India involved in Lahore attacks: Police

[pakomar]

enigma947



i am trying my best that i should avoid this thread untill the reports come in, but you people are so persistent...

ah impatient are you not?


i wonder then how come they catch the poor fisher-men every second day.

well so many of them roam around in those waters, its easy pickings actually if you were to think of it in terms of probability. now terrorists were in odds of probably 5-7 x 1000:1 ratio so if your basic maths is fair am sure you can work out where the chances of success were heavier, the terrorists or the coast guard?


BTW the americans and other westerns don't let this happen-they don't let any other boat pass into their lands, probably they rightly claim to have a global navy. The indian navy i must suggest should step down on this stance of being a so called 'global sorta navy'

ah PN must be in coast guard role. IN is not .... they are more into force projection and containing PN whenever hostilities take place (eg. 1971, 1999 etc)

It has already decided.
The RAW have proven it's worth in Kargil, the failiure of prior info on many terror attacks, fueling insurgency in Balochistan and supporting the Afghan govt against Pakistan and feeding the terrorist in Wana and surrounding.
We know what they are capable of and what not.

Totally an antithetical position. You are still confused. Is RAW capable or not?? They cant get away without being caught in their own country than how can they be good in an alien terrain? confused still I guess


Can't get their sh!t cleaned up inside the country but can play an all-rounder outside!!

an antithesis here too ......


Wow, whould you please enlighten me of the employment of weapons to full extent. i suppose they were terrorist, not Pakistan Army fighting at siachen.

PA does not sit on Siachen, they lost it back in 90s. They sit below it sir. the glacier is today fully in control of IA.


Which 'full extent' weapons did they use by the way: Milan, Pinaka, old vintage heavy artillery guns or Vijayanta tanks, that the permission was required with the so call political directives even after when hundreds have already been killed.

Vijayants are phased out and few which are, are handed over to Infantry units along DCB for pillbox role. As for employment of weapons, the choice would have been on chemicals (read: fentanyl type derivatives ....) and now if you dont know about them .... just too bad


One CQB weapon, a few smoke grenades, a few other Flash n Bang grenades, alot of will power, determination, courage and dare-ness and important of all, alot of national support (which i am sure you did give) that's all what is require for such kinda ops.

not playing black hawk down on computers here are we? if was so simple am sure in a population of one billion some one would have thought of it sir.

i am seriously impressed

as I with your post

I do n t know what kind of idiots we are dealing with but all your points are baseless.

1. Indian fishing boat sported these terrorists but Indian navy and coast guard did n t.

2. If Indians think they are such useless agency than end RAW now .So Pakistan will blame no one. (Then who was involved in 1971)

3. Flash bang basic entry procedure for commandos to enter a vertical coffin (doors) .it is use to stun the enemy.

4. Ajmal Kasab came for suicide attack why he did n t die there. I tell you why the show must go on for India. He was RAW agent.

By the way you describe Indians intelligent agencies and commandos your government are wasting money on Indian defense. Now I know Indian cost guard and navy must by useless to. Use the defense money to help poor people in India at least you will defeat poverty from India.

 

[shravan]

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

Liberty, Manawan attackers linked to India: Sanaullah

LAHORE: Terrorists who attacked the Sri Lankan cricket team and the Manawan police training school in Lahore are linked with India as they confessed to being trained in Amritsar, Punjab Law Minister Rana Sanaullah said on Tuesday. Addressing a Rescue 1122 passing-out ceremony at the Emergency Services Academy, Sanaullah said two terrorists arrested after the attacks confessed that they lived near the Indo-Pak border and had thrice visited Amritsar for training. Sanaullah said he did not agree with Interior Adviser Rehman Malik’s statement that the recent terrorism activities in the city were not linked to each other. The minister appreciated the spirit of Rescue 1122 and announced that the service will be made available to the remaining 24 districts of the province. The rescuers would be deputed in Lahore, Faisalabad, Rawalpindi, Bahawalpur, Multan, Dera Ghazi Khan, Rahim Yar Khan, Sahiwal, Gujranwala, Sialkot, Murree and Sargodha. staff report

 

[Torpedo]

I do n t know what kind of idiots we are dealing with but all your points are baseless.

1. Indian fishing boat sported these terrorists but Indian navy and coast guard did n t.

The fishing boat was hijacked.

2. If Indians think they are such useless agency than end RAW now .So Pakistan will blame no one. (Then who was involved in 1971)

Well, many things in India are almost useless. Pakistan will blame India, with RAW or without RAW.

4. Ajmal Kasab came for suicide attack why he did n t die there. I tell you why the show must go on for India. He was RAW agent.

Because he was captured while firing at police in a close encounter. The policeman who jumped on Ajmal and held his gun died having some 5 bullets in his body. Thanks to his effort, others were able to grab him from behind and separated him from his weapons.
(By the way, attack on Police Academy in Pakistan was also suicidal, and forces got 4 of them alive. That looks more fishy than 26/11. )

 

[Hellfire]

pakomar


Sir


I don t know what kind of idiots we are dealing with but all your points are baseless.


the variety which seems to have their brains functioning on a level higher than what is medically defined as idiocy in grading of mental retardation. but after this post of yours I have begun to share your feelings.


1. Indian fishing boat sported these terrorists but Indian navy and coast guard did n t.

ok please do care to elaborate on how you differentiate between similar types of trawlers flying similar colors and no apparent weapons from far are identified whether terror related or not? i assure you the Indian Defence Forces have not yet managed to achieve this task and wont likely be able to do so in future also. Its actually humanely impossible to do so. Now I dont know about PA/PN and other related securty services .... maybe they have mastered this art and so can identify a terrorist in a mass of people just by looking am sure that is the reason why Pakistan bargained from strength to give Swat/Buner and now Haripur to Taliban and there is no terror activity in pakistan today.

2. If Indians think they are such useless agency than end RAW now .So Pakistan will blame no one. (Then who was involved in 1971)


raw is incapable to running cross border operations from afghanistan, its not worth the trouble from US.... who said they are not involved inside pakistan? ..... please quote me in one instance where I have said that they are not involved ......

3. Flash bang basic entry procedure for commandos to enter a vertical coffin (doors) .it is use to stun the enemy.


really? and do you know some concept called established field of fire and line of sight in defensive taskings? just how does one put a stun grenade into a room at the end of a real long corridor which covers the whole corridor with accurate fire and yet does not give access to attacking force to put a non-explosive projectile into the room (because maybe the doors were closed and windows barricaded for just such an eventuality?) the only way is to politely go and ask them to open the door so you can lob a few in yourself physically ..... the only option in such a case to minimise hostage casualties is to use immobilising agents against the terrorists for which chemicals designed on lines of fentanyl (like one used by russia in moscow theater siege) are useful. this causes cessation of physical activites on part of occupants of rooms be it terrorists or hostages thus renderring useless the ability to defend/cause harm to hostages.

4. Ajmal Kasab came for suicide attack why he did n t die there. I tell you why the show must go on for India. He was RAW agent.

right ....... anything else? please read about how he was captured and how pakistani security services have found his linkage to LeT ..... now LeT being raw funded is a good theory

Use the defense money to help poor people in India at least you will defeat poverty from India

oh this is not a welfare state anymore but a capitalistic ..... adopting an elitest attitude i would say that either you work or you perish ..... state can not be responsible for more than one child of poor family ....

and we do have plenty of funds for our fantasies ...... so we do that .... infact our contribution to IMf just now at US10 B immediately for meeting global meltdown post g-20 meet is definitely more than your forex reserves ... so cheers and need not be worried about India

thanks

 

[pakomar]

pakomar


Sir


I don t know what kind of idiots we are dealing with but all your points are baseless.


the variety which seems to have their brains functioning on a level higher than what is medically defined as idiocy in grading of mental retardation. but after this post of yours I have begun to share your feelings.


1. Indian fishing boat sported these terrorists but Indian navy and coast guard did n t.

ok please do care to elaborate on how you differentiate between similar types of trawlers flying similar colors and no apparent weapons from far are identified whether terror related or not? i assure you the Indian Defence Forces have not yet managed to achieve this task and wont likely be able to do so in future also. Its actually humanely impossible to do so. Now I dont know about PA/PN and other related securty services .... maybe they have mastered this art and so can identify a terrorist in a mass of people just by looking am sure that is the reason why Pakistan bargained from strength to give Swat/Buner and now Haripur to Taliban and there is no terror activity in pakistan today.

2. If Indians think they are such useless agency than end RAW now .So Pakistan will blame no one. (Then who was involved in 1971)


raw is incapable to running cross border operations from afghanistan, its not worth the trouble from US.... who said they are not involved inside pakistan? ..... please quote me in one instance where I have said that they are not involved ......

3. Flash bang basic entry procedure for commandos to enter a vertical coffin (doors) .it is use to stun the enemy.


really? and do you know some concept called established field of fire and line of sight in defensive taskings? just how does one put a stun grenade into a room at the end of a real long corridor which covers the whole corridor with accurate fire and yet does not give access to attacking force to put a non-explosive projectile into the room (because maybe the doors were closed and windows barricaded for just such an eventuality?) the only way is to politely go and ask them to open the door so you can lob a few in yourself physically ..... the only option in such a case to minimise hostage casualties is to use immobilising agents against the terrorists for which chemicals designed on lines of fentanyl (like one used by russia in moscow theater siege) are useful. this causes cessation of physical activites on part of occupants of rooms be it terrorists or hostages thus renderring useless the ability to defend/cause harm to hostages.

4. Ajmal Kasab came for suicide attack why he did n t die there. I tell you why the show must go on for India. He was RAW agent.

right ....... anything else? please read about how he was captured and how pakistani security services have found his linkage to LeT ..... now LeT being raw funded is a good theory

Use the defense money to help poor people in India at least you will defeat poverty from India

oh this is not a welfare state anymore but a capitalistic ..... adopting an elitest attitude i would say that either you work or you perish ..... state can not be responsible for more than one child of poor family ....

and we do have plenty of funds for our fantasies ...... so we do that .... infact our contribution to IMf just now at US10 B immediately for meeting global meltdown post g-20 meet is definitely more than your forex reserves ... so cheers and need not be worried about India

thanks

Then again confusing your self with your government statements. (Forget Pakistan at moment and cover your mistakes)

The problem is whole Indian defense failed in terms of intelligence, coast guard, navy and counter terrorist operation.
So poor Indian people needed an explanation and the government gives the old explanation to link the attacks with Pakistan.
By being Pakistani does n t mean that government is involved?
Only thing which put pressure on Pakistan (which it did not do) is your media playing emotional games with western world.

 

[Hellfire]

Then again confusing your self with your government statements. (Forget Pakistan at moment and cover your mistakes)

The problem is whole Indian defense failed in terms of intelligence, coast guard, navy and counter terrorist operation.
So poor Indian people needed an explanation and the government gives the old explanation to link the attacks with Pakistan.
By being Pakistani does n t mean that government is involved?
Only thing which put pressure on Pakistan (which it did not do) is your media playing emotional games with western world.

Thats a perception that you are authorised to hold and I respect your point of view. My post was a rebuttal of each and every point of yours, not stating my "government's' position who IMO really screwed up big time .....

however no one is taking an excuse of Pakistan being the reason, only Pakistan was pointed at as a source for possible future repeats and there is absolutely NO WAY that any nation can contain a determined terrorist from executing his mission. the only thing is you can minimise the casualties of the same ......

you are right by being Pakistani doe snot mean government is involved. the phraseology (which if you were to just spare some valuable time of yours to research) used by me in all my posts was 'elements within the ISI' who are advocates of repeat Afghan strategy for kashmir. now if you are confusing ISI as being your government, that ofcourse is your previlige

thanks

 

[pakomar]

Thats a perception that you are authorised to hold and I respect your point of view. My post was a rebuttal of each and every point of yours, not stating my "government's' position who IMO really screwed up big time .....

however no one is taking an excuse of Pakistan being the reason, only Pakistan was pointed at as a source for possible future repeats and there is absolutely NO WAY that any nation can contain a determined terrorist from executing his mission. the only thing is you can minimise the casualties of the same ......

you are right by being Pakistani doe snot mean government is involved. the phraseology (which if you were to just spare some valuable time of yours to research) used by me in all my posts was 'elements within the ISI' who are advocates of repeat Afghan strategy for kashmir. now if you are confusing ISI as being your government, that ofcourse is your previlige

thanks

Ok I get your point but ISI is much busier in tribal area of Pakistan. Why in the world they want to mess with India at the moment when they are dealing national security at Afghanistan border.

 

[Hellfire]

Ok I get your point but ISI is much busier in tribal area of Pakistan. Why in the world they want to mess with India at the moment when they are dealing national security at Afghanistan border.

See ISI is doing its primary role - to subvert and weaken an enemy state. Its fair. But the route they have taken (using religion as weapon) is kind of risky as a backlash is always bound to occur as invariably idiots manage to take over the whole thing as we are seeing now in this case resulting in their growing acts of defiance and violence in Pakistan. What India has maintained is that they should absolutely cut off their contact from these groups which are now more and more interlinked and one can not say that we will support the Kashmir specific groups and fight the others as all see each other as brethren and now even PA as a tool of "foreign infidels". This has to stop if PA and GoP are serious about defending their own country. Even logistical and morale support is today fraught with dangers.

The clear and present danger to Pakistan is from within and not without. If logically speaking, India was so hell bent in removing Pakistan as a state, they would have done so in 1971 when there was surrender by GoP. You may argue that PA fought a stalemate in western sector for India, but the fact is that war's an extension of political and foreign policy and as such when you conceed defeat, you are defeated.

India could have again invaded Pakistan in Parakaram days, accepting some damage in case of nuclear onfrontation. But that is not the aim today. The mere fact that Pakistan today is uniquely placed to control and finish off these threats and enhance indirectly Indian security in addition to its own, has made sure that its in India's interest for Pakistan to be unified safe.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

See ISI is doing its primary role - to subvert and weaken an enemy state.

Perhaps, but there is little to support your contention that any significant 'elements' within the ISI are acting on this. Note that were that the case, we would not be going on 7 years of relative calm and almost non-existent infiltration along the LoC.

If there are elements within the ISI, they are isolated and weak, and only able to act extremely infrequently by way of offering limited assistance to groups such as those that carried out the Mumbai attacks.

 

[Energon]

If there are elements within the ISI, they are isolated and weak, and only able to act extremely infrequently by way of offering limited assistance to groups such as those that carried out the Mumbai attacks.

There is actually quite a significant amount of evidence in regards to the involvement of the state's service personnel when it comes to assistance to these groups (not just ISI) which has greatly influenced the policies of late.

Attacks upon India aren't infrequent by any means (when taken into account the impact they create) and one Mumbai style attack is more than enough to induce a paradigm shift in perception.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

There is actually quite a significant amount of evidence in regards to the involvement of the state's service personnel when it comes to assistance to these groups (not just ISI) which has greatly influenced the policies of late.

Attacks upon India aren't infrequent by any means (when taken into account the impact they create) and one Mumbai style attack is more than enough to induce a paradigm shift in perception.

These organizations were created for a different role than the one they have morphed into. I am not challenging the interaction of State personnel with these organizations, and in some cases the creation of these organizations, by State personnel as much as I am challenging the argument that State personnel are complicit in terrorist attacks (vs the freedom movement in Kashmir), for which I have seen little to no evidence.

 

[Energon]

These organizations were created for a different role than the one they have morphed into. I am not challenging the interaction of State personnel with these organizations, and in some cases the creation of these organizations, by State personnel as much as I am challenging the argument that State personnel are complicit in terrorist attacks (vs the freedom movement in Kashmir), for which I have seen little to no evidence.

Unfortunately there is an inherent lack of sustainability in this tactic of arming insurgent groups for the sake of deniability when it comes to long drawn out conflicts, particularly with neighboring states. Ultimately the blowback is far worse than the initial conflict, the objective keeps moving further away and eventually the roof caves in and brings with it all blame regardless of it's specificity. Once the links between the state and the proxies have been established, the nature of their original purpose or how they have deviated from it no longer matters. The state is by default responsible for everything that emanates from their dominion (as they should be), particularly when they have contributed to its genesis.
The cross border violence (which has now gone out of hand) has turned into a self defeating entity by weakening Pakistan's position, further deferring a settlement and inviting an exponentially increased level of isolation and demonization. The devastating effects upon the social construct, the insurmountable financial and economic costs and the overall depressive and humiliating conditions brought on by adopting this policy is a different matter altogether.

Either way, judgment upon support for insurgency or terrorism shouldn't be limited to the perception of a cause, but rather the general outcome. The only reason I'm against Pakistan's policy in this regard is because it simply doesn't work.

As a side note, not all groups were assembled primarily with the Kashmir cause in mind. Some, like the one that carried out the Mumbai attack are derivatives of movements that were initiated in the 80s to hedge bets and target India's strategic and national interests so as to keep Pakistan competitive; Kashmir was in such cases nothing more than a recruiting tool. The evolution, MO and demographics of these groups are radically different from the few Kashmir specific organizations. That these groups now have a "global agenda" should come of no shock. International conflict through a precise and ruthless mechanism of LiC and outright terrorism is the very thing they were trained to conduct since their inception. Data from some fascinating research on this particular variant of groups has come out recently, albeit the results are nothing short of scary.

 

[Hellfire]

Perhaps, but there is little to support your contention that any significant 'elements' within the ISI are acting on this. Note that were that the case, we would not be going on 7 years of relative calm and almost non-existent infiltration along the LoC.

If there are elements within the ISI, they are isolated and weak, and only able to act extremely infrequently by way of offering limited assistance to groups such as those that carried out the Mumbai attacks.

Agnostic.

Sustainability of a high tempo of operations by any force requires a dedicated logistical support base which allow for recuperation of men and resources likewise.

While it is convinient to deflect the involvement of significant ISI resources in armed groups operating in Kashmir purely due to lack of "evidence" (no agency will come out saying yes they are invilved anyways) the mere fact that its been now over 20 years since the insurgency started and there is a gradual sophistication and precision creeping into these operations point to evolution of these groups as militant organisations. This can not in any way be without provision of minimal safe areas for staging of personnel, concentration of supplies and the set up required to provide for the arms and ammunitions to be used by these groups. Such safe havens are NOT within Indian controlled regions and the logic dictates where they are.

Now if one was to even conceed they are in Pakistani controlled areas, then these areas CANNOT operate without significant protection from the central agencies and forces. You dont need proof (of which is ample with agencies and governments all over the world) for such matters which need to be proved beyond doubt in a court of law.

 

[Hellfire]

The sustained freedom given to these operating groups to run operations independent of direct supervision of Pakistani agencies is now an albatross around the necks of GoP and PA.

While these two can be said to be honest in their approach, ISI contains elements which are powerful and inassailable or at the least, having proxies willing to work at their behest under direct protection in such "isolated" cases of ISI involvement. The whole concept of control of the said groups which now consider themselves a grand army of islam aiming to re-establish the caliphate, has totally distorted the whole scene with what were yesterday controlled stooges now turning against their master for trying to control and temper their operations/activities.

Pakistan has put its self into a position today where if it does not decisively act it is for the trouble it can do without and if it does, it first needs to root out the various sympathisers within its own ranks for such organistaions.

 

[pakomar]

See ISI is doing its primary role - to subvert and weaken an enemy state. Its fair. But the route they have taken (using religion as weapon) is kind of risky as a backlash is always bound to occur as invariably idiots manage to take over the whole thing as we are seeing now in this case resulting in their growing acts of defiance and violence in Pakistan. What India has maintained is that they should absolutely cut off their contact from these groups which are now more and more interlinked and one can not say that we will support the Kashmir specific groups and fight the others as all see each other as brethren and now even PA as a tool of "foreign infidels". This has to stop if PA and GoP are serious about defending their own country. Even logistical and morale support is today fraught with dangers.

The clear and present danger to Pakistan is from within and not without. If logically speaking, India was so hell bent in removing Pakistan as a state, they would have done so in 1971 when there was surrender by GoP. You may argue that PA fought a stalemate in western sector for India, but the fact is that war's an extension of political and foreign policy and as such when you conceed defeat, you are defeated.

India could have again invaded Pakistan in Parakaram days, accepting some damage in case of nuclear onfrontation. But that is not the aim today. The mere fact that Pakistan today is uniquely placed to control and finish off these threats and enhance indirectly Indian security in addition to its own, has made sure that its in India's interest for Pakistan to be unified safe.

RAW is doing same to Pakistan. “Every action there is equal and opposite reaction”
After 1965 war there should be no interference in Pakistan by Indians. But Indian intelligent agencies did interfere in Pakistan causing Bangladesh. That was a big loss and now it’s happening again in FATA. Your governments done Mumbai attacks to take away the attention from real issue that are involvement of RAW in FATA and resolving Kashmir issue (because Obama said that Kashmir issue must be solved).