well well man why you r bringing islamic law of KSA atleast that law gave option to take blood money or just ask for punishment it is not binding to take blood money it depends on person atleast there is a gain


But i tell u neither u nor govt of india and supreme court do anything

Before criticise read ur not ksa but if u think u better proove it by hanging them i assure u it never gona happen less talk abd proove
 
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Well it's time to come to a deal and release those seamen ! No amount of jail time is going to bring back the fishermen. India should try to not make it an ego issue since they have already spent a good amount of time behind bars and try to negotiate a settlement.
Has There Been A American or European Citizen Killed Same Way the Western Media Might Have gone Berserk.
 
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Well well man why you r bringing islamic law of KSA atleast that law gave option to take blood money or just ask for punishment it is not binding to take blood money it depends on person atleast there is a gain


But i tell u neither u nor govt of india and supreme court do anything

Before criticise read ur not ksa but if u think u better proove it by hanging them i assure u it never gona happen less talk abd proove
Manthay hai admi pathar may be kudha doond lethat hai,hairan hoon par thum oski post may islam kha say neekal liyah bhai.

Well well man why you r bringing islamic law of KSA atleast that law gave option to take blood money or just ask for punishment it is not binding to take blood money it depends on person atleast there is a gain


But i tell u neither u nor govt of india and supreme court do anything

Before criticise read ur not ksa but if u think u better proove it by hanging them i assure u it never gona happen less talk abd proove
Manthay hai admi pathar may be kudha doond lethat hai,hairan hoon par thum oski post may islam kha say neekal liyah bhai.

Well well man why you r bringing islamic law of KSA atleast that law gave option to take blood money or just ask for punishment it is not binding to take blood money it depends on person atleast there is a gain


But i tell u neither u nor govt of india and supreme court do anything

Before criticise read ur not ksa but if u think u better proove it by hanging them i assure u it never gona happen less talk abd proove
Manthay hai admi pathar may be kudha doond lethat hai,hairan hoon par thum oski post may islam kha say neekal liyah bhai.
 
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Manthay hai admi pathar may be kudha doond lethat hai,hairan hoon par thum oski post may islam kha say neekal liyah bhai.


Manthay hai admi pathar may be kudha doond lethat hai,hairan hoon par thum oski post may islam kha say neekal liyah bhai.


Manthay hai admi pathar may be kudha doond lethat hai,hairan hoon par thum oski post may islam kha say neekal liyah bhai.

English pls :D

Well well man why you r bringing islamic law of KSA atleast that law gave option to take blood money or just ask for punishment it is not binding to take blood money it depends on person atleast there is a gain


But i tell u neither u nor govt of india and supreme court do anything

Before criticise read ur not ksa but if u think u better proove it by hanging them i assure u it never gona happen less talk abd proove

Lol. That law is favourable to the rich. To this day. Anyone can kill and can come out using money. If the poor does not reciprocate, he can still be bullied with.
Equal laws provide punishment irrespective of crimes. That's what I have been trying to tell. Compensation is a different word than Blood money. Compensation has already been provided to Indian Fishermens. With evidence present, they should have been in Jail. But the GoI is in catch 22. A solution was to provide sentence here and spend the jail time in Italy. but after the previous betrayal of Italy, GoI is wary of considering that option too
 
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Well it's time to come to a deal and release those seamen ! No amount of jail time is going to bring back the fishermen. India should try to not make it an ego issue since they have already spent a good amount of time behind bars and try to negotiate a settlement.
Its not a question of ego. Its the rule of law & order. Marines have to go through the legal procedures. behind bars? They are living happy life for past 4 years with all the comfort. Any murder conviction carries min 10 years imprisonment.

I am always surprised at white mans audacity ( like yours) where they tend to brush aside heinous crimes if it is committed against other ppl. A similar crime in US would have sealed his fate for 20 years. Only criminals negotiate with other criminals.

Italians thought we are Saudi Arabia where one can get away after paying blood money. But the Indian side is caught in a fix. It seems we cannot prosecute them as the crime was done in International waters. Even then, if the law is changed it cannot be applied retrospectively.
The Marine in question have spent 4 years in India, though as a guest in Italian embassy. Time to release him. No other way. The way I see it, there is no way Italy would have blamed its marines and have given a "fair" trial on its land.
No, we will handle him with our legendary bureaucracy , will drag the case for another 10 years. It should be lesson for others not to indulge in such crimes in Indian jurisdiction.

Has There Been A American or European Citizen Killed Same Way the Western Media Might Have gone Berserk.
correct, they want to dilute the law for the white man.
 
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kill them r hang. them seriously they killed our people.
what a weak and pathetic country India is !
 
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Its not a question of ego. Its the rule of law & order. Marines have to go through the legal procedures. behind bars? They are living happy life for past 4 years with all the comfort. Any murder conviction carries min 10 years imprisonment.

I am always surprised at white mans audacity ( like yours) where they tend to brush aside heinous crimes if it is committed against other ppl. A similar crime in US would have sealed his fate for 20 years. Only criminals negotiate with other criminals.


No, we will handle him with our legendary bureaucracy , will drag the case for another 10 years. It should be lesson for others not to indulge in such crimes in Indian jurisdiction.


correct, they want to dilute the law for the white man.

He is still living as a king, if u know. Later he will write an autobiography of his sufferings in India to earn millions
 
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But Italy will first need to commit to withdrawing objections to New Delhi's membership to four key export control regimes - the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG), Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR), the Wassenaar Arrangement and the Australia Group.
It is almost impossibe to fathom that agreements of this scale are being held back by such pettiness.


Well it's time to come to a deal and release those seamen ! No amount of jail time is going to bring back the fishermen. India should try to not make it an ego issue since they have already spent a good amount of time behind bars and try to negotiate a settlement.

This seems to undermine the entire principle of the rule of law. Most nations in the world imprison murderers for extended periods of time, even manslaughter is dealth with with mandatory jail stretches in most nations I can think of. I'm not sure where "ego" comes into practicing the rule of law. I do agree though, that both sides have taken this far too personally and allowed this incident to dicate their strategic interests which is incredibly foolish.
 
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