India hints at 'Military Option' against Pakistan.

[nwmalik]

we are behaving as if we are having **** fight. Both sides shouting for support.
Both sides will suffer.
Future will be effected also.

 

[graphican]

Yes CBM's include all of this and much more..bcoz this is what will increase people to people contact as well as tangle us economically..in other words if bad relations with Pakistan is going to hamper my multi-billion$$$ trade then i will be deterred and vie-versa....Similary increased people to people contact will make my life easy when negotiating on existing conflicts...not sure why is this such a difficult thing to crack??



Do you really need to ask why?? Terrorist activities are happening because they were getting support from your establishment and we believe are still getting the same support...How can we have a joint mechanism with a party whom we believe is directly responsible for the issue in the first place?? This sounds insane, no??

Look we need to take baby steps and only then think about long jumps....I still remember that earlier Pakistan stand was how can we trade with an enemy....and now sanity has prevailed to some extent...



hmmmm care to explain some benefits internally and internationally that we get out of this...

Red part
Pakistan had offered both Joint as well as INDEPENDENT investigation who both country may trust. You cannot hide behind a suspicion which you suspect.. if you ask us, we very much believe the same for India and its establishment , which by the way has open history to induce attacks and put blame on Pakistan, like Samjhota express and Attack on Pundits at the time of Clinton's visit. And this is too lame to be pitched as an excuse.. when you have joint reports, you have 20s of people participating from both sides and they have mix of military as well as civilians + they may have people from Interpol or neutral investigating agencies. Sorry you need to find a better reason as this one didn't make sense.

Blue Part
We can have two opinions on that..rather there are two possible approaches to resolve disputes. 1) do this trade, small "baby steps" and try to reach a point where we are able to resolve bigger issues as Kashmir. If you look 15 years back, you will find Pakistan strongly insisting to resolve core disputes first while India advocating to take "baby-steps" and do confidence building first. What has happened in the past 15 years will tell you that Indian approach has proven in futile already. Both country had their daggers drawn few times while both were only taking "baby-steps" and resultant of 15 years is that we are still daggers drawn. You blame terrorism, who was responsible for Samjhota and Killing of Pundits in Kashmir and who put its blame on who?

Green Part
Now your question that why would India do that.. then observe and see.. reasons are more evident than an explanation may make you see them. Your establishment "cooks" such issues so that those baby-steps would always remain on the way, years after years because if Kashmir or any major issue is resolved, India would inevitably have to offer either a currently controlled territory or offer compensations to Pakistan and they don't have a gain in doing that. Why would they not want to keep "baby-steps" always on?

Look at another aspect through the lens of Politics.. Pakistan has 3 major parties and everybody is in the favor of keeping smooth relationship with India while it is not the "stated" policy of any of the Indian parties. Think why is that? You will bring terrorism as an excuse here but go 15,20 years back when there was no "terrorism" either in Kashmir nor elsewhere in India - yet - Indian stances were as much unfavorable to resolution of disputes as they are today.

 

[Black Eagle 90]

India hints at retaliation against Pakistan.
Last updated 19:43 08/08/2013
REUTERS

CONFLICT: Indian Army Chief General Bikram Singh (C) salutes in front of the coffins of Indian soldiers during a wreath laying ceremony at the technical airport in Jammu in this August 7, 2013 handout photo from the Indian Ministry of Defence.

India for the first time directly accused the Pakistan army of involvement in an ambush in which five Indian soldiers were killed, and said the incident would hurt warming relations with its neighbor and hinted at possible military retaliation.

"Our restraint should not be taken for granted, nor should the capacity of our armed forces and resolve of the government to uphold the sanctity of the Line of Control ever be doubted," Defense Minister A.K. Antony told parliament on Thursday, referring to the de facto border dividing the disputed Himalayan territory of Kashmir.

"It is now clear that specialist troops of Pakistan army were involved in this attack," he said.

Pakistan has denied any involvement in Tuesday's attack, possibly the worst such incident since the two nuclear-armed rivals signed a ceasefire in 2003.

- Reuters

India Hints At Retaliation Against Pakistan | Stuff.co.nz

I think Army should place AAA guns and MANPADs along with Indian border and not to forget sindh as well.

Also PN also needs to strengthen AAA guns and MANPADs in coastal areas too and try to acquire some SPADA-2000 alternative from China.

 

[deckingraj]

...liked the color coding...now let me reply..

Red part
Pakistan had offered both Joint as well as INDEPENDENT investigation who both country may trust. You cannot hide behind a suspicion which you suspect.. if you ask us, we very much believe the same for India and its establishment , which by the way has open history to induce attacks and put blame on Pakistan, like Samjhota express and Attack on Pundits at the time of Clinton's visit. And this is too lame to be pitched as an excuse.. when you have joint reports, you have 20s of people participating from both sides and they have mix of military as well as civilians + they may have people from Interpol or neutral investigating agencies. Sorry you need to find a better reason as this one didn't make sense.

The reason is actually very valid and very strong..Unfortunately either you don't want to understand it or don't understand how a joint mechanism works....look i am not shying away from joint mechanism however as said we need to first take baby steps...Your side hasn't even managed to give us a freaking MFN status now pending for years and you are talking about some joint mechanism when we know the party to crime is sitting with us and trying to help us resolve the issue??

Also when you say independent investigation whom you propose that party to be?? US/China/Russia...UN...who?? Do you in all fairness think this is workable??

Blue Part
We can have two opinions on that..rather there are two possible approaches to resolve disputes. 1) do this trade, small "baby steps" and try to reach a point where we are able to resolve bigger issues as Kashmir. If you look 15 years back, you will find Pakistan strongly insisting to resolve core disputes first while India advocating to take "baby-steps" and do confidence building first. What has happened in the past 15 years will tell you that Indian approach has proven in futile already. Both country had their daggers drawn few times while both were only taking "baby-steps" and resultant of 15 years is that we are still daggers drawn. You blame terrorism, who was responsible for Samjhota and Killing of Pundits in Kashmir and who put its blame on who?

Indian approach has already proven futile?? Buddy comon...u r a much better informed poster than this...May i humbly ask you when did Pakistan followed the suggested Indian approach?? Also when did Pakistan helped the issue resolution cause?? You want India to resolve core issues with a view in mind that CBMs are not required and with consistent support to terrorism, how funny?? You are bringing Samjhota here...was Samjhota a bigger incident than Kargil/Mumbai?? Look i am not trying to undermine Samjhota here however just trying to pass on a simple point....Unless and until the environment is not congenial there is not going to be any resolution...Now what can bring in congenial environment...CBG's....with the amount of distrust we have for each other what kind of CBGs are possible...baby steps...Look we have followed this policy in east as well and it is working...

Green Part
Now your question that why would India do that.. then observe and see.. reasons are more evident than an explanation may make you see them. Your establishment "cooks" such issues so that those baby-steps would always remain on the way, years after years because if Kashmir or any major issue is resolved, India would inevitably have to offer either a currently controlled territory or offer compensations to Pakistan and they don't have a gain in doing that. Why would they not want to keep "baby-steps" always on?

Why do you think India will have to compensate Pakistan without getting anythink equivalent or more in return?? What made you think any resolution of Kashmir would be a loss to India and only gain for Pakistan...Do you think we are that Naive?? I am sorry sir this explanation doesn't hold ground...In fact the only reason you are continuing support to terrorism is to get some leverage when you sit on the negotation table...So Sir, sorry but India's position is way stronger than yours viz-a-viz Kashmir and whenever we will have the resolution it will be heavily loaded in India's favor...mark my words...

Look at another aspect through the lens of Politics.. Pakistan has 3 major parties and everybody is in the favor of keeping smooth relationship with India while it is not the "stated" policy of any of the Indian parties. Think why is that? You will bring terrorism as an excuse here but go 15,20 years back when there was no "terrorism" either in Kashmir nor elsewhere in India - yet - Indian stances were as much unfavorable to resolution of disputes as they are today.

Why would any Political party will have a stated policy on a subject matter which is not a core issue for us?? Comon buddy this is common sense...Kashmir sells in Pakistan but not in India...Having said that we still haven't forgotten the same political parties who were in Power in 99 when your Military were busy sabotaging all the good work done...Sharm el-Sheikh was another big bold move by our PM and your side gifted him with Mumbai...So please don't accuse us of being the spoil support...Also i have lot to say about the history and who did what..but let's not go that back..otherwise we will end up discussing the entire India-Pakistan history....

 

[graphican]

...liked the color coding...now let me reply..

The reason is actually very valid and very strong..Unfortunately either you don't want to understand it or don't understand how a joint mechanism works....look i am not shying away from joint mechanism however as said we need to first take baby steps...Your side hasn't even managed to give us a freaking MFN status now pending for years and you are talking about some joint mechanism when we know the party to crime is sitting with us and trying to help us resolve the issue??

Also when you say independent investigation whom you propose that party to be?? US/China/Russia...UN...who?? Do you in all fairness think this is workable??

Why not workable? Are there no mediators? Interpol? UN? What about India/Pakistan both putting 50% to constitute investigating body including and to address your concerns, having neutral observers from China, Russia, USA, UAE or whoever you guys want? Has India ever tried to put for a suggestion? Problem is not that there is no solutions, problem is that there is no problem identified. India shies away whenever such proposals are made and its always India who refuses that. What on earth scares you? If you think its Pakistan army, rather ISI involved... this your GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY to expose them to the world and I bet if you know this is the case you wouldn't miss this opportunity. Why is the reluctance then.. Who is afraid of loosing something and what is that it is afraid of revealing?

MFN is pinching point? You are stopping our water-supply! Are you even serious when you say "Freaking MFN" VS what is freaking Pakistan?

Indian approach has already proven futile?? Buddy comon...u r a much better informed poster than this...May i humbly ask you when did Pakistan followed the suggested Indian approach?? Also when did Pakistan helped the issue resolution cause?? You want India to resolve core issues with a view in mind that CBMs are not required and with consistent support to terrorism, how funny?? You are bringing Samjhota here...was Samjhota a bigger incident than Kargil/Mumbai?? Look i am not trying to undermine Samjhota here however just trying to pass on a simple point....Unless and until the environment is not congenial there is not going to be any resolution...Now what can bring in congenial environment...CBG's....with the amount of distrust we have for each other what kind of CBGs are possible...baby steps...Look we have followed this policy in east as well and it is working...

Red
You don't need an introductory line from a country to say "okay friends, we are going to follow Indian suggested line now". Can you look back 15 years and see what went and how it went? Pakistan has gone so soft following Indian suggestion that they had stopped calling Kashmir as Dispute and rather MUSH and Zardari used to describe it as "Kashmir Issue". As if this was a malaria issue being discussed.

Green
We ARE talking about moving forward and bring terrorists to books. We seek cooperation from India which it refuses to offer. Think about it. Hafiz Saeed is the biggest terrorist to you guys? You guys don't have half proof to put him behind the bars. Pakistan had asked joint investigation so proofs could be collected and he could be prosecuted by Supreme Court but you know what next. Think - allegations are easy as even you in your personal capacity can make 10000s, just as I can, but proving and bringing terrorists to justice is needed by the people on both side. But justice is not seeked by India because everything which it needed is being earned through allegations alone. Think.

Why do you think India will have to compensate Pakistan without getting anythink equivalent or more in return?? What made you think any resolution of Kashmir would be a loss to India and only gain for Pakistan...Do you think we are that Naive?? I am sorry sir this explanation doesn't hold ground...In fact the only reason you are continuing support to terrorism is to get some leverage when you sit on the negotiation table...So Sir, sorry but India's position is way stronger than yours viz-a-viz Kashmir and whenever we will have the resolution it will be heavily loaded in India's favor...mark my words.

Reality is proving your argument wrong. If India could get leverages through Kashmir then India must had settled the issue to its favour already. Second, India had already suggested to make LOC as permanent border which Musharaf refused. Its not secret and you will learn about it if you slightly dig down on the subject. So you assumption of resolution benefiting India has already been rebutted in history. Besides.. India must have been pushing for resolution and final settlement if it knew its position was that strong.

Why would any Political party will have a stated policy on a subject matter which is not a core issue for us?? Comon buddy this is common sense...Kashmir sells in Pakistan but not in India... Having said that we still haven't forgotten the same political parties who were in Power in 99 when your Military were busy sabotaging all the good work done...Sharm el-Sheikh was another big bold move by our PM and your side gifted him with Mumbai...So please don't accuse us of being the spoil support...Also i have lot to say about the history and who did what..but let's not go that back..otherwise we will end up discussing the entire India-Pakistan history....

Blue
That explains whole Indian mindset and also explains why India wouldn't ever want to discuss and resolve such matters. They are not core issues because? Not because India is not in pain because of them, 6000K of Indian Army is controlling one little valley.. Kashmir is not the paint point because this is less harmful for India the way it is. That point also explains that "baby-steps" are actually going to stay "baby-steps" and actual issues wouldn't be discussed for another 15 to 50 years. That is why Pakistan's point becomes justified and valid that "baby-steps" are delaying tactic and that is not an apprehension, it is also proven on ground.

 

[Al Bhatti]

Nothing will happen, relax everyone.

Next month you all will still be surfing this forum. And then after a certain period same thing will repeat, again.

 

[Slayer786]

just wait few months.

Why wait?
We are waiting.............................Attack us.

 

[deckingraj]

I am trying to be as fair as possible...and i know u r replying back in the same token..so thanks for that...

Why not workable? Are there no mediators? Interpol? UN? What about India/Pakistan both putting 50% to constitute investigating body including and to address your concerns, having neutral observers from China, Russia, USA, UAE or whoever you guys want? Has India ever tried to put for a suggestion? Problem is not that there is no solutions, problem is that there is no problem identified. India shies away whenever such proposals are made and its always India who refuses that. What on earth scares you?

Look why India shy away from mediation is for couple of reasons...
a) I have already explained why we don't want Pakistan to be a part of joint investigation atleast "at this stage". There is no trust and it will take time before we start trusting the same hands who have bitten us many times and as per our view still continuing the same policy...
b) Pakistan has always tried to internationalize Kashmir issue whereas our view is to solve it bilaterally...Bringing in UN/USA/Russia/China or anyone here is contrary to our long stated stand.

If you think its Pakistan army, rather ISI involved... this your GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY to expose them to the world and I bet if you know this is the case you wouldn't miss this opportunity. Why is the reluctance then.. Who is afraid of loosing something and what is that it is afraid of revealing?

Already explained above...It is not a matter of being afraid....

MFN is pinching point? You are stopping our water-supply! Are you even serious when you say "Freaking MFN" VS what is freaking Pakistan?

Do you really believe the above written rhetoric? In your first point you are suggesting to have a neutral body...now in this specific case you are not even listening to a neutral body...may i humbly ask why??

Red
You don't need an introductory line from a country to say "okay friends, we are going to follow Indian suggested line now". Can you look back 15 years and see what went and how it went? Pakistan has gone so soft following Indian suggestion that they had stopped calling Kashmir as Dispute and rather MUSH and Zardari used to describe it as "Kashmir Issue". As if this was a malaria issue being discussed.

Honestly last 15 years your record is not very good either...anyhow i am not looking for those introductory lines...what i am looking for is change on ground...Where are we with our CBG's?? I am sure you are aware of the fact that MMS and Mush were very close in solving Kashmir...do u know why?? After mush agreed to cease fire on LOC things moved very fast...Both sides made lot of progress..see the beauty of peaceful borders!!....however unfortunately pakistan got plagued with Political trouble and later on Mumbai pushed us many years back...this is why CBG's are important...it will give our leaders a fair chance to bring peace to this region...We aren't asking much either...just do your bit in stopping your funded brethrens and concentrate on trade...give back door diplomacy a fair chance...it can do wonderful things...

Green
We ARE talking about moving forward and bring terrorists to books. We seek cooperation from India which it refuses to offer. Think about it. Hafiz Saeed is the biggest terrorist to you guys? You guys don't have half proof to put him behind the bars. Pakistan had asked joint investigation so proofs could be collected and he could be prosecuted by Supreme Court but you know what next. Think - allegations are easy as even you in your personal capacity can make 10000s, just as I can, but proving and bringing terrorists to justice is needed by the people on both side. But justice is not seeked by India because everything which it needed is being earned through allegations alone. Think.

I am thinking...but may i ask you to reciprocate please?? India can't provide you proofs that will satisfy you unless and until you want to..but is Pakistan serious in bringing them to justice?? Do i really need to remind you the attitude of Pakistan about the identity of Kasab?? Look let's not talk much about it...Mumbai attacks is one saga where there are undenialble proofs(call them leads if that makes you happy)..therafter it was planned and executed from Pakistan...it is your responsibility to bring those leads to logical conclusion...have you done that in a fair manner??

Reality is proving your argument wrong. If India could get leverages through Kashmir then India must had settled the issue to its favour already. Second, India had already suggested to make LOC as permanent border which Musharaf refused. Its not secret and you will learn about it if you slightly dig down on the subject. So you assumption of resolution benefiting India has already been rebutted in history. Besides.. India must have been pushing for resolution and final settlement if it knew its position was that strong.

Ummm.....here you are completely wrong...please tell me how is your position stronger than India's viz-a-viz Kashmir...i would certainly love to know.....as far as your example - thing about it...why did Mushy refused to convert LOC into border...or why does India even offered it?? Will we offer something where we believe we are going to be the losing side??..what does that imply...If LOC becomes border Pakistan finds herself to be on losing streak.. Buddy the current status quo is hugely in our favor...and this is a fact!!

Blue
That explains whole Indian mindset and also explains why India wouldn't ever want to discuss and resolve such matters. They are not core issues because? Not because India is not in pain because of them, 6000K of Indian Army is controlling one little valley.. Kashmir is not the paint point because this is less harmful for India the way it is. That point also explains that "baby-steps" are actually going to stay "baby-steps" and actual issues wouldn't be discussed for another 15 to 50 years. That is why Pakistan's point becomes justified and valid that "baby-steps" are delaying tactic and that is not an apprehension, it is also proven on ground.

hmmmm u got me wrong there..not sure why?? Kashmir is very sensitive issue for us...India's response throughout our history is a testamount to that...however unlike yours Kashmir issue is not part of our domestic political system.....This further explains my point above...we believe status quo favors us and thus you will not find any objections in India whenever soembody talks about converting LOC into IB...As long as we are not going to lose an inch of land that we hold we are all fine...

hmmmm if not baby-steps then what other suggestions you have...Wars you have tried and failed...Terrorism you have tried and failed...is there anything else left in the book..if so please let me know...

 

[Glorino]

Pakistan Post 17 August 2013
As Pakistan Falls apart, India launches its first home made Air Craft Carrier

BEIJING: The launch of INS Vikrant has raised hackles in China, with Chinese defence experts saying the aircraft carrier would have great significance for India as it would allow the Indian Navy to wade into the Pacific Ocean - which Beijing considers as its backyard. It is also a reminder to Pakistan, which is fighting insurgencies and its people who are upset with their own army for corruption and waging wars on its citizens, and is practically breaking apart,
”This bears great significance to Indian Navy. It makes India only the fifth country after the US, Russia, Britain and France to have such capabilities,” senior captain Zhang Junshe, vice-president of China’s Naval Research Institute, told the state-run CCTV on Monday. The Indian Navy will have lead over China as it will have two aircraft carriers by the end of this year with INS Vikramaditya, the refitted carrier from Russia joining INS Viraat, which is already in service even though Vikrant was expected to be operational by 2018, he said.
“Which means by the end of this year India will become the only country in Asia to have two aircraft carriers. This will enhance the overall capabilities especially the power projection capabilities of the Indian Navy,” Zhang said.